imo crowe craps up his roles pretty well

Amen. I think he just doesn't know how to spell. I can't speak any languages besides English; guess I'm just a condescending, imperialist snob that way. But hey, thas jus' how ah roll!

Star Trek (2009) OST

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JaN2mys6npw&feature=related

I liked it but a few things made me think,

Kirk gets HIS ASS KICKED IN EVERY FIGHT HE IS IN  literally.

If he is not getting pounded on in the bar, its on the drill, or the deck of the Enterprise, or on the romulan ship, or anywhere really. That man just cannot defend himself in a fistfight.

If Spock only needed a small amount of the "red matter" then why send him will all of it?

I saw it and i'm with Phaedyme. I think its great they're getting a chance to diverge from the past of the series. No one wants Shatner to stick his face on TV more then it already is.

Why not have the ability to make some more interesting movies that are not having to be crippled by having to connect directly back to the 70's series?

I am familiar with both episodes (and most time travel episodes). I'll try to phrase my argument in that context.

Let point A be the year 2387. Yet point B be the year Nero arrived in. Let point C be an indeterminate time in the 25th century.

Nero and Spock travelled from point A to point B, creating a divergent timeline. (They might have also travelled into a different universe, but that's not helpful for this argument.) This is like what happened in that two-part Voyager time travel episode (can't remember) where they go back to present day- they introduce Captain Braxton here.

However, in my theoretical universe, they could travel from point A to point C (the alternate universe works here if you will as well.) This is like what the villain of that aforementioned Voyager episode did. He wanted to go into the future and claim technology. Or it's like how Braxton brought Seven into the future to help fix the timeline from there.

So Nero and Spock could create a divergent alternate universe in the future as well, but it would diverge at that point, not earlier, and wouldn't overwrite anything. They could do a similar story.

I'll respond to your points in a list.

1. I didn't want it in TNG. I wanted it beyond TNG. So why are you imagining it set in the TNG era? I'm talking about a third era (ENT can be considered part of TNG) that would be created as a result of the new movie.

2. It would be a continuation of things already done, yes. But you go on to say people would complain about it as if it was a reboot. Like some have done about TNG, no? So...

3. They didn't have to use the same actors. The actors were picked because they were to play a young crew.

4. Flashy effects would be fine 200 years from TOS. If anything, they make less sense in XI because we know things were less flashy then.

5. Hardcore fans have been crying havoc about canon issues since TNG and probably earlier. There are some people whose definition of Star Trek stops at TNG, some sooner, some earlier. Some likewise approach it from the other end, starting at ENT or VOY, and many will soon approach it starting at the new movie and nothing before (possibly, anyway.)

But how would they cry about continuity issues? The future's been mentioned in a lot of episodes, but probably less than a season would be applicable (because of all the timeline changes) to anything set in the 25th century up to the 28th century (29th and 31st are slightly better defined.) There's no continuity, and any that there is could be worked into it.

6. It could be not "normal Trek" if it took place in the future.

7. Then your definition of reboot differs from mine. I don't think they stand to gain by erasing or overwriting. They could expand and add without using an alternate universe. This would satisfy anyone.

Or, I don't see how it wouldn't.

Your points seem to be dealing with TNG, as if 'era three' would be like TNG. But compare TNG to TOS- they are pretty different.

And to make it an even better back-in-time travel concept, we could call it Star Trek IV

Well, having finally SEEN the movie, I can actually post an opinion on it:

It was a good movie, and I LOVED not seeing William Shatner's mug plastered across my screen, but it wasn't Trek. Out of deference to (the) Spock(s), I will call it Trek Prime. It also looked like the creators are actually going to try to make another TV show or at least another movie judjing by the closing sequence (who wouldn't try to recreate SUCH a money-maker!), and while Trek will always hold a special place in my heart, I am willing to give Trek Prime a go, provided that the quality keeps up. My political philosophy is "integrate, don't segregate", but in this case I think that "seperate but equal" might be a good description. It also had more nits than I can easily count, and I will get to those in a following post.

Nits in numerical order:

1. Why are there still farms in Iowa? Doesn't the Federation have REPLICATORS??? (But then again, we're changing everything ELSE in the seires, so why not that?)
   
