tyr222

Join Date 04/2008

+17

Tyrs lesson on Capitol ships

Hainus miss use of caps

rule #1 DONT SPAM CAP, its hugely expensive to upg capitol ship crew past 4ish. and the biggest problem is that you need your capitol ships high lvl. tonsa lvl 1 caps suck ass and you dont want to split exp betwen all your capitols

rule #2 PICK THE RIGHT ONES, advent start with a progen, then get halcyon for beam buff and tele push vs carrier fleets. TEC you need a marza for planet bombing and eventually missle barrage, and a Kol for flak burst. vasari use an egg and for the love of god dont buy a second cap until you get it to lvl 6, planet suct is such a MASSIVE advantage for vasari its unacceptable to split exp between another cap your egg needs 100% of the exp.

rule #3 DONT LET IT DIE, keep repair bays handy, keep all focus and you micro centered around your capitol cuz when it goes boom your crippled. recognize the treats to your cap, many bombers will shred your captol ships. so will nano bomb from vasari evacuator supported by minimal fleet. upg assailants are nasty to your capitol ships. watch for an enemy trying to trap you cap in a gravity well. evacuator can disable phase jumps, so can akkon and subverters. coupled with a jump inhibitor your caps doomed. never let an enemy build a jump inhibitor where your fighting, dont jump your cap into a planet that has a jump inhib unless your sure you can get it out before BOOM

rule #4 PRIORITIZE YOUR EXP, this is the one that i respect the most in a skilled player, i see people bone this up all the time even my fellow DTs. *cough* Howthe? mr eleventy billion lvl 1-2 caps *cough* as vasari i personally believe my number one goal is to get my egg to lvl 6. dont destroy enemy factories if they are loseing and just feeding you lrf for exp. never leave cap to bomb planets and continue with fleet unless its already 6 get that exp. try and keep your fight a 1 front war so your cap is getting 100% of the exp of all kills you get. once you have a lvl 6 egg take it outa the fight and suct planets and stick your 2nd cap in to get 100% of exp if you can afford to. early game when clearing planets make sure your caps getting all that exp from malitia. planet bombers are soft and worth 60 exp =D

-TYRS SIGNATURE MICRO TRICKS- =D to help level up your capitols ships EARLY GAME

*terran or desert have 20+ militia on it? instant lvl 6 is so nice but its early and i have no fleet thats ok heres how you clear it with just a capitol and a scout. jump you scout in and que it in a circle around gravity well and all 20+ mailitia play ring around the rosey all day while you pick of planet bombers colo, build a repair and some beam/missle plats then jump scout out and tear em up

*if you have someones fleet covered horribly but you have em at a contested undug in planet (maybe uncolonized) or a choke point, instead of hitting full force so they reteat and dig in. attack with the smallest/or most lopsided amount/composition you feel comfortable with so they stay and cuz they think they can take you so you can lvl your cap. usually carriers so they can pick off those tasty lil 30 exp lrf.

strategy

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*cough* Howthe? mr eleventy billion lvl 1-2 caps *cough*

I only do with against carrier spam. I always pick the egg first, but then I get 1 Kortul and 1-2 Skiranta's. It's a pretty awesome combo. Again, I usually try to maximize xp, but sometimes you do what you have to to win.

Anyway, sieges are worth 65, and my favorite trick is selecting nano-bomb as my lvl 1 ability and then go to a ice/volc with 3 siege and nano-bomb each siege and let the cap main weapons take out a cobalt. Bam! Instant level 2 and now you can colonize.

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I'm agree with you. But the right one is depend of the tactic.

TEC - marza , kol - fine. But sova is good choise too in rushing strategys and give you advantage early game. Dunov is perfect for 2nd cap and its fine with Kol

Advent - Mother is the best you can choise as 1st cap, but other good options is the radiance. It has maybe the best skill synergy and +vengeance (if u pick Rapture as 2nd) is perf. If you pick as 2nd Revelation guidance mean perma DA for your radiance and good disable for enemy caps/supporters (thanks to the reverie).

Vassari - not good caps combo and building of evacuator is compulsory. Otherwise the antorak is good for rushing strategys and his ultimate give your fleet an advantage.

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evacuator can disable phase jumps, so can akkon and subverters.

Humm many people these days seem too think subverters also disable caps... As I remember they don't.

Anyway nice how too use caps tyrr.

