DA Question on Thalians

Of course you need the tech in question to get those bonuses. Getting a newer tech doesn't yield you the bonuses of unresearched older techs.

I thought as much.

Now, the second and larger Q is, what happens to the extra research points?

That is, when one researches a tech and generates more research points than needed, the extra is carried over to the next higher tech in that same line.  What happens when one researches a "retro-tech" and already has the next higher tech?  What happens to the carry-over research pints?  Are they lost?

From personal observation, the tp carry over to the next tech in the tree. I've actually picked up two techs in one turn when researching low level techs late in the game. From GalCiv2 Wiki, if the tech you are researching has no followup tech, the extra tp are wasted.

I knew that ,if the researched tech was the last in its line, then the points were lost.

My Q is what if one has tech #1 and 3 but not 2, 4, 5, etc. and one then researches #2 and has extra points when it is reasearched on that turn?  Do the points go away because one already has #3?  Or, are they applied to #4?

In the case of Planetary Improvements, one may well want the three +10% bonuses, but what happens to the extra points if one is the Thalians?

They are, as would be expected, lost.

I feared as much.

--- sigh ---

Removes some of the advantages of the Tahlians, though.  I wonder if the AI ever goes back and researches those "retro-techs"?

Yes the AI does research those techs. And I wouldn't call it a disadvantage. If losing a few research points bothers you so much, when you're just about done researching the tech in question reduce your research slider until it shows that it will take 2 turns to research it and then raise the slider one notch so that it goes back to 1 turn. That way you'll minimize the research point loss. I'd advice you to do the same at the end of the research branches.

this doesn't hold true for all branches of the tree, for example, you'll get a RP carryover after "Sensors IV" or "Total Majesty" which will be taken in to other branches of the tree as well.

And I think that there are more such "carryover endtechs", although I can't say for sure if the RP overflow will carry into all other branches or just a few specific ones. Problem is I have a very organized way to research and will use the same order over and over again, and in this order I will use this carryover to get a following tech in one turn, which usually would have taken two turns.

You're research carries over to "Xeno Farm Construction I". Always when a branch splits up into several other branches the game will pick the middle tech to go on with research automatically, e.g. in case of researching "Advanced Computing" "Research Centers" are always next...

No, the game will not proceed to research #4, but stop researching - as when the end of the tree is reached.

However, your remaining RP's will carryover into other techs - at least, they will do in the Thalan's example of researching "Galactic Warfare".

and please note that the game won't show you this RP carryover at all, ie. you could even turn all your production to 0%, then select a tiny tech - and the game will tell you "never". But on turn-processing you might as well get this one if you have enough carryover.

finally, the carryover will even overflow multiple times, that is, if you have an über-research output and only research smaller techs - or limit the number of techs that can be researched within one turn due to lesser planet count - the overflow will even stack. It can become so big, esp. on very fast research speed, that, at one time, I would go on researching for five turns although my bc-balance was under -500bcs already.

I do use sliders and take planets off research focus to avoid losing research points in those cases.  In the cases where it is a 'retro-tech," there is still a serious loss of time or efficiency.  In the war techs lines that branch out from a common root, I thought the Thalians started with the second +10% mil prod bonus tech (Space Mil) but not the first +10% tech (Galactic Warfare).  Thus, researching the "retro-tech" of Galactic Warfare and having more than needed points will lead to loss of points/efficiency/time (since Space Mil is already researched).

For example, by the time I'm building a military and assuming tech trading off so I can't fill in the tech that way, I face the decision of what to do.  The Galactic Warfare tech costs something like 25 points, but I'm generating several times that amount each turn.

If i pass up the tech, I'm missing the 10% ship production bonus.  If I throttle down Research generation to avoid simply wasting the points, I have missed applying 100 or many more research points to something else.  Essentially, I have "lost" that difference in research points.

In the extreme case, suppose one delayed creating a military until late and were generating 500+ research points in a turn and applied all 500 to Galactic Warfare. 

W/O Space Mil:  one might get Galactic Warfare, Space Mil, Space Weapons, Beam theory (say), and laser I.  (or the equivalent down another track, or even a Defense path, depending on how the path is laid out.)

W/ Space Mil: one would get Galactic Warfare and all the rest would be lost.

Yes?

No no, not at all.

Assuming you make a straight 500 RPs per turn:

The remaining 475 RPs will carry over and be added to your RPs of the next turn = 475 + 500 = 975 RP's.

***

You can easily backckeck this by setting up a game ZYW style, very fast res speed, all-rare, one enemy. Control-N until a PreCursorLib is on your planet.

Rushbuy one lab onto it, slider full research, set "Galactic Warfare", end turn. You will research this tech.

Next turn halt all production/reseach and toggle "Xeno Communication" to research. End turn. The RP carryover will give you "Xeno Communication" & "Universal Translator".

Yes, in this situation the game will actually proceed in a straight line to go on and research "Beam Weapon Theory" after "Space Weapons". But this is not an exception to the rule - because "Space Weapons" itself yields a beam-weapon (Particle Beam), ergo, belongs to this branch of the tree.

The w/o Space Militerization scenario is well known.

Are you saying that excess research points can carry-over in a non-path-specific way?  That is, i often see that i have gained a tech or two and also made some progress on one more in a single turn ("carry-over").  But that carry-over was on the previous path, not able to be re-directed to a new path. 

Did your ZYW example use the Thalians?  You have really done that?

If so, then the extra research points are not lost after all, counter to what i had thought.  I can't wait to try this!

Yes, exactly. I use this in every game even multiple times - if used wisely, you can research more techs than usual.

This is not what I ment with "carry-over" or overflow.

What I ment is that RP of turn 1 will flow additionally into the production of turn 2.

This can have only 3 reasons:

1) end of tree

2) RP's still not replenished after researching +1 techs as the player has planets under control.

3) research hits into an already researched tech.

Notes on

1) some ends of the tree will consume the RP's fully - e.g. all 3 weapons. Carry-over isn't possible there.

2) in DL the "+1" is void.

3) if this happens at a crossection of different branches of the tree - the research will sometimes continue on another branch instead.

To be precise - when this situation as you describe (in the quote) happens then this does prove that NO carry-over did happen; ie. RP's were directed into a tech and got completely sated into the tech.

So, you see, an indicator of this carr-over is most likely when your research comes to halt at the exact end of a tech, ie. the new turn begins and the new tech in the the queue is entirely untouched.

Another indicator of an existing RP overflow is when your SurveyVessel/ FlagShip encounters an anomaly such as the "1bc lucky day"anomaly and suddenly, the queued tech is researched - or, if the carry-over wasn't big enough - its time goes down.

Yes, 2 hours ago, before I posted my reply. This thread arose my interest as I use this feature every time - although usually never on pre-requisite techs. So I wanted to see how it will work.

BTW it works exactly the same with all races.

Indeed. But as I said, there are many exceptions in the techtree. and if you don't know, simply test it.

Before ending a turn, quicksave, then proceed.

Next turn, kill all production and end turn. If "carry-over"/overflow is there, you will see it in the decrease of time a new tech needs to be researched.

Once you know, reload your quicksave.

I think the games research system works like your RP's are kinda filled into a *pool* - from which the techs are researched at the end of the turn.

However, when something stops that, or it comes to halt, then, on specific situations, the RPs are funded back or flow back to this pool - and although you can't see or access this from nowhere in the game it is there, and you can direct it towards other techs in the tree.

And as your RP's flow into this pool every turn it will stack with the overflow RPs that are already in there.