2. When ever McCoy shoots him with a hypo, Kirk yells or does something else to indicate that it hurts. Star Trek hypos use an atomization system, which is painless.(But then again, we're changing everything ELSE in the seires, so why not that?)
3. OK, so McCoy's mud-(something) vaccine causes Kirk's hands to swell dramatically. Ok, the vaccine seems a bit rapid in its effects (It can take hours for something to get absorbed into a person's system), but not being a doctor, I will refrain from comment. However, with that much fluid or blood or air or whatever in his hands, Kirk should be in EXCRUCIATING pain. But he doesn't seem to notice the swelling until he looks at himself.
4. Not only do Kirk and gang make it from hard vacuum (probably ORBIT) to breatheable atmosphere in a surprisingly short period of time, but there is also no re-entry heat. And, they slow down from sevearl hundred KPS to survivable fall speed in an instant: the G-force from that sort of thing would puree any human, even with a shock-absorbing suit. Finally, they do this with PARACHUTES! I don't have the #s in front of me, but that does not seem like it would work.
5. Ok, so for whatever reason Nero is compelled to drill into Vulcan's core to drop the hole. Then, the planet is destroyed in a matter of minutes. However, I read somewhere that it would take hours or even days for a black hole at an Earth-sized planets's core to destroy it. Granted, the planet would become uninhabitible long before then, but in the movie the whole thing implodes in a few minutes.
6. There seems to be an absecnce of the usual acceleration ring around all of the movie's black holes, but then again, these ARE the Magical "Red Matter" Kind Of Black Holes.
7. In order to produce a black hole of the size pictured in the movie, the "Red Matter" would have to be EXTREMELY dense, dense enough that the blob in Spock-Prime's ship would be distorting the light around it. Yet we see no warping or other odd effects (then again, maybe THAT'S why it looks red....)
8. When Kirk's pod crashes onto Delta Vega, it makes a rather small hole in the ice, considering that it FELL FROM SPACE!!!! (I have seen several complaints that this Delta Vega does not look like the Delta Vega in TOS, but most Earth-like environments DO have polar ice caps, so that can be explained.)
9. The large, red entity that chased Kirk seems to see remarkebly well, considering that it does not appear to have any eyes!!
10. Spock-Prime then fends the creature off with a burning torch. Why did Nero give him a TORCH? "I'm going to stick him on this ice cap to watch his planet die, and I'd better give him a torch in case he gets attacked by a large ice preditor with ESP(see #9)"? And, how did he light it?
11. The size of Vulcan in D-V's sky indicates that it is about as far away from Vulcan as the moon is from Earth, maybe a little farther. If so, a) Spock-Prime would experiance a considerable lag in watching the fireworks, and b ) [ EDIT: bloody smilies] the tidal forces from the balck hole would quickly destroy D-V, as well. Even if my math is off, the effect would not be pretty.
12. A regular super-nova could never threaten anything more than it's immediate system in the time frame depicted by the movie, unless it had some sort of Subspace component that allows it to travel fater than light. Even then, I find it hard to beieve that it would threaten the ENTIRE UNIVERSE!!
13. Also, how come these universe-destroying celestial events never seem to happen in a place or time where the Fed cannot correct them?
14. This is just a complaint about beaming in general, but it especially applies to the water scene: unless someone is beaming into a perfect vacuum, there is going to be air or something in their place. Where does it go? The only thing I can think of is that it is somehow displaced by the transport process, but that would create a definate "pop" whenever someone beamed down.
15. An average human can hold their breath for around a minute before passing out, which in water means drowning (some people can do more, but they are swimmers etc. who have special training). Now, even assuming that there is air in the tank itself, Scotty is underwater for considreably longer than that, and he comes out conscious and sputtering.
16. The tank again. When Kirk opens the hatch, there is surprisingly little water, considering that the tube was full and apparently under some level of pressure. I would have expected an absolute torrent.
17. Nero bores a hole into San Francisco. The problem is, that hole looks like it goes deep into the seabed, probably penetrating the crust. If so, even though Kirk saves the day, there is going to be MASSIVE geological disruption all through the city. Earthquakes, probably some lava, maybe an few islands forming in the bay, that sort of thing. Yet, at the end of the movie, eveything seems hunky-dory.
18. The Narada lingers in that black hole for an awefully long time. It shouold have gone right in in the space of a few seconds.
19. Also, the black hole that swallows the Narada seems about the same size as the one that ate Vulcan. Since there was hundreds of times more "Red Matter" involved in the creation of the latter, it seems like it would have been, i dunno, HUNDREDS OF TIMES BIGGER?
20. Finally, I find it a bit odd that a black hole destroys the Narada, considering that it passed through A BLACK HOLE in the beginning with no ill effects. (Actuaolly, this could be explained by #19, if the second hole actually WAS larger.
21. Yep, one last one: In the conversation between the two Spocks, yound Spock taks to his older self. This seems odd, considering that Prime would remember everything he though in the "old days". (Spock is widely considered to have a photographic memory.)

