Draginol Draginol

What would happen after an EMP attack?

What would happen after an EMP attack?

After reading the book One Second After we had an interesting discussion over on JoeUser about the subject.

One user said that humans had adapted and were far too enlightened today to revert to violence and mayhem in the absence of our modern conveniences.

So let’s walk through the EMP scenario:

Day 1: July Year 200x

5 container ships in the gulf of Mexico fire medium range SCUD missiles high into the atmosphere until it reaches far above Kansas and other states.  On board are 45KT nuclear warhead.  It explodes creating EMP that takes out all of the integrated circuits in the United States.

That means anything electronic that hasn’t been hardened is going to be ruined.  That means your computers, TVs, cars, home electronics, breaker box, phones, radios, cell phones. It also means the power companies, their generators, the backup generators at hospitals, nursing homes, etc.

All of the farms and their harvesting equipment is dead. The trucks that move food to the cities are ruined. The trains that move freight around the country are inoperable.

Every airplane flying crashes. All planes on the down are ruined.

The only thing working are US conventional forces that happened to be hardened against EMP (which means quite a few of them).  Some cars stored in underground parking garages would probably work depending on the proximity. 

There’s no fall out. Nobody dies from the attack directly.

Day 2:

With power out people’s fridges are DOA.  With no working cars, people don’t go to work. In the country and in the suburbs, people take the food out of their refrigerators and freezers before it “goes bad” and have BBQs. It’s a fun time.

People who were driving somewhere are mostly able to make it to town. A few people die of heat stroke on their journeys. In the deep south, particularly Florida, there are a number of deaths due to the heat since air conditioning is out.

In the cities, looting begins quite quickly. The police can’t do much since they’re on foot or on horse.

We know this sort of thing because we have seen what happens during extended power outages. Of course, in those cases cars, cell phones, and other crucial devices still worked but there was still massive looting in the large cities.

Day 3:

Local agencies really don’t know what’s going on since there is no communication. No cell phones. No radio. No land lines. The grid is gone.  There are spare parts but no where near enough to fix it all and because of the nature of the electrical grid, all the holes have to be plugged for the juice to flow again.  And even if they had enough parts, how do they transport them? No trucks. No cars. 

International relief from Japan, China, Canada (though most of Canada is taken out too), Mexico, Europe begins but it’ll be slow going. Food shipments can reach the coast in a couple of days but getting it inland will be a major problem as the vehicles will have to be transported in along with parts to try to get the railroads working again (along with teams to get dead trains off the rails).

In the subs, the party is over. It ain’t funny now.  People are finishing off what was in their refrigerator. Most people still have some food in the cupboard.

Stores start rationing their supplies. People are still using money (at least, those who keep cash). A bottle of water is $20.  How much cash do you keep in your house?

In the cities, riots have broken out with widespread destruction. Being July, it’s hot and dry. Fires from the riots start to spread.

End of Week 1:

By now, most people in the subs have run out of food they would normally remotely consider eating. Looting at the local Walmart and grocery stores begins as people simply take what they need.

Remember, people aren’t hearing anything from the authorities. There are no working TVs. No working radios. The handful of police are walking in the subs. 

If you live in the suburbs, take a close look around. How would the police reasonably patrol your city without cars?

Meanwhile, people in nursing homes have started dying enmasse. Without refrigeration drugs quickly go bad. Anyone requiring help breathing or anything else has already died.

People with type 1 diabetes are starting to see the writing on the wall.

Meanwhile, the first container ships of relief have reached San Francisco, Seattle, LA, San Diego, Houston, Miami, Boston, NY, Washington, Raleigh. Lots of food, medicine, some parts, lots of vehicles.

Unfortunately most of those cities are in utter pandemonium. In the south, tens of thousands have already died from heat.  In 2003, when there was a heat wave in France, 14800 people died. They didn’t lose power, they just didn’t have air conditioning.  In Florida, the death toll is skyrocketing quickly. Same in most of the other southern states.

End of Week 2:

People are starting to die of dysentery from eating bad food, drinking bad water. Many have left the suburbs to head to rural areas where they think there is food (they’re wrong, harvest won’t happen for months, industrialized food processing involves a lot of transportation between the farms and the slaughter houses).

The typical American family, now out of food and with no access to clean water is starting to get pretty desperate.

What? Only 2 weeks? How much food do you have in your house right now? Go check. I’ll wait….

Okay back? So how much is in your pantry? How long would it last you? If you knew at the start, you might have rationed it better. But you didn’t. 

Millions of Americans are wishing they had put those steaks and hamburgers and hotdogs in their basements in the cooler temperatures. Others are wishing they had salted them heavily and cooked them well done to store for the long haul.

In the cities on the coast, power is restored via backup generators relatively close to shore. However, within 10 miles from the harbor, death is everywhere.  Don’t agree?