Grtz,
Flipkik

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TEC - marza , kol - fine. But sova is good choise too in rushing strategys and give you advantage early game. Dunov is perfect for 2nd cap and its fine with Kol

Advent - Mother is the best you can choise as 1st cap, but other good options is the radiance. It has maybe the best skill synergy and +vengeance (if u pick Rapture as 2nd) is perf. If you pick as 2nd Revelation guidance mean perma DA for your radiance and good disable for enemy caps/supporters (thanks to the reverie).

yeah subs dont get caps, but they ruin fleets. sorry i put that in in my haste.

all im sayin, radiance is good for 1v1 small map, sova maybe on point blank. everything else ive had great players experiment with cap combos on me other than the ones i listed and they all inevitably fail due to cost and easy common sense counters

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Quoting -Ravager-,

reply 2

Vassari - not good caps combo and building of evacuator is compulsory. Otherwise the antorak is good for rushing strategys and his ultimate give your fleet an advantage.

FALSE the vassari egg devistator combo is great

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AND TYR YOU KARMA WHORE

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kwm1800

Join Date 03/2008

+26

Tyr, let me just ask a question: do you think capital ships in general are balanced well? My biggest grief is that there are some capitals which just don't do their jobs very well and not even worth considering (i.e Sova in big map)

As I said again and again, maybe exception of support capital ships, the players should not be penalized for not picking a specific ship (egg, Mazda, mothership) for their first cap.

I want to use Vasari siege cap as a first cap. I think they are more amazing than Mazda. But I can't choose it because I know that I will be in huge disadvantages.

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you totally CAN do just fine if you start with a Kortul or Vulkoras, the only catch is that by doing so you're commiting to a very different type of strategy than you would by starting with a Jarrasul.

The Vulkoras is very strong in ship to ship combat with Phase Missile Swarm, and basically 100% of its weapons able to fire on front arc targets (perfect for 1on1 with enemy cap ship). its also incredibly strong at destroying enemy platforms with Assault Specialist (the implosive warheads add ALOT of bonus damage vs. platforms). if you open with this ship it means your plan is to harass their asteroids very early on in the game. you're basically doing the Vasari pirate raider play. you fast tech up to 3 civil labs and research salvaging then you go blow up their labs and trade ports and harvest the cash.

The Jarrasul is 100% necessary if your main plan is economic development. It is also 100% necessary for rapidly destroying enemy colonies in the midgame. If you didn't open with one you should probably get one as your 2nd ship. Still, its totally viable to open with a Kortul or Vulkoras if you play the strategy correctly.

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Mothership is the best thing you can start with as advent, get it lvl 3 fast, pay for the lvl 3 if you need to, the lvl 2 colonise is such a boost that i always have it at the second planet i colonise (after roid)

Of course if you see a vas egg close to your start, go radiance cuz the mothership will die fast against that crap and the radiance wins over egg with ... ease

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My issue with the Egg ability for stopping jumps is that it does not have 360 arc. It would be far more useful if it did, especially as means of escape.

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Quoting transitive,

reply 8

I don't think this would work all too well. Just because the Vulkoras only becomes a "siege can" type of bomber after a few lvl's. And I don't like missile swarm as it is now. It's a PHASE MISSILE SWARM... and it doesn't profit from phase missile upgrades

Grtz,
[_]-Flipkik

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Quoting Flipkik,

reply 11

i've found that Vulkoras only needs level 3 to be pretty fierce as an asteroid raider. 1 point in Missile Swarm and 2 points in Assault Specialist. you'll be able to rapidly frag extractors and construction frigates and get out in tact without difficulty. if you can get up to level 5 (l2 missile swarm, l3 assault) and supplement with 10-12 assailants (and maybe 3 or 4 junsurak sentinels if they fast-teched up to carriers) you can start wiping out labs and trade ports very easily as well.

as far as the missle swarm not piercing shields goes...i know, seems kinda lame. its just a direct damage ability though. you could argue that its equally lame that the Kol's Gauss Cannon doesn't benefit from autocannon upgrades or the gauss platform upgrades (both seem like they should apply, but they don't). Oh well.

On the other hand nearly all of the main weapons on the Vulkoras are phase missile launchers (about 80% of the damage is missiles) so the Vulk benefits more from phase missile upgrades than any other cap ship, despite the bit about missile swarm not getting any love.

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yes i agree 100% you must pick the right starting capitol ship for the map. if i where to see you buying the wrong starting capitol in a 1v1 or team game near me i would know imidiately i already won. likewise vs my fellow [DT]s if i where to buy a capitol not suited to the map i could garentee my lose no matter how well i perform. further more even games when i pick the right cap and get mouse happy and pick the wrong ability at any point it hurts my game very badly. i recommend if your new that you not only watch other players use capitols and read forum discussions about them, but maybe in single player buy all 5 and use em a little to understand all their abilities.

