Help with the numbers

Hi All my 1st post so be gentle, please!

I'm having probs working out how the research figures work. I have looked at the forums so I'm not TOTALLY clueless.

I'm a few hours in to the game (immense uni with very slow tech - god knows why!!). I have spent a while researching the Technological capital & building it only to find it had no effect on my research!?

This was built on my capital world (size 11). I hava a base research of 101 (capital 24, Innovation 5, xeno lab 8, xeno lab with +700% bonus 64) - so far so good

My sliders are set to 23%/27%/50% - 50% research & I have civ wide research bonus of 49%

Other pertinent info may be industry points - I have 76 points with a 43% planetary bonus (33% from some other capital & 10% from the moon I think). I do also have a starbase giving 9% bonus to both Production & research.

On the planet screen my mil/soc/res figs are 30 - 28 - 91 respectively (research has been favoured - giving the 25% bonuses at the expense of the other 2) after replacing the non-boosted xeno lab with the capital (100% res bonus) these increase to 30 - 28 - 139 - seems like some improvement!

However before the upgrade on the details my tp (tech points) for the planet was 58 and after was still 58!? I tried replacing the xeno lab & upgrading a market center instead but this had no effect either (except to increase the 139 to 150 - but still 58tp).

I have checked with my other 7 planets & no changes were made to research, (or anything else for that matter)

Any ideas? is the 58tp on the details screen capped in some way (planet size, civ size?). This 58tp seems the only important figure as this is the one that shows up on the tech tree screens (added to all the others) & the time taken to complete the research.

Sorry about the length of the post but it seems I spent 25ish game weeks for nothing on this. Any replies would be appreciated.

Ploppy3

17,600 views 19 replies
Reply #1 Top

My first question is going to be, which version of the game (Dread Lords, Dark Avatar, or Twilight of the Arnor) & which patch are you playing on?  My fading memory is bringing up a past problem of the tech capital doing nothing...but what version that was, I'm going to look up in the mean time.

That or something I'm not too familiar with, perhaps since you only have 50% devoted to research, you're only netting 50% of the tech capital's bonus...  93 (the research total after the non-boosted lab is gone) increased by 50% would place you on 139.

Reply #2 Top

Thanks for quick reply!

TW  ver 2.02

With regard to tech capital not doing anything - it is - ie increasing research figure from 91 to 139. the problem is that this doesnt seem to relate to anything in real terms - my research values on tech tree remain the same.

I have noted since posting that 30 + 28 ie my military & social = the magic 58. So as my sliders are set 50/50 my research would also be 58!

However what then is the point of the research figure, if your research is say 10 or 139 or even 1000 this has no bearing on the figure sent to research, it is only your percentage of the production!

Any ideas anyone?

Ploppy3

Reply #3 Top

Sorry me again!

Further analysis has shown the above post to be true ie my 76 industry points * 52% bonus (43 bonus + 9 starbase ) = 116

divided 50/50 between military/social & research = 58 each

I undestand your calculation as to how 139 research is calculated ( 101-8= 93 * 50% {100% capital bonus but with 50% slider waiting)

My problem is that this figure of 139 (or 91 or 1000) seem to be irrelevent.

Please help

And I'm doing this for fun ???

Reply #4 Top

Yet again

Just another problem to throw into the mix.

I mentioned that I had the focus setting ON to research

From the calculations above this doesnt seem to have an effect either, as the maths work out without this being factored in, but when turned off the numbers do change to 40-38-78 ?? with tp dropping from 58 to 50?

I'm getting more & more confused - perhaps time to fire up Civ 4 again?

Reply #5 Top

I think what you're seeing is the input/output difference.  Your "input" of basic research spending remained the same once you built the tech capital, but your "output" of actual Research Points increased.  You should have another item listed in the domestic stats screen, "Bonus Production/Research", which uses a different spending mechanism to add on the extra RPs (I think it's a 2 for 1 deal, but I'm a bit rusty on the exact numbers).