Ever been to San Francisco? LA? New York City? 14 days have passed. Where would you have gone? The smart ones, who are able to, would have found their way to the harbors and waited for air lifts of food and such. But most would probably not think about that.

Meanwhile, armed thugs are starting to systematically go through every building and house looking and taking what they need.

End of Week 3

Starvation is starting to become a real problem. If your local law enforcement had a clue, they had already gotten themselves and helpful citizens around to the stores to gather up supplies to start rationing it.

At this point, martial law has been declared by any competent city government.  Some cities decide that, for the public good of course, that all community food will be collected and distributed equally to everyone. In other places, large armed mobs are violently taking what is needed to survive.

Are you a survivalist? Got all your supplies right? Got MREs in the basement. You have an AK47 that you managed to get quietly at a gun show. Your kids know how to use the two shot guns. You’ve been prepared for this day right?  Great. You’re about to die.

You see, you might be able to keep a few people away. But word got around that you have supplies because you’re that guy who everyone knew was expecting to “bug out” one day when the government and black helicopters came.  You might be able to take out a few people but 200+ Nope. You’re going to take a lot of them out but they’re going to come in, kill you, your family, and your supplies.

What? Don’t agree? People won’t do that? Again: Other than on the coast (in some major cities near harbors anyway) you’ve heard and seen nothing from the government other than the occasional Black Hawk flying around. No TV. No phones. No radios. 

A few people have managed to dig up old HAM radios and they are getting distant broadcasts of reassurance but it’s clear that nothing’s coming any time soon if you live significantly inland, especially if you don’t live in a densely populated area.

It’s triage at this point and the rural and suburbs areas are simply too spread out. Unfortunately, in the cities, fires have consumed much of them. Anyone strong enough to get out of there has which further distributes the population.

A few older cars start showing up again on the roads as collectables and just old junkers are fixed up and are able to drive because they didn’t have electronics in them.

End of the first month:

A network of outposts are re-established in most large and medium sized cities. Medium sized cities are faring a bit better. Kalamazoo Michigan, Santa Cruz California, and other cities of this kind are doing okay now as convoys are starting to show up.

Really large cities away from the coast are dead at this point.  Sorry Omaha, there’s nobody home anymore.

The Second Month:

Now is when the death toll really starts to go up.  First, you have about 5% of the population that was on medication to control their mental states. This is now gone.  They will mostly die off this month or take out a few others in the process.

Nearly everyone with Type 1 diabetes has died.

Virtually who requires assisted care at this point has died.

Millions of children under 2 have died. Why? Do you have any children? If you’re not nursing them, how are you feeding them at this point?

There are not many domesticated dogs left that haven’t been freed by owners.

The number of deer left that are near people has diminished to the point of being difficult to find. Same with geese, ground hogs, rabbits, etc.

Most cities of any decent size now have an outpost re-established with convoys of food now arriving. However, it’s starting to become a real problem because, well it turns out that the US and Canada supply a significant chunk of the world’s food. 47% of the world’s Soy beans are produced in the United States. 86% of the world’s corn. The bulk of the world’s wheat. 

It’s during this second month that the food shipments to the United States are going to start to dry up as hunger starts to become a significant problem in China, Japan, and other countries that have to import food. The US and Canada make up 20% of the world’s food exports and if you count only basic foods the percentage nearly doubles. 

The world has its first universal consensus: Oh shit.

It’s at about this time that those who were celebrating in the streets about the downfall of the great satan are starting to get the first thought that yes, they’re going to die too. North Korea, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq, Egypt, Syria, Pakistan, and many other countries are about to see starvation on a level that has never been seen before.

By contrast, Europe is doing okay. Not great. But okay. Their economies are in ruins but they’re not going to die enmasse. 

In Japan, where starvation is a serious concern, they and Korea have enough money to pay top dollar for the dwindling import food supply. Russia, unfortunately, is about to have a very rough year.

Needless to say, the food aid shipments to the United States are starting to dwindle. Western Europe, particularly Great Britain, Spain, Belgium, Denmark, France, Germany, Netherlands are still sending food shipments.

If you’re on the East coast in a secure area, you’re in good shape.  If you’re on the west coast, most of you are going to die.

Third Month:

The population of the United States is starting to take on the same appearance it did in 1909.

Here is what it looked like in the year 2000.

8% of the poulation was over 70.  Nearly all of them have died.

3% of the population is under 4.  Nearly all of them have died.

Urban populations of the United States have had staggering death tolls, particularly those not near the coasts.

Anyone requiring medication that needed to be refrigerated in order to live (anti-rejection drugs, insulin, various heart medications, for instance) has died. Easily 10% of the population on top of the above.

Around 20% of the population has starved.

Another 10% in the south who are living in places that were uninhabitable without modern technology have died.  Think LA is nice? Imagine it without water.  Any water.

In fact, if you live in California, take a look around. Where does your water come from?  Most of the population of Arizona, Nevada, New Mexico and parts of Utah have died.