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Opening with a Kortul also plays into an aggressive strategy. The Kortul is basically is a nightmare matchup against every other cap ship in the game except the Radiance. Beginning at level 2 (you need power surge and disruptive strikes) you go just go hunt down and destroy enemy cap ships with ease with a relatively small commitment on your own. A level 2 or 3 Kortul and and escort of about 8 or 10 Assailants make an ideal cap ship fragging squad. Once you've completed your missing of hunting down their opening cap you can expand very aggressively and know that you have little to fear from your enemy for quite a long time.

The Jarrasul is 100% necessary if your main plan is economic development. It is also 100% necessary for rapidly destroying enemy colonies in the midgame. If you didn't open with one you should probably get one as your 2nd ship. Still, its totally viable to open with a Kortul or Vulkoras if you play the strategy correctly.

this make no sense to me ;l

kortul get RAPED by Jarrasul evacuator because of nano bomb, jarrasul rapes all cap shits because of nano bomb ;l and it can colo, its the best of both world. there is literally no reason to pick any other capitol other than the egg its a horrendous blunder in my opinion to commit yourself to colonizer frigate, give up nano bome and eventually planet suct. i consider it a horrible blunder to make a second cap beyond the egg until after you get planet suct for exp purposes.

the eggs abilities are simply SOO stacked and overpowered early game compared to all other vasari capitols its absolutly manditory for first capitol. buy your support capitols as i like to think to of them after you have planet suct and im sure most all skilled players will agree. trust me ive tried other starting builds for vasari and nothing even comes close

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in the long run a level 6 egg is a more effective cap ship killer because level 3 Nano Bomb is insane.

in the short run a Kortul has the advantage. if your plan is to go hunt down his cap ship early in the game you will gain better performance from a Kortul for these reasons

1) you will be jumping to distant grav wells and pressing the attack as much as possible. all that phase jumping will leave you with basically no anti-matter at all at the start of a fight. no anti-matter means no nano-bomb. the kortul on the other hand has a powerful passive ability and far superior damage from regular guns.

2) the egg is a slow ship. it will take it much longer to fly to enemy territory and begin your hunting. it also makes it much harder to escape if something goes wrong.

3) egg is quite vulnerable to getting swarmed by light frigates. i know you probably haven't had this happen to you very much since lights suck alot for most things. they don't suck at killing the egg though. its more fragile and has less fire power than a Battleship and in the early game it just doesn't have anywhere near enough AM to take out a whole bunch of light frigs with Nano Bombs. the Kortul can just shoot up a whole bunch of them the old fashioned way.

don't mis-interpret what i'm saying though. the Egg is fantastic and if your general early game strategy is rapid colonization and expansion there's simply no alternative. however, if you're pursuing a different early game strategy then you should use a different capital ship.

in most 1on1 or even 2on2 matches the strongest opening is to just use the conventional approach and pick an egg and go make colonies and wait until the midgame to worry about bringing the fight to your enemy. you won't always be in that situation though. sometimes you can win a 1on1 easily just by catching an overextended enemy cap ship at an awkward time. ambush a Progen with a Kortul while its in the middle of fighting a planet militia. that produces great results. sometimes you'll be taking an eco feed in a team game and the disadvantage of having to use colony frigates isn't that big of a deal so you just pick the most aggressive cap ship you can get as your first one (probably a Vulkoras). there are lots of situations where it might be correct to use a non-standard opening strategy and thats where I recommend going with a Kortul or Vulkoras instead of a Jarrasul. but for standard openings Jarrasul is best by a large margin.

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On small maps where you are likely to only colonize 1 or 2 planets Radiance is a better first choice than Mothership for the same above reason. Otherwise the Egg dominates the decisive early skirmishes with its overpowered abilities.

the eggs abilities are simply SOO stacked and overpowered early game compared to all other vasari capitols its absolutly manditory for first capitol.

Nano Disassembler HAS to be nerfed so that the Egg won't dominate all other caps on its own. The damage should be cut in half or removed completely. The armor penalty is a better approach since it's powerful but requires other ships to do significant damage. Other Vasari caps need a chance.

Drain Planet gives you too much resources too.

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You do not regenerate antimatter if you are under reverie.

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if you fight a vas as advent on a 1V1 go radiance don't even think about it, NOT A SINGLE CAP can fight a radiance head to head alone, radiance will crush anything, detonate antimater means he'll be the only to launch abilitys and his armor and regenerate antimater boost makes him able to keep detonate for ever

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Quoting Space Dog,

reply 16

If you're Advent fighting Vasari your 2nd cap has to be Radiance to counter the ridiculousness of Nano Disassembler. A Halcyon would just be a juicy target for lvl 3 Nano Bomb and a bunch of upgraded Assailants. And the Radiance counters Marza as well if there happens to be one.