As for the tech tree, the values listed are the total RPs required to fully research each tech.  In my version (Dread Lords v1.5x), your own total RP production isn't listed on the research screen, or if it is I've never seen it.  It's only an intermediate value anyway, as the only value I'm actually interested in is the time to finish researching the available techs.  This might be why it seems to be irrevelent- you're looking for a number that isn't on that screen.  Try testing it with adjustments to your research spending slider, the time to completion for the current tech, and your planetary RP output.

Edit: Missed your last post.  Focusing production throws another wrench into the equation, since whatever production you get from focusing is not subject to all bonus enhancements, so it'll never be as efficient as unfocused output unless you have absolutely no bonuses of any kind.

Reply #6 Top

Before I start anyone for a game of 5 dimensional blindfolded chess? - may be easier to understand

Okay TA ver 2.02 has a breakdown of the research info on the top right of the research screen (the one with all the tech trees) - this shows total tp (this does equate to the total tp from the details screen from each planet added together) + research treaty bonus = total tp - in my case 193 + 19 = 212.

I have made sure all colonies are not producing anything new this turn except this one upgrade - all in the middle of a project+ship.

Once I complete turn & create tech capital the following occurs:

my total tp DROPS by 4 to 189 + 19 =208

My spending expenses change dramatically: ie

Military was 53bc - now 72bc?    Social was 65 - now 49?   research was 193 - now 189 (same as tp above - possible reason for slight change is the upgrade of xeno lab to tech capital - thus changing base total from 101 to 93 on this colony)    Maintenance was 223 now 222 (xeno lab 6 upkeep capital only 5 I presume).

My military/social/ research per planet remain largely unchanged (a couple of 1 point adjustments on 2-3 colonies) except on the colony in question which went from 91 to 139 research as previously stated.

Bonus exp was 95bc now 117 (this make sense as I expected this as now receiving 100% {or 50% due to sliders} more research bonus to 1 colony - cant be bothered with the maths though!) I take it I get charged differently for this research now (50%) - is this why I see large fluctuations in my other expenses?

My turn to next tech is 5 & drops by 1 to 4 in keeping with using a turn.

I did the same with research slider dropped to 10% - this had no effect again on the tp's being produced however turns to tech completion DID change from 16 to 12??

Can anyone make any sense of all this - why the massive jump in Military exp & drop in social and what difference if any does research figures have - still seeems to be anchored firmly to the production figures.

Sorry about all this - seems like a maths lesson - but I cannot play a strategy game where I am making decions randomly with no idea why I should ever build another lab in my life?

Reply #7 Top

I'll comment on your last post first.

You're seeing a spike in military costs because you're charged for whatever military is funded, regardless of whether or not you use it.  You're only charged for social when you use it, even when it's funded.  The simple answer here is that since you're no longer building anything, the unused social is being transferred to military (with no bonuses, by the way), both decreasing your social expenses and increasing your military expenses.

The short version is that InfernalRS is (mostly) correct.  The somewhat longer version is that the screens you're looking at aren't updating.

The part where InfernalRS is not correct is the part where he states that focused production is not subject to bonuses.  It is-it is subject to any bonuses that happen after it gets there, but not before it leaves.  (For instance, focusing production on research provides all base production that arrives at research with a research bonus, but it is irrelevant whether the base production is taken from social or military as neither of their bonuses are used.)

As InfernalRS has said, though, adding focus to the mix throws another wrench into the works, particularly as TA's focus mechanism is (intentionally) not as efficient as DL/DA's-that is, although 25% of the base value is taken from military and social and given to research, only 20% of the base value (or 80% of the value taken, if you prefer) is given to research.

Additionally, it seems you're playing on a difficulty higher than Tough and throwing off all of my numbers.

-

However, it seems the real culprit at hand here is that the tech capital's bonus is stacking with the research bonus additively rather than multiplicatively (simplistically, it adds at most funding times base research, without accounting for any bonuses whatsoever).

