The Research Cost/AI Behavior Problem

I finally have enough of a handle on what I think is going on here conceptually to warrant me creating a post. Hopefully Frogboy will glance at this so I'll strive for brevity.

In regard to the tech costs increasing, I call it "scaling" which is a doubling of the research cost of weapon and invasion technologies. Nothing else scales, including defense, which I found interesting.

It appears to happen to all races,  so it is not tech tree-specific. Nor is it specific to a particular branch or piece of tech. My first few observations of scaling occurred after researching factory techs, so initially I believed that caused it. But I was incorrect. Scaling can also happen multiple times to the same race in the same game, which is why this problem is so noticable and game-changing.

What I believe causes scaling is something in the code that says essentially this: When a player (person or AI) has researched far enough along in 1 or more tech branches, the game figures that this player's infrastructure and total tech level is sufficient for a fairness balance to occur, and this balance is the scaling of their weapon and invasion technologies.

This explains why some AI appear to act so strangely. Scaling can boost the costs to levels that prohibit any competitive or even "barely keeping up" offensive research. I observed the Terrans fairly early on with Industrial Centers and a fair amount of other tech, yet zero weaponry. I got my spy info level to advanced and saw they had no weapon or invasion techs. In my experience, Terrans and Thalans suffer from this most often, but I've seen Altarians, Arcean, Yor, and Drengin(once) to varying degrees as well, though much less often.

I do not see this behavior in the Torians or Korath, and though I believe the problem affects them, they must somehow reduce its impact by their AI behavior, perhaps due to their leader personality and how they pick techs to research.

Races that seem to "spread it around", meaning tech diversification, appear to suffer most from this. However, those that stick to 1 or 2 branches appear far less affected, although I'd wager they still take a hit now and then. The instances of races building lots of defenseless ships is the AI knowing it has to build ships and acting on it, yet not having any weaponry to equip due to scaling problems.

I have save games showing scaling. I have some before and after files because I have no idea what shows up in a save file that could be found useful. I don't think I can use smart exception because the game does not crash.

 

 

8,397 views 9 replies
Reply #1 Top

...
Races that seem to "spread it around", meaning tech diversification, appear to suffer most from this. However, those that stick to 1 or 2 branches appear far less affected, although I'd wager they still take a hit now and then
...
End of quote

One of the first interesting posts I've seen around here on that topic, well done, especially bringing up the fact that most of the strange AI behaviour could be the result of the technology scaling!

With regards to the point above, I think that's easily explained: after quite a bit of tech diversification, most of the cheap technologies are gone so any scaling effect will result in the cheapeast useful technology available in any branch being prohibitively expensive. (E.g. they are left with technologies that would have cost at least 10 weeks without scaling, now costing them say 40 weeks because of scaling)
Whereas if the AI has left some branches untouched, the first few technologies in those branches will still be reasonably cheap. (E.g. there are technologies available that would have cost 3 weeks without scaling, now costing them 10 weeks due to scaling, which might still seem an "interesting" move to the AI).

Reply #2 Top

One of the first interesting posts I've seen around here on that topic, well done, especially bringing up the fact that most of the strange AI behaviour could be the result of the technology scaling!
End of quote

 

Thank you B) I'm glad I was able to shed light on the issue in a post that was not too boring to fully read heh.

 

after quite a bit of tech diversification, most of the cheap technologies are gone so any scaling effect will result in the cheapest useful technology available in any branch being prohibitively expensive
End of quote

 

Exactly, and because of this, AI's that actually are quite normal exhibit seemingly weird behavior as a direct result of these prohibitively expensive weapon and invasion technologies. Examples of this behavior being the creation of tons of defenseless "fighter" ships or not even having the ability to construct troop transports.

 

Whereas if the AI has left some branches untouched, the first few technologies in those branches will still be reasonably cheap.(E.g. there are technologies available that would have cost 3 weeks without scaling, now costing them 10 weeks due to scaling, which might still seem an "interesting" move to the AI).
End of quote

 

Indeed, and with the solid research base they most likely have at this point, these cheap techs provide a quick but small benefit, leaving nothing but insanely pricey and time-consuming techs. And yes, the AI's will still desire to research those pricey techs, but they will be difficult or practically impossible due to them probably being conquered by that time.

Reply #3 Top

I just played my first ToA immense map and was about to post "What is up with weapons research" when I saw this post.... my kinetic beams (1st beam weapons) took longer than high end tech to research - making the game quite strange.