Power is starting to get restored due to generators and the government now had a decent supply of cars. Fixing the grid has become a priority.

While heat has killed millions in the south, we’re now getting near November. It’s starting to get cold.

The fourth month

I tell people who come and interview that Michigan’s southern part is about the same latitude as Northern California.  Winters in the upper part of the United States and lower Canada aren’t that bad – if you have heat.

But we don’t have heat.  Natural gas has to be pumped and pumped through a huge network across the country.  When power goes out, even for a few days, a lot of infrastructure falls apart.  New York’s subways, for example are gone.  Much of Chicago has flooded too.  Those who have enough propane will be okay, for awhile (at least until armed thugs come and take it).

By this point, restoring natural gas is not going to be a simple matter of restoring power.  Ever wondered how natural gas gets to your house?  It’s all repairable but it will take time and unfortunately, a lot of that expertise in people has died or is otherwise unavailable. That means bringing people in which will take more time.

If you live in northern states at this point, and you haven’t starved to death, you’re probably going to start dying of exposure.

But that’s a gift compared to what people still struggling to make it in warmer areas as we get reintroduced to cholera, TB, and diarrhea become major problems.

In fact, in 1900 the #1 cause of death in the United States was pneumonia. The #3 was diarrhea. That’s right. The runs killed more Americans than Heart disease, cancer, strokes, etc.  And this November, it returns from retirement as people, without proper sanitation, start to die off from all kinds of things that were previously unheard of.

In fact, as November closes, the United States has reverted to a third world country. No, that’s not fair. Third world countries usually have electricity and their inhabitants usually know how to start a fire.  Do you know how to start a fire without matches and such? Remember watching Survivor and laughing at them? They were in pretty good conditions to get a fire going.  You, by contrast, are wet, cold, weakened, and not sure if it’s even a good idea to start a fire because, well, what are you going to do with it? There’s little food.

On the west coast, food shipments have dropped to a trickle.  LA, Seattle, San Fran, it’s not a fun time there now.

One Year later

The grid is re-established in the midwest, the east coast, and much of the south.  It’s partially re-established on the west coast thanks to help from South Korea, China, and Japan. Thanks guys. We appreciate it even if most of us are dead.

So what’s the death toll?  Conservatively, you’re looking at 40% of the population of the US and Canada has died. That’s probably a best case scenario if food and equipment shipments from the rest of the world come in quickly.

A smart (well not really smart because the states that sponsor terrorists have died off due to the unintended consequences) terrorist would have also zinged Japan, South Korea, the Chinese east coast, and western Europe. If that happened, you would be looking far higher deaths everywhere as there would be no relief coming in.

The population of the United States today is over 300 million people.  In 1900 it was 76 million. The biggest reason for the increase isn’t due to birth rate but rather the massive decline of the death rate.  And remember, they had infrastructure back in 1900.  We’d be worse off than they were because they knew how to live back then. 

How many people know how to can food? How many modern Americans know how much wood to cut to burn? How many Americans live in places where they need an elevator, as a practical matter, to get to where they live?

Heck, how many Americans are simply living today because they have access to all kinds of medical technology?  How many Americans are living in places that can only be inhabited thanks to modern technology? Most of the south west was a barren desert until electrical pumps became possible. Much of the south wasn’t, as a practical matter, livable until air condition.

Also, consider our immune systems of today versus what it was 100 years ago. Our sterilized world has made us very vulnerable to the bacteria and viruses that lurk just outside our electrified civilization. And they would be back to visit within weeks.

Conclusions

Is what I describe realistic? Nobody really knows. There are studies out there.  The book One Second After is a bit more dire than I think it would be.  And it may turn out that our infrastructure is tougher than it seems or that the types of nuclear warheads that an Iran or North Korea could produce aren’t powerful enough to cause the necessary EMP. 

But what is so frightening is how vulnerable we are.  It wouldn’t take much of a shove to bring down the electrical grid.  You could still end up with a situation where 10% of the American population (30 million) die simply by screwing up the electrical grid for a couple months.

Do I think this will happen? Probably not. I have a lot of faith in humanity.  But when one considers the things that we worry about – global warming comes to mind, it amazes me how unconcerned people are at how easily disrupted our modern lives could be given how dependent we are on our technology today.

442,435 views 153 replies
Reply #26 Top

Quoting Trigeminal, reply 18


 

Flu shots and other vaccines expose you to a small dose of live or killed pathogens or their surface proteins giving your natural immune system a chance to learn how to fight the infection.  Your immune system remembers and if you are infected again it fights far more effectively.
End of Trigeminal's quote

Yes, I know how they work.

What I don't know, is what other effects it might have - intentional or not - or if it is even for the flu strain that I'm infected with.

Personally, I trust this government less and less as time goes on. Washington is corrupt from the top down, with very few exceptions. And it seems to get worse with every new administration.

I would not put it past them to introduce something nasty through those flu shots. Our government has been guilty of eugenics in the past, and they are even more corrupt now.