Zyx,

I have no idea what you're talking about. That is, I don't know what you think I'm responding to. I just wanted to link to tvtropes to expand upon what I'd said earlier, and to point out my own distaste for Trek time travel. I was not making a comment on Kirk's childhood (which, no matter how quickly it passed, was more than we'd seen previously).

I was strictly responding to the time travel conversation.

Scoutdog,

Yeah, I agree with several of those. I think somewhere around the time they shot red matter into the Vulcan core, I just decided to give up on scientific explanations for anything. Now, I'm going to be a geek:

1. Replicators were invented after TOS, and before TNG.

3. I have had one of my hands swell up dramatically, and it wasn't really excrucating. It was itchy, though - and I noticed it because my hand felt fairly stiff. That said, I think that was played for laughs, which I think brings about another set of criticisms.

8. The pod probably had some kind of deceleration thing going on.

9. It might have seen via sonar, or tracked via scent, or had some other means to sense its surroundings.

10. I imagine Spock improvised. but also, Nero wanted Spock to survive to see Vulcan's destruction. It's not as if a torch would enable him to get back to Nero's ship to seize control.

18. This is about as dramatically problematic as all those times people live long enough to deliver a few last words, before their eyes close and they fade away.

21. I can't figure out what your objection is here - that Spock spoke to his younger self, or what?

Suspension of disbelief (hung a lampshade, as you put it) is a well known story device experimented with for a number of reasons;

-- Unless you clearly define what is it that Kirk says or does to create such an observation from you, how can i rationalize your thoughts within context other than through wild guesses?

So, from this perspective, i must resume;

- The story paradigm might be illustrated with these rather simplistic terms.

1) Narada targets two planets for revenge.

2) Enterprise meets it twice, fails once.

3) Narada is destroyed.

- The story structure then exploits what is called the mid-point and spins (as per Syd Field's theory)

1) Kelvin encounters (accidental i might add)

2) Starfleet recruits train for years

3) Vulcan under attack (spin)

4) Pike captured, tortured and refuses to reveal Earth defense (MID-POINT, but not in *my* mind)

5) Sulu & Kirk beamed up after failing

6) Spock dumps Kirk on Delta Vega (spin)

7) Ambassador Spock's reveals, Montgomery+Kirk back aboard

8) Spock fails to save his mother

9) Kirk battles it ALL (everything is on the line at this point) out with him (*True* MID-POINT)

10) On route to Earth

11) Chekov's Saturn trick

12) Spock & Kirk split apart (spin)

13) Narada mining drill sabotaged by Spock

14) Enterprise covers Jellyfish for the ramming *attempt* but red triggers under control (spin)

15) Kirk beams out

16) Black Hole collapses, Nero stuck on the Horizon for awhile.

17) Warp core down - implosion.

9 to 17 are in Act-3; usual paradigm delayed by Orci/Kurtzman pattern.

Innovation in basic principles of screenwriting.

I really disapointed with the plot.

Each time authors become too lazy to learn the Star Trek story they invent some "alternative universe" or timeline change ...

And btw: I liked "old style" Romulans way more.

1. Those really aren't replicators as of TNG canon.

3. Totally agreed - like I said, i think they played that for laughs. My comment about swelling probably being itchy was just minor detail.

10. Did you follow the link I gave you? Kirk improvized a gorram mortar while fighting the Gorn captain. What I mean is, Trek characters are more like pulp characters and pull off implausible MacGyver stuff all the time.

18. Red matter's darned weird, really. I wouldn't be surprised if it were some kind of freaky holographic matter (as in every piece carries the blueprint for the whole, not that it's literally a hologram) that causes the same effect no matter the quantity, just to handwave the ending away. Probably with some technobabble about zero point or dark energy and/or dark matter thrown in.

21. Spock doesn't remember the conversation from when he was younger, because that conversation never happened in his past. His past was one in which Vulcan was never destroyed. The movie created a branching timeline. But whether or not he remembered it, I'm sure he had his reasons for meeting himself and letting his younger self initiate contact.

I'm pretty sure nothing in the movie actually resembled a singularity or a supernova. I'm surprised you didn't mention how not only did a supernova spread several light years at ftl speeds as well as threaten worlds that far away with literal destruction could be instantly snuffed out by a black hole. I mean, you mentioned it wrt Vulcan, but that exploding star was even more egregious.

And 24 made absolutely no sense to me. I mean, "Scotty, rocket jump the Enterprise out of the black hole!"