Please explain why the AI isn't broken

Am I missing something, or is the AI just completely braindead? After coasting through some Terran games at easier levels, I decided to try something different and give it a shot with the Drengin at Tough. This is with updated Ultimate/ToA. Settings were for a medium-sized galaxy, no tech brokering, all VC's enabled, use max CPU, otherwise default. I figured the Drengin early strategy would be to raid a potentially powerful builder neighbor and destroy some infrastructure in order to set them back enough that I could tech Invasion before they got medium size ships. While I was at it, I'd take a couple resources and hold them with my early fleets to help offset my poor building skills. Well, the Terrans are next door to me... they should fit the bill perfectly.

After building a few fighters and moving them into range, I pull the trigger, wipe and replace an influence resource, shoot down a couple colonies/constructors/miners, and blow up their asteroid mines for good measure. Fine so far... I was well coordinated and they were surprised. Now, what I'd expect is that the Terrans turn their still-considerable resources to building some fighters and eventually reclaim their space. Instead, for the next 30 turns or so, they continue to research building techs, all the while pumping out 0-attack "defender" ships for me to destroy every couple turns. WTF? I mean... OK, maybe you figure Planetary Invasion is a ways off so you'll give up your space temporarily while building a stronger engine to research the weapon techs just before the Transports come online. That's plausible. But throwing production (and money) into dead-meat, 0-attack defenders for 30 turns? That's completely ridiculous. For all the bashing the Civ AI (sometimes deservedly) takes, it's nowhere close to being *that* dumb. I'd guess I killed about 60 defenders all told.

All the while, Jenna Casey steadfastly refuses to give up even a single tech for peace, so we just stay at war. In the meantime, I also fought another, similar war with the Thalans, wiped out all their starbases, and took more influence and research resources. I'm now at a total of 1 morale, 2 influence, and 3 research resource bases, most of which had at least two constructors invested. I eventually call the Thalan war off, maybe for a tech or maybe because I was bored or because I wanted the ships elsewhere. I don't recall.

Transports eventually come online and I capture Earth. Before this point, I was briefly considering whether the real game would be avoiding an economic death spiral, as my costs were getting pretty high. That was actually looking like an interesting problem. However, Earth had an Innovation Center on an Influence booster tile. Between that and my +20% influence from resources, my influence area instantly doubles or triples, flipping a nearby Terran colony on the next turn. My income goes from -70 per turn to +70 per turn due to the new tourism revenue. There goes the interesting economic dilemma. A few turns later, another Transport rolls up to one of the last two Terran colonies. Jenna calls, and now she's feeling generous, giving up all her tech (about 2000 points worth) for peace. I take it, then attack her anyway. None of the other civs bat an eye. Again, WTF? Nobody ever thought this was a problem?

Five turns ago, I was a backwards crew of barbarians with huge bills to pay. Now I have a stable economy, a vast military, and a slight tech edge over everyone but the Altairians. Presumably, they'll do the same thing I've seen them do in every game and research 1000's of points in the Invasion branch, yet never launch a single fighter and eventually just get wiped out. If I hadn't quit out of boredom, I'd leave them alone and finish off the single-planet, no-military Thalans next, picking up a couple more resources in the process, then take out the Altairians. That would probably net me an influence win right there, as even without the Thalan territory I owned nearly half the map, all before the end of the second year. If the Altairians actually managed to build a ship of any quality, I could just take out the Krynn instead.

Please, tell me there's just something wrong with my configuration, because this isn't even fun. This game has been out for years. People seem to play it and enjoy it. It wins praise specifically for the quality of the AI. But as far as I can tell, this game is just fundamentally idiotic and broken, not to mention full of interface blunders and other annoyances. I'm sure I could crank the difficulty some more - eventually the AI will just tech through half their trees and finally build some ships before I can invade. But that's hardly very rewarding, certainly much less so than Civ4, which at least attempts to put up a fight even though it often stumbles on tactical details. Something about this game keeps people playing it, but I sure can't see what it is apart from pretty starships. I'd certainly like to figure it out, because I think the underlying mechanics of the game are pretty neat. But unless someone can convince me otherwise, I'm going to have to give up on this one.

19,731 views 16 replies
Reply #1 Top

I made a couple of posts recently roughly to the same effect as yours. The AI in ToA is thoroughly idiotic, despite the numerous claims to the contrary. It's very passive, responds poorly to player actions, does many *very* stupid things, and in general can't see the (strategic) forest for the trees. 