Reply #27 Top

Although I wouldn't put it past the security wings to try to mess with people's medicine, there are three major problems with that:

  1. Flu shots are privately made and distributed. There is really no way for the government to tamper with them.
  2. People leak. The government has tried to do sneaky stuff in the past. Somebody always taks, and whatever they are doing is smeared all over the news as, or even before, it happens.
  3. There's no motive. The only things you would put in there that you would want to be quiet about would be harmful and/or poisonous (they would be trumpeting any healty additions every chance they got), and since there is no way to target specific individuals or groups, all they would be able to accomplish is to sicken or kill a large portion of the population, which would only hurt us economically. (And no, mind control drugs do't exist outside of Hollywood.)
Reply #28 Top

I think the EMP destruction of a single weapon (assuming it's from a nuclear weapon) would be closer to taking out a city, not the entire USA.

Only the pre-cold-war Soviet Union and the USA have, AFAIK, enough resources to create enough weapons to wipe our entire naton.

Of course, if you launch that many nukes, the EMP bursts are gonna be the least of your worries.

 

Farm equipment is unlikely to go dead. The metal in a tractor is likely to act as a Faraday cage, the metal of the engine is likely to absorb a lot of the electrical charge, and spark/glow plug wires are designed to handle large voltages. In addition, I don't see targeting farmland as being effective, as it tends to be sparse and have relatively little population.

A diesel engine that is already running would continue to run, FYI: Glow plugs don't depend on electrical current to funciton, they rely on heat being generated in the engine. Unless the fuel pump was blown, in which case you're in trouble.

This article *does* seem to imply that any destruction of them will be 100% complete and total. I'm not sure that's true.

 

"Every airplane flying crashes."

This is false. Many aircraft, even today, use hydraulics for flight controls, and would be capable enough to perform an emergency landing upon total electrical (and even engine) failure. In addition, most aircraft with fly by wire systems have redundancy, so you'd have to blow out all backup systems.

Aircraft close to the EMP blast may have total electrical failure - but further away, it would be feasible that it doesn't blow out everything and it would still be able to perform an emergency landing using the backups.

Cars and aircraft are actually much more likely to survive an EMP blast than household items, due to  their metallic exteriors acting as Faraday cages, and due to the fact that they're not connected to the electrical grid (which may be transmitting electrical surges).

If you suspect an EMP is coming, it would be a good idea to unplug everything. The power grid would certainly be transmitting large surges.

 

"Remember, people aren’t hearing anything from the authorities."

Sure they are. It'll just be mostly local stuff from the mayor and the police. Some radios may still work: An EMP may wipe out a lot, but I seriously doubt it's a 100% guaruntes of destruction of electronics. You may mave 80-90% of electonics wiped out, but I doubt 100%.

"Really large cities away from the coast are dead at this point. "

Okay - I dunno what's with this guy and coastlines. The farmers are gonna have their tractors running pretty quickly, even if they were affected by the initial EMP. There will probably be more food near farlmand areas than at the coasts.

 

"Conservatively, you’re looking at 40% of the population of the US and Canada has died."

Maybe, maybe not. This is only one way it could happen. It's purely a hypothetical exercise.

 

A few would hold to their fundamental Christian beliefs, and they would physically die for their efforts.
End of quote

We've been through worse. Take a look at Rome shortly after the Biblical events.

I think that 'human nature' is basically bad.
End of quote

That's what fundamental Christian beliefs teach.

 

My knowledge of electrical physics is not perfect: is it the total length of the wire that determines the energy absorbed, or the distance over land the wire travels?
End of quote

Total length, with a caveat: If the current is high enough, a voltage may jump across the windings.

Reply #29 Top

1) I never said it was 1 nuke. From the first paragraph:

5 container ships in the gulf of Mexico fire medium range SCUD missiles high into the atmosphere until it reaches far above Kansas and other states.

That's because SCUD missiles have a maximum altitutde of about 150km so I said 5 container ships shooting them above various states to get the blanket protection.
End of quote

Well, you didn't exactly word that well. Maybe it should be changed to "until they reach far above Kansas and other states." The way you have it, there is some confusion. You start out with multiple missiles, then one, then back to multiple. And when you contiue, it goes back to one.

On board are 45KT nuclear warhead. It explodes creating EMP that takes out all of the integrated circuits in the United States.
End of quote

Not to be the grammar nazi or anything, but it is a little confusing.

Even with multiple warheads, it still is a very unlikely senario. I could see a terrorist group getting a hold of 1, maybe 2 nukes, but 5? That's pushing it a little. The same goes with N Korea, Iran, etc. They can barely even make one.

2) The article explicitly mentions air lifting. However, you could not use airlifts to supply the United States. It took the bulk of the US air force to airlift 1 city during the Berlin airlift.
End of quote

Scoutdog already pointed this out, but it was 60 years ago. Cargo planes today have much larger capacity, longer range, and there are just more of them in general. Not to mention the huge fleets of strategic bombers that could perform a similar function if needed.