This would seem to most definitely be a bug, as it works properly (multiplicatively, i.e. doubling the entire planetary output) in DL/DA.  Looking at the XML I can't see a difference, so something must have changed in the hard code.  :(

It's also a possibility that both your game and my game are bugged, though, so I'll wait on someone else for confirmation.  (Rather simple: Load up a game with a research bonus, cheat/research your way to tech capital, add money to "account", rush buy tech capital, compare before and after numbers.)

Random talking to myself (otherwise known as numbers) is shown below.

 

It's duplication time.

I have no bonuses on my randomly generated homeworld, so we're going to fake it.

Xeno lab on a 700% tile = 8 xeno labs, +1 xeno lab, + innovation complex, + manufacturing capital, + tech capital, + starport, + civ capital = 14 buildings.  Good thing I've got space.

40% research bonus from political party + customization points, 10% from planetary improvements = 50%.

10% social from industrial revolution, 10% social & 10% military from planetary improvements, 33% bonus to industry on homeworld from manufacturing capital, 10% bonus to industry from moon.

23% military funding, 27% social funding, 50% research funding, 100% overall production slider funding.

79 research (101 tp as displayed in improvement summary screen from colony management screen), for which I am being charged 50BC (domestic stats, economy, research) in addition to 16BC under bonus production/research (the two are unfortunately not distinguished from each other in that screen).  This is before adding the tech capital.

If I switch focus from off to research, I now have 82 tp shown in the colony management screen, and am being charged for 52 + 16 bonus.

After building the tech capital, my numbers are 130 tp in colony management (101 tp in improvement summary), 135 tp with focus on research, and 50 research spending/40 bonus production spending without focus as opposed to 52 research spending/41 bonus production spending with focus.

End of quote

For what it's worth, my above numbers don't take into account your building the tech capital over the non-boosted xeno lab, so they're off of yours slightly.  However, we can also see that even my base number of 79/82 is lower than yours of 91.  I assume you're playing on a difficulty higher than Tough?  A hidden research bonus is given to the player when a research bonus is present, of sufficient magnitude that it outclasses the research bonus itself at Suicidal, so I'd wager you're playing either Painful or Crippling from the looks of the bonus.  Either that, or there's something we're missing.

-

My research screen shows the number of BCs that I am spending on research, but not on bonus research.  In addition, it does not update until you fiddle with the sliders-or end your turn-and neither does the economic policy screen.

The best solution is simply to go out and "hit" your research up one point in the economic policy screen, which it won't actually go up any (still at 50%, not 51%), assuming you've taken it all the way to the right before modifying the other two to give yourself a 50% research output.

Important notice about bonuses (military/social/research): Half of the bonus you pay for, and it shows up under "bonus production/research".  The other half is free, and therefore does not show up anywhere but in the planetary screen.

Reply #8 Top

Honestly, it seems bugged.  What I would suggest is a controlled experiment to limit the varaibles still further and see whether or not things start making sense.  You could start a new game on a tiny map, one opponent with relations set to close, difficulty set to challenging (I believe that has no bonuses for you or the AIs), very fast research, and choose a race with no innate research bonus.  Your home planet should show 24 tp turn one.  Then build nothing, set the sliders to total production  100% research 100%, research straight to advanced computing, save the game, rush buy the tech capital and see if it shows 48 now instead of 24.  In my games the tech capital has always worked correctly, and I know it is the foundation of the zero year military conquest scores that fill the profiles of most of the players presently atop the Metaverse leader board.  I've got no explanation for this wierd behavior you're seeing.

The other answer would be to hope SoleSoul answers your question - he and Loupdinour are among our more prominent number crunchers :).  I most commonly just play and assume the mechanics are working as they should.

By the way, welcome :).

 

Edit: And there is SoleSoul as I'm typing this :).

Reply #9 Top

Well, the military and social changes are easy to explain- you completed the tech capital, and I assume you had no other social projects after that, so spending was diverted from social production to military production on that one planet.  Again, like focusing, this divertion bypasses your bonuses.  Another major factor where GCII differs from other strategy games is that if you aren't using your military and social production on a planet (no social projects and no ship being built), you aren't charged for the potential production.  This is a massive boon to your economic situation, and quite different from the civ series where you use it constantly regardless of what you're building.  You can stave off debt without reducing your spending percentage merely by not building items on your planets!