Since I'm a relatively new player, I'm not sure if people people just look at the AI through rose glasses because of how neat the rest of the game is, or if there is something badly broken in the current game version -- but like you, I'm rapidly losing my interest in playing because the AI is very near brain-dead. Waiting for it to do something interesting is like trying to get a dead dog to play fetch. 

Reply #2 Top

You could try a higher difficulty level. There are a few above tough you know.

Reply #3 Top

Quoting Mumblefratz, reply 2
You could try a higher difficulty level. There are a few above tough you know.
End of Mumblefratz's quote

Pretty much the response I was expecting. I should keep playing this hideously broken game by giving the AI so many bonuses that it can be as stupid as it likes. Brilliant. I don't understand why you play this game - there are other turn-based strategy games out there. CivII had a better AI than this 15 years ago and Civ4 is far stronger than that. I may still be able to pound it at anything short of Emperor, but it still makes sensible moves, if not optimal ones.

Whatever... this is pointless. By all means, play what you like. I don't suppose Stardock will let me unregister my serial so that I can resell this game, will they?

Reply #4 Top

Did you try Dark Avatar?

I have not played TA yet, but my take from the posts here is that it might be less mature a game, having not had the number of patches DA has gained that may have helped gameplay.

My general approach in games is to learn the mechanics at the toughest AI settings that do not include any artificial bonuses.  After that, I expect the game to be interesting with a small bonus to the AI.  DA seems to manage that, especially on the largest settings with the most AIs, especially if you either do not let minor races into the game, or use game setting or otherwise decline to sell/trade tech with the minor AIs.

Be advised, though, that the game appears to suffer from frequent out of memory crashes in gigantic galaxies late in a competitive game with big fleets, etc. running around, necessitating saved game use.

Reply #5 Top

Quoting tppytel, reply 3

Brilliant. I don't understand why you play this game...Whatever... this is pointless. By all means, play what you like. I don't suppose Stardock will let me unregister my serial so that I can resell this game, will they?
End of tppytel's quote

Don't let the door hit your ass on the way out.  SD acutally might give your money back, but I would hope not.

Reply #6 Top

Quoting jacklv, reply 5

Quoting tppytel, reply 3
Brilliant. I don't understand why you play this game...Whatever... this is pointless. By all means, play what you like. I don't suppose Stardock will let me unregister my serial so that I can resell this game, will they?
Don't let the door hit your ass on the way out.  SD acutally might give your money back, but I would hope not.
End of jacklv's quote

Why be a prick? This game was touted left and right for its AI, but this isn't the first time I see someone complaining about it being stupid.

Reply #7 Top

Quoting LTjim, reply 4
Did you try Dark Avatar?
End of LTjim's quote

No, but I'm realizing this is related to my frustrations with this game. I generally assume that an expansion to a strategy game is, well... an expansion. Mostly just more units and more buildings, but only maybe one or two new concepts. From the Googling I did trying to learn GC's underlying mechanics, it's pretty clear that Stardock doesn't do things that way - every expansion overhauled nearly every system in the game. It seems to me that this development style, while probably great fun for the developers, doesn't result in a stable, well-tested product. I mean... it doesn't take a whole lot of testing to notice that the AI refuses to defend itself against an attack.

I'm getting the sense that regular Galciv players have a tremendous amount of personal empathy for the Stardock devs. I can't count how many threads I've read here that end with "Well, that's probably a bug...", a shrug of the shoulders, and a hope that it might possibly be fixed sometime in the future. While having some patience and respect for the developers is certainly a good thing, it seems to me like it's gotten to the point where there really aren't any expectations that the game actually works or that problems are addressed. Everyone will just make do with what they have, play with insane AI boosts, voluntarily restrict their gameplay choices, or come up with some other workaround. In other words, just let it all go because the devs are nice guys. That's really not my cup of tea. But again, as long as you all are having fun, that's what ultimately counts. I can find my fun elsewhere. However, I do think the reviews of this game as a pinnacle of the turn-based strategy genre are horribly inaccurate and I find that frustrating.

Quoting jacklv,
Don't let the door hit your ass on the way out.
End of jacklv's quote

Thanks for your concern. My response to Mumblefratz was a genuine question and not a personal jab like yours. I really want to know why people play this game and review it well. It doesn't seem like the AI's gameplay compares even to early `90's games. It's got no multiplayer. What's fun? The story? The ships? The techs? The economic system? I'm genuinely curious. I just don't see it.