3) I definitely think there are other things that can have the same effect such as solar flares. People often forget that our electronic society is a very very recent phenomenon. For all we know, serious solar activity could be like a 100 year flood type scenario and we just haven't run into it yet.
End of quote

Actually, solar flare activity is much better documented than most people would think. While not incedibly rare in themselves, the gaint ones that could knock out large sections of a country are pretty uncommon.

I think people are seriously overestimating the EMP effect produced by nuclear weapons, as well as vulnerability of our electronics to it. The OP article sounds more like doomsday scenarios often aired on Discovery and such, which take scientific facts and spin them into extreme and spectacular.
End of quote

Not really. One relatively weak nuke (Hiroshima sized) could theorectially knock out the entire US, but it would have to be very, very high above the surface, higher than most satellites orbit, which makes it unlikely to happen. Electronics are quite vulnerable to them as well.

My knowledge of electrical physics is not perfect: is it the total length of the wire that determines the energy absorbed, or the distance over land the wire travels? If it is the latter, then generators and electric motors would still work, as the wire is coiled and takes up a comparitively tiny amount of space.
End of quote

I believe that it is the total length of wire, but don't quote me on that.

Reply #30 Top

Not really. One relatively weak nuke (Hiroshima sized) could theorectially knock out the entire US, but it would have to be very, very high above the surface, higher than most satellites orbit, which makes it unlikely to happen. Electronics are quite vulnerable to them as well.

 

I'd like to see some hard data on that. As far as I know, the EMP range of conventional nukes is actually not that large and certainly not that powerful. And it doesn't increase with range, so if a low-altitude detonation couldn't fry the entire US, a high-alt detonation would do even less damage.

Again I should mention the solar storms, which arguably deliver a very powerful and widespread jolt to the electric grid and they only cause outages due to overload failures of the power grid, since the massive electromagnetic field can induce a huge amount of current in the transcontinental and trans-state power cables. They, however, cause minimal damage to everyday electric objects and electronics which are protected against power spikes.

I doubt today's common nuclear weapons could top the magnitude of an electromagnetic storm produced by the local star.

 

Now a much more realistic scenario would be low-altitude detonation of "dirty" nuclear weapons, which are easier to make than sophisticated orbital EMP devices and cause a much more widespread destruction via long-term contamination of land, food and water supplies. If you wanted to "kill" an entire country, that would be the way to do it... render the land uninhabitable, not fry their iPods.

Reply #31 Top

I remember a Popular Science article from a long time ago about how it would be possible to build a special warhead that specifically produces a much wider-spread EMP effect. Although you do have a point: these people can't even make their regular bombs work half the time. I don't think the technology exists to perform a working EMP strike, and even if it does, it's in the hands of the US, and maybe Russia. Besides, if you are a terrorist and have five nukes and the equipment to launch them anywhere in the owrld, you are going to want to destroy the governmental facilities directly, as opposed to using an EMP device to not harm them much at all (I imagine that stuff would be pretty well-hadened.)

Reply #32 Top

Not really. One relatively weak nuke (Hiroshima sized) could theorectially knock out the entire US,
End of quote

I question that. I'm gonna have to ask for backup of that claim.

Reply #33 Top

You better hope North Korea doesnt see this!

Reply #34 Top

North Korea is rattling its saber. The fat politicians which are in charge know full well what will happen to them if they actually go nuclear. And the fat politicians always look out for themselves.

I would be more worried about them selling nuclear weapons components to third parties which might not have such reservations, as are most of the world goverments.

Reply #35 Top

Not really. One relatively weak nuke (Hiroshima sized) could theorectially knock out the entire US,

I question that. I'm gonna have to ask for backup of that claim.
End of quote

 

Ok, first of all, I don't think it would be easy for a terrorist group to launch an EMP attack as hypothesized.  Some time in the future the proliferation of advanced technology might make this kind of attack easier to pull off, but I'm not too worried about it at the moment.  That said, Draginol was merely stating a hypothetical situation, and if someone did actually managed to coordinate this kind of attack, EMP really could wreak the kind of havoc described.

Here are links to a real world US test of a 1.4 MT nuke detonated about 240 miles above the Pacific atoll.  It fried parts of the electrical grid in Hawaii 900 miles away.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starfish_Prime

 

 

 

I'd like to see some hard data on that. As far as I know, the EMP range of conventional nukes is actually not that large and certainly not that powerful. And it doesn't increase with range, so if a low-altitude detonation couldn't fry the entire US, a high-alt detonation would do even less damage.
End of quote

 

This is a link describing EMP.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_pulse#Weapon_altitude

 

For those who don't have the time to read it, let me attempt to illustrate why a nuke farther away causes more EMP damage.  A close up nuke superheats the atmosphere and causes a huge explosion, just like everyone who saw Terminator 2 is familiar with.  The Earth is a sphere, and when you detonate a nuke right near the surface, the gamma rays radiate across the horizon, through the atmosphere, and into space.  Essentially, the gamma pulse is radiating off the planet, though this is little consolation to people who are incinerated or blown apart by the blast wave.