On small maps where you are likely to only colonize 1 or 2 planets Radiance is a better first choice than Mothership for the same above reason. Otherwise the Egg dominates the decisive early skirmishes with its overpowered abilities.

the eggs abilities are simply SOO stacked and overpowered early game compared to all other vasari capitols its absolutly manditory for first capitol.

Nano Disassembler HAS to be nerfed so that the Egg won't dominate all other caps on its own. The damage should be cut in half or removed completely. The armor penalty is a better approach since it's powerful but requires other ships to do significant damage. Other Vasari caps need a chance.

Drain Planet gives you too much resources too.

You egg hater!!

Now serious
First forum get's flamed with carrier hating posts... Soon we'll be seeing NERF the egg posts? Does it never end!? The game is balanced now plz don't go begging for nerfs all the time wich could ruin it.

Well if your gonna start nerfing planet suckt then I could just start demanding a nerf on missile barrage too(wich I don't). Both abilities are possible too counter and do allot of damage if you don't counter it.

Vasari might have their almighty egg. Yes I agree the egg is verry powerfull. But they don't have a one cap sollution too sc like the other races. Everyone gets something look at the whole picture.

Yes the egg dominates early game skirmishes... But don't you think it suits vasari? It just simply is a fact that vasari are the race with early game advantage this is what devs probebly intended too create.

(yes I'm a huge egg fan trying desperatly too defend the egg)

Grtz,
[_]-Flipkik

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Quoting ravok2789,

reply 5

Quoting -Ravager-, reply 2Vassari - not good caps combo and building of evacuator is compulsory. Otherwise the antorak is good for rushing strategys and his ultimate give your fleet an advantage.
FALSE the vassari egg devistator combo is great

and what's the combo here?

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is it possible to play "fixed teams" 5 on 5?

(everyone ive seen so far has said like:

1 on 1

2 on 2

3 on 3

(exept tin multi then they talk about 4 on 4's)

is it possible to play 5 on 5 with the AI???

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More than having OP abilities what bothers me about the Egg is that it is the only Vasari cap that you ever see picked first. I want to see alternative opening strats not just the same old Nano+Assailants cap eating blah blah. Vulkoras or Kortul should be better for rushing. Right now the Egg is an all-in-one ship that is so much more powerful than the rest it's insane not to pick it. It gets boring fast. That's the reason I don't like to play Vas.

NOT A SINGLE CAP can fight a radiance head to head alone, radiance will crush anything

I wish. KL3MZ, try taking your Radiance against a Marza. You'll be humiliated badly. (At lvl 6+ it might work.)

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HEM!

try to see my post on marza 6, i'll kick your marza with a progenitor man ^^

and a radiance won't even let a chance to shoot at marza ^^

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kwm1800

Join Date 03/2008

+26

The game is NOT BALANCED.

As everyone says, WE ALL KNOW we should go for teh egg for the most of the time (or mothership, or Mazda, etc)

That's not balanced.

Quite many capital ships need some SERIOUS BUFF for their abilities. I think only the egg, mothership and Mazda (in lesser degree) are balanced as capitals (hence they are the ones built as the first capital.) others are having some serious problems in many regards.

No, I am not a newbie, I am rather so-so player But at least I know how to fight properly....

P.S Btw isn't it already proved that teh egg WILL win most of fights vs. all capitals except Mazda? I think SageWon posted the result of the 1vs1 fighting somewhere in this forum...

1st place : Mazda

2nd place : teh EGG!

and rest of them are about equal/worse/better

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what we all know is this: starting from scratch with full anti-matter a Jarrasul beats almost everything in 1v1.(maybe a Radiance can beat it)

what we neglect to talk about is that fights enver start from scratch. a single cap ship can't be everywhere at once, particularly one as slow as a Colonizer cap. phase jumps happen. reinforcements happen. opponents with surprising strategies happen.

i think the concensus that "egg is the best/egg is overpowered" is based only on how effective the ship is in some very common situations. i don't see this as a balance issue. the ship has very high performance under certain circumstances and its relatively easy to play so as to create those circumstances. in any given situation one thing is gonna be the best in that situation. thats just a fact of life given that we're playing Sins of a Solar Empire instead of Chess. just because the situation the Egg is the best in comes up alot doesn't mean the ship is imbalanced.

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