Is this specific only to ToA?  If so, although it will suck to lose the diverse race tech trees, I will probably go back to DL since I want a competitive game more than anything without any cheating (I am not a guru of gaming, but like the AI and myself on equal footing - "Tough" level I think?)

Hoping this only happens in ToA - I bought all 3 at once - so maybe I'll backtrack to DL?

I thought Stardock was famous for patching and fixing?  Hasn't ToA been out quite a while now?  I bought it late on purpose hoping to avoid most "big" game bugs - but this is my first time in a long time browsing the forums and I'm reading tons of problems with ToA that seem game-breaking :( 

I'm bummed because I was excited to see each race have different techs/buildings - but not if it means a broken game.

Reply #4 Top

I thought Stardock was famous for patching and fixing?  Hasn't ToA been out quite a while now?  I bought it late on purpose hoping to avoid most "big" game bugs - but this is my first time in a long time browsing the forums and I'm reading tons of problems with ToA that seem game-breaking

 

+1. It's even worse for me, since I just bought the ultimate version. Pre patch (straight out of the box), you could change which game (expansion) you played, but with the latest patch this option has disappeared, and it seems you are 'forced' to play TOA- with all the bugginess this implies.

 

How hard would it be for stardock to actually DOCUMENT their changes, so we know how the tech scaling works, instead of groping in the dark?

Reply #5 Top

I am pretty sure that you can still play the latest patched versions of DL and DA - you just need to click the appropriate executables. For me, the GC2DarkAvatar.exe file in the <drive:>\Games\Stardock Games\GalCiv2Ultimate\DarkAvatar folder does the job.

Reply #6 Top

The OP matches pretty much my own observations.

I did however see the increase for other techs as well, not just weapon and invasion techs.
It's stronger there though, as they are more expensive in the first place and I think they maybe get a higher multiplyer than other techs.

As far as I can tell, Stardock has been pretty silent on this issue/feature, I would like to read a bit more about the exact mechanisms at work and wether they are working as intended.

So far what seems to lessen the problem for me (and how it affects the AI) is to play with faster research rate, tech brokering on and surrendering off.
Someone else also suggested manually giving the AI players personalities that are able to cope better with the inflation (e.g. Torians).

Anyway, in my recent games, using the above setup the AI has been doing pretty well. The increase still hurts, but mostly because it can take me so awfully long to research some better weapons (creativity helps).

Reply #7 Top

Interesting post.:star:   Playing as the Terrans almost exclusively I have not noticed this scaling until late in the game. I must admit that I do use Tech Trading and Tech brokering throughout the game and that by midway most of the races are pretty even tech wise unless I have not been trading with them. The races I have not been trading with seem to concentrate their research on weapons to the exclusion of all else so that by end game they are powerful attack wise but pretty much defenseless and have extremely unhappy citizens so planets "flip" fairly easily. Seldom have any major conflicts and wind up winning with a Diplomatic Victory from having an alliance with everybody that survives.

Do notice that certain races do faster research than what should be possible, IE: going from Extreme Colinization to having all the techs for Aquatic, Heavy Grav, Etc in less than a month! The Torians, Thalians, Iconians, Krydians, and Korx do this more often than any of the other races...although the Korath seem to get weapons tech at a faster than normal rate more often than not.

Still something I will keep an eye out for. Kudos

Reply #8 Top

I play with tech brokering/trading enabled, surrenders off, and very fast tech.  I have noticed the AI will get to a certain point in research and then slow down quite a bit.  It seems fairly random what research paths a particular race takes from game to game, it makes for different behavior every time.  As an  example, if a race goes for extreme colonization right away, they will do poorly in weapons.  Or, if a race goes for weapons right away, they will do poorly at extreme colonization.

I don't have issue with tech inflation myself because I usually have enough research horsepower to blast through to the end of a weapons branch by the time I want to.  Setting very fast tech in the game setup helps a lot.  In any case, it's only the weapons branches that see the heavy inflation (red techs).  I have not noticed it higher than 3x on any of the other techs.  I've seen it approach 8x on weapons techs.  Also, the original post was dated before the 2.03 update so maybe something has changed from 2.02 to 2.03?

Reply #9 Top

There is a setting in "pre-game" that allows for Tech Research speed. It does effect the scaling. Try using the 'slow' tech setting. It will slow everyone down and cause the tech to progress at a more even scale. AGAIN, Random Events can skew these results...