A nuke in space actually does very little conventional damage compared to a nuke on earth because there is no atmosphere to superheat.  But it is still a nuke...it is an explosion of hard radiation that is going to radiate outwards until it hits something, namely the atmosphere.  By being in space, it can hit every piece of the atmosphere within line of site of the nuke before the planet curves away out of line of sight.  So while we don't get the fiery conflagration of a nuke on the ground, we have gamma rays hitting and ionizing a huge chunk of the atmosphere....the higher up, the bigger area is hit by gamma rays because the "horizon" is farther away from the point of view of the nuke (Imagine how far you could see from a 200 mile tall tower. :grin:

When the gamma radiation hits the atmosphere, it creates ionization and fast downward moving electrons.  These moving electrons over a huge chunk of the atmosphere create the brief electric and magnetic fields that make up the ElectroMagnetic Pulse.

Because the electrons are moving at near relativistic speeds, they are creating a super intense electric field for a fraction of a second that is so fast it can not be stopped by surge protection.  This is what fries fragile eletronics not on the grid.  This is also the part that can be protected against by a Faraday cage.  Your electronics don't have to be attached to anything to be cooked by this.....bye bye cell phones and laptops.

The other damaging part of the pulse lasts for many seconds, possibly over minute, and is comprised of the Earths magnetic field being pushed and then moving back into place.  Violently changing the Earths magnetic field like this induces current in long conducters, like the power grid, and melts all the transformers if they can't take the heat.  This is also how a super powerful solar flare could take out the power grid.

Someone feel free to correct me if I screwed up some point, I'm not a physicist.

 

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Reply #36 Top

Thanks for the links. I still think the OP portrays the resulting mayhem too pessimistically. That there would be widespread infrastructure failure, is true... that 40% of US population would up and die because of it is very debatable.

Not to mention that the ability to produce food and such vital supplies would not just dissapear - as stated previously, EMP would not knock out relatively primitive machinery such as tractors or trucks and trains.

Other countries in the world would not be asked for aid in food shipments, but in replacement parts. The OP scenario also assumes a total failure of EVERYTHING electrical, which is bogus. An EMP pulse primarily affects the power grid and other large, stationary lenghts of conductors which can generate a sufficiently powerful inductive current when the magnetic field is "dragged" over them. Your digital watch, flashlight, car computer, desktops (since most desktops have metal casings), radios which are not connected to overly large antennae and such would probably survive an EMP blast.

You would suffer a power surge perhaps close to what would happen if a lightning bolt struck a cable running to your house electric installations. So appliances plugged in would be vulnerable, but not directly by the EMP.

So forget about computers frying from within. It wouldn't happen. An EMP happens every time there is a lighting strike. A 200 miles altitude EMP burst would have an approximate EMP effect as a lightning strike seven miles away. You don't see massive computer failures every time there's a thunderstorm, right?

An EMP attack is primarily aimed at knocking out a country's major power supply grid. This can cause severe distruptions, but nothing on the scale described in the OP. Its a tactical move designed to give an attacker an edge while they're busy frying the country the conventional way.

 

Reply #37 Top

Not to mention that the ability to produce food and such vital supplies would not just dissapear - as stated previously, EMP would not knock out relatively primitive machinery such as tractors or trucks and trains.
End of quote

I agree with you, primitive machinery is not all going to get knocked out, or it is going to get rapidly restored by people who hotwire things to bypass the electronics.  Unfortunately new high-end vehicles that are completely dependent on their onboard computers may be more problematic to restore.  But I tend to agree, not everything would get knocked out....

Other countries in the world would not be asked for aid in food shipments, but in replacement parts. The OP scenario also assumes a total failure of EVERYTHING electrical, which is bogus. An EMP pulse primarily affects the power grid and other large, stationary lenghts of conductors which can generate a sufficiently powerful inductive current when the magnetic field is "dragged" over them. Your digital watch, flashlight, car computer, desktops (since most desktops have metal casings), radios which are not connected to overly large antennae and such would probably survive an EMP blast.
End of quote
 

That is a component of EMP, the magnetic field that takes out the electric grid.  The leading edge of the EMP is an extremely intense micro second electric field that actually can fry electronics.  I also suspect that stuff underground, in shielded cases, possibly in some metal buildings, etc. might not be affected.  Still, from what I've read, this initial electric field, though brief, is so intense as to be capable of destroying the fragile semiconducting elements in electronics.  You don't have to kill many circuits in a computers hardware to render the whole computer unusable....

You would suffer a power surge perhaps close to what would happen if a lightning bolt struck a cable running to your house electric installations. So appliances plugged in would be vulnerable, but not directly by the EMP.