Quoting jacklv,
SD acutally might give your money back, but I would hope not.
End of jacklv's quote

Right. Because selling someone something that they hate, despite having done reasonable research on the purchase, and then preventing them from reselling it is a great way to earn repeat business. At this point, I might possibly consider buying another Stardock game if I could play a demo or someone I knew personally could vouch for it. If I get stuck with an unsellable $40 game that I feel is complete garbage, I can guarantee Stardock will never get me to buy anything from them again and that I will mercilessly ream them anytime their name comes up in conversation. If I were in their position, avoiding that might well be worth the potential loss of a single sale.

Reply #8 Top

tppytel -

No, seriously, I meant it when I said the DA game is more mature than the TA one.  It is further into the product cycle of issue-debug-patch-tweak-tweak.

Like I said, try DA on Tough max CPU - or perhaps just one level above Tough to give the AI a bit of equality over the min-max human.  Try it on Gigantic with a custom race of your own design against the max number of major racess and no Minor races.  Then, post here again as you just did.

Please!  Oh, you might need to patch the DA game to 2.01 version with Impulse.  But, try that and post here again - you can do a "LTjim I told you so" post in triumph.  I can beat DA w/o much trouble on the above settings, but the game is not trivial.

Reply #9 Top

Quoting LTjim, reply 8
No, seriously, I meant it when I said the DA game is more mature than the TA one.  It is further into the product cycle of issue-debug-patch-tweak-tweak.
End of LTjim's quote

Yes, I realized you were serious. Sorry I didn't address your point precisely. I just fired up DA and just at a glance it's a very different game. Tech trees and builds are all different, ship stats are all different, and my start was right on top of the Altairians. It feels a lot less interesting than TA does. Of course, if it's actually playable that would be a big improvement, but still... I don't know. I'll consider it. Thanks for the suggestion.

 

Reply #10 Top

YAQW!

In DA, there are no race-unique tech trees and a bit less visual buffs - so yes it is a bit different visually. 

If you start too much on top of another race, restart with the control-N tool or something.  I think the lack of race-unique things may help the AI and all the reviews I read that praised the AI pre-dated TA.  That is, I bought DA/DL before TA came out, so the TA reviews would obviously not existed.  So, it is possible that the AI in TA is not (yet?) up to DA's AI.

Hope to see you post on your DA experience.

Reply #11 Top

Hi!

Try it on Gigantic
End of quote
Don't try gigantic. AFAIK the AI is programmed and optimized for medium galaxies (~10 colonizable planets per player), not the gigantic ones. When I played one gigantic suicidal game, it simply didn't feel suicidal at all, but more like a maso one with a bit weaker start.

BR,  Iztok

Reply #12 Top

Quoting Ironmallet, reply 6
Why be a prick? This game was touted left and right for its AI, but this isn't the first time I see someone complaining about it being stupid.
End of Ironmallet's quote

Simply because one repsonses in kind.  I didn't have a problem with the OP.  Almost everyone has as issue with the AI and has complained, including me.  To start a thread on your way out is not good form, but understandable.

But, when you begin questioning other players because you don't understand the game, that is another matter.

Reply #13 Top

Quoting tppytel, reply 7

Thanks for your concern. My response to Mumblefratz was a genuine question and not a personal jab like yours. I really want to know why people play this game and review it well.


Right. Because selling someone something that they hate
End of tppytel's quote

Just to be clear, I have no concern for you, SD or Mumble.  Your question was not only disingenuous, it was condescending.  My point was, if you hate the game, leave it.  Don't bore us with further posts.  If you can't afford the $40 PM me, I'll give it to you.

Reply #14 Top

Uh, I'll take 40 bucks, if the offer is there. :D

Reply #15 Top

Quoting Inches, reply 14
Uh, I'll take 40 bucks, if the offer is there.
End of Inches's quote

|-)    I deserve that.

Reply #16 Top

I think it would be fair to say the AI is not terribly bright.  Even on the highest difficulty levels I tend to find they never concentrate their forces and spend a huge portion of their military budget on Defender type ships regardless of the race.  Those ships, while sometimes formidable, pretty much just sit and wait for my concentrated fleets to come in and wipe them out a couple at a time.  If I am have enough paitence I can attack a few worlds, go rest my units to repair while I build more transports and just keep repeating this over and over until the game ends.

I think the AI just simply has no idea how to really defend itself.  It will occasionally do ok in the attack and will build up some units but on defense they just seem to wait for you on planets unless they happened to have a fleet close by preparing to do something else.