So forget about computers frying from within. It wouldn't happen. An EMP happens every time there is a lighting strike. A 200 miles altitude EMP burst would have an approximate EMP effect as a lightning strike seven miles away. You don't see massive computer failures every time there's a thunderstorm, right?
End of quote

If you have some kind of information explaining this contrary view, I'd love to read it.  From what I've read, it actually IS electronic circuits frying from within that destroys most of our technology.  This is different from the induction caused by the temporary shift in magnetic field which destroys the transformers on the power grid.  I am also optimistic there will be a lot of shielded electronics that could survive an event like this, just like I'm optimistic the hardened electronics on a commercial jetliner would probably survive, but from what I've read, semi-conducting circuits can be cooked by EMP, potentially destroying a lot of stuff, even if it is not attached to the power grid.

 

Thanks for the links. I still think the OP portrays the resulting mayhem too pessimistically. That there would be widespread infrastructure failure, is true... that 40% of US population would up and die because of it is very debatable.
End of quote

Finally, I am optimistic about our society's ability to come back from an event like the one hypothesized.  Still, I've lived in Los Angeles, and that city is in a desert, pumps in its water for both agricultural and domestic use, and is largely completely dependent on the gears of society functioning.  It is an urban area with 10 Million people, and I suspect it would deplete its food reserves within weeks.  If you live someplace where there is a reasonable population, nearby sustainable agriculture (can be worked without pumping in water), a fuel source, or access to a river or harbor, cities might fare much better.  I just wouldn't want to be in LA.

I think Hurricane Katrina was a pretty good example of how difficult it can be to deal with a natural disaster.  While I am optimistic about society's ability to adapt to a disaster, I can't help but notice sometimes cities have riots, looting, and civil disturbances after something as simple as a major sports event....and that's when the home team wins!

Reply #38 Top

I think that people would be pretty ticked about losing their wiis, but I'm still not entireyl sure if backup generators at grociery stores and hospitals would even be severely effected: not only is that wire coil being "dragged" through a very small section of the magnetic field compared to a power line, but unless it got hot enough to literally melt the coil into a solid mass, the thing would still be servicible. Even if that DID happen. what's stopping someone from just opening it up and wrapping some wire from the local hardware store? It might not get quite the same power output, but the thing would be operational. (Of course, this is assuming that people have some idea of how a generator works.... which I highly doubt.) The same goes for electric motors, only the probability of melting is greater, as they are often hooked into the power grid.

Reply #39 Top

I think we would rebuild rather quickly actually. 

Reply #40 Top

OK, so I tried to find some different opinions on the threat of EMP.

I tried to tailor my searches to find stuff stating EMP as being exaggerated or a hoax, but kept coming back with pages of search results discussing how bad EMP is and how vulnerable we are to its effects.  Luckily, I'm unemployed atm, so I kept looking through all the doom and gloom articles.

I managed to find a paper that states the danger of EMP is extremely over-exagerated.  This is the only concrete thing I could find so far with a dissenting opinion. 

http://arxiv.org/ftp/physics/papers/0307/0307127.pdf

I even read some of it.  It seems to be credible, but I'm not going to try and figure out the math behind it.  It was written by this guy:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mario_Rabinowitz

 

Given that the dangers of EMP both sells nukes as well as sells extremly expensive EMP hardening...and EMP fear mongering sells books, I can see why people would exaggerate the threat.  So maybe this guy is the voice of reason, or maybe he is wrong...I don't know.

 

 

Reply #41 Top

the story is largly ignoring WATER. by day 3 over 99% of city populations will die of dehydration. only those who live close enough to a natural source of water stand ANY chance of survival.

Reply #42 Top

PS. according to modern weapon the US recognizes the thread of EMP, and has multiple layers of anti missle weapons... short range, medium range, and long range anti missle missles, as well as ground mounted and airplane mounted (modifed 777) lasers meant to take out missles before they reach lower atmosphere where an EMP blast would be effective. (EMP is created with every nuke, but if it is at ground level then it is blocked by the curvature of the earth)

Reply #43 Top

Die of dehydration in 3 days? The time it takes to die from water deprivation differs greatly depending on a wide range of circumstances, but 3 days sounds extreme. Do you live in a desert or something?

But yes, I do agree with you. Depending on where you live and what kind of relief you can expect (which no doubt would take several days just to organize, let alone get going in any way or fashion that could be considered structured) water would be a top priority.

I guess my point is that based on where I'm living, not only would you survive up to a week without water unless it's peak summer, but secondary water sources (badly purified or unpurified water, streams, etc) is widely available and primary water sources would still be available in isolated cases (private wells, etc). Tertiary water sources (polluted or dirty water) would most likely only be used by the assorted dregs of society that are simply too dumb, too asocial or uneducated to make use of better sources.

And seriously, who cares about them?

Reply #44 Top

SCUD missiles are relatively short ranged weapons. The type that can carry a nuclear device (doubtfully anywhere near the size of 45KT) is 180 Km. That means the missile never reaches the altitude needed to successfully create the effect (250 Km). Other varieties of SCUDs have slightly longer ranges, but still nowhere near both range and altitude to deliver the device successfully. LINK 

That said, there are longer ranged missiles that have potential. Here's the problem: These missiles need exotic liquid fuels and hours of preparation. Except for the largest sold fuel rockets, they don't have the power of liquid fueled launch vehicles. There is a reason that no current nuclear power uses surface ships as launching platforms (although both the US and USSR experimented in the 40's and 50's). Submarines are stable, but launch intermediate range ICBMs, few nations have underwater launch capability and a surfaced sub is an unstable target. Any ship sitting in the gulf setting up missiles, which can take hours or even days, is going to draw attention. The Gulf of Mexico shipping lanes are probably one of the most watched in the world (drugs). Ship positions and courses are monitored.

Great fantasy story, but it doesn't take the real world situation or technological playing field as it exists today. When the ship is discovered, it won't take rocket science to find out where it came from... a risky proposition for a country that wants to see the US without power, and disrupt the world on a whole, including their own country. What would be their next move? Nothing, because few countries have what it takes to capitalize on the situation.

 

Reply #45 Top

Actually Luckmann three days without liquids is pretty close to the human limit.  Plenty of people would die, whatever the climate.

EDIT- Talt's forgetting water/milk/juice in stores/warehouses though. 

Reply #46 Top

All this talk about water has made me wonder: would metal pipes create a charge? They are essentially hollow wides filled with a weak conductor, and while a lot of them are underground, they are buried pretty shallowly and I don't think soil usually blocks magnetic fields THAT well. I doubt that the voltage produced would be enough to seriously hurt you, but it might give you a nasty shock...

Reply #47 Top

I doubt you could feed one major US city with an airlift.  You guys have no idea of the scale of what you're talking about.  Also, the planes supplying Berlin took off from inside Germany.  Not across the Atlantic.  Finally, why not just use the air transport to transport the people to where the food is?  That's a lot less weight and only takes one trip.

Most countries that would be likely to launch such an attack (North Korea, Iran, etc) don't have the missile technology to get a nuclear warhead to that height.

I did think they threw the name "Scud" in there just to get a rise out of people; they're so crude I'd never trust them to get my nuke in place.  OK, now to the original point.

One user said that humans had adapted and were far too enlightened today to revert to violence and mayhem in the absence of our modern conveniences.

I didn't say that exactly -- I said human nature was not as feral as most people think, even in desperation. You spend most of your article explaining how terrible things would be, but that doesn't explain how people would actually react.  Because of the sheer novelty of a disaster situation like that, people are usually surprisingly passive, at least in the initial moments:

"Large groups of people facing death act in surprising ways. Most of us become incredibly docile. We are kinder to one another than normal. We panic only under certain rare conditions. Usually, we form groups and move slowly, as if sleepwalking in a nightmare.

Zedeno still did not immediately flee on 9/11, even after her colleague screamed at her. First she reached for her purse, and then she started walking in circles. "I was looking for something to take with me. I remember I took my book. Then I kept looking around for other stuff to take. It was like I was in a trance," she says, smiling at her behavior...

There's an anecdote in the article about people burning to death in a plane who never tried to leave their seats -- just sat there, hands folded.  I think a large proportion of the people who die in your scenario would just quietly expire without any The Stand-like organized cannibalism.

Anyway.  I hope the people like Mansh00ter, scoutdog, and Cykur who disagree with you on the facts of EMP are correct and it wouldn't be that bad, because I think it will happen at some point.  Of course I believed in Y2K too.

I just wish that when people talked about the government being the "insurer of last resort," they were talking about them protecting us from things like this that no one can avoid individually.  But retirees, sick people, and banks get votes, and so the government insures them instead.  How many transformers could we stockpile with the ten million 900 dollar checks we send out to Social Security recipients in just one month?

Reply #48 Top

Quoting SnallTrippin, reply 20
Actually Luckmann three days without liquids is pretty close to the human limit.  Plenty of people would die, whatever the climate.

EDIT- Talt's forgetting water/milk/juice in stores/warehouses though.
End of SnallTrippin's quote
Yes, but that's complete liquid deprivation. From where I'm sitting, that's just not going to happen. Even if you have no direct liquids and end up eating dog food, you'd still get a fair amount of water.

A rainy day could end up sustaining you for another 3-5 days.

Reply #49 Top

I'ts doomsday scenarios like these that make me happy to live in Northern Michigan, right on Lake Huron...

Reply #50 Top

Yeah, here in Michigan, we dont have to worry about water. It might need rudimentary purification, but I have several lakes and streams with in walking distance of my house, and I live in the same city where Stardock is. Plus I am one of those wackos who stores a couple hundred gallons in the basement.