The RP drop was likely due to your tech capital bonus not quite making up for your loss of a Xeno Lab.  As for the time to discovery situation, the actual numbers should be helpful since you have access to them in your version.  You also don't need to wait a turn for the numbers to be updated- the moment you touch the sliders on the Domestic screen, all your planetary values are adjusted to fit the new percentages.

The 16 turns to 12 turns change in research time is, I assume, due to you adjusting the research slider down to 10%, noting the turns to discovery, restoring it to 50% for the turn button click, then checking it again next turn at 10%?  If that's what you did, then everything is normal- your acculumated research never drops, so it just does a future projection based upon your current RP production.

Edit: And there goes Sole Soul, as I'm typing, for the goal!  Heed his words more than mine, he's got the right version to compare against.

Edit edit: Sole Soul and I are both right about military production- any expense above what it takes to finish a ship or building is spent and wasted, but if you're building nothing, there's no expense as you don't have anything to spend it on.  (Unless this is another feature that changes outside DL.)

Reply #10 Top

Edit: And there is SoleSoul as I'm typing this .
End of quote

Honestly, it seems bugged.
End of quote

:)

I apologize for not getting to this sooner-I was gone for the majority of the day.  ;)

Reply #11 Top

Thanks all folks - my brain needs to cool off before attempting to unravel this

By the way this is on the 3rd or 4th difficulty from the bottom! as I felt I would try to break myself in gently being a newbie - how wrong I was!

Using an immense map & low difficulty would this throw the figures off (but I would assume in my favour given the above)?

Reply #12 Top

Using an immense map
End of quote

Research times and research values for techs, yes, but we're not talking about those.

& low difficulty
End of quote

No; you must have bonuses that you're not accounting for, then, because with 1% more research bonus than you (50% racial + 9% economic starbase), I wound up with less research.

To sum up: You found a bug.  The tech capital is counting as a racial bonus, when it's supposed to multiply everything by 2 (as it does in DL and DA).

Reply #13 Top

right got my head round this I think - thanks for the assistance

Thanks for info re expenses this bore out by adding item to production queue - had little effect on expenses this time.

I thought I would try with near as I could get it 100% Research (needed some social left to complete the capital)

At 98% research my research was showing as 154 in the mil/soc/res screen in the summary screen was 101tp ish (may have been slightly lower as 98% not 100%)

Research expenses were at 356bc & bonus was at 112bc

Research was showing as 356 +19 = 375

After completion: mil/soc/res risen from 154 to 235 - good thing although meaningless as about to prove. Research spending remained almost the same - give or take 3, bonus spending increase from - 112 to 159 - expected.

However tp for planet & on the research screen went down by the loss of the xeno lab - no gains for the capital despite the increase in expenditure (100% bonus showing in the bonuses section & on the summary)

In summary no +ve effect received (waited turns to see) only the expenditure is real

I realize now that this is a bug (with your help) however my main question still remains confused

WHAT IS BUGGED? is it only the Tecnological Capital (boo hiss) which can be lived without (although I HATE bugs) or worse yet the whole research figures? (which makes the game unplayable)

The reason I ask is I can still see no correlation between my research figures (labs etc) & my research tp which seem to be derived from the production % - see earlier posts rather than the research figures

In my example earlier where I had 76 prod points with a cumulative bonus of 52% = total 116 my research was 58tp & my military+social was 58 with a 50/50 slider waiting - what difference does it make if I have 19 resarch points, 91 or even a 1000, my tp is linked to the 50% waiting of the production figure not the research figure.

However when testing the earlier details of this post with 0/0/100% research sliders my research figure seems to be the pertinent one????

Sorry to go on a bit but I must get this clarified in order to get confused over later game issues or better yet go & play with the kids!

Reply #14 Top

I'm not doing the math tonight.

The numbers you've provided are inconvenient at best (98% research?), and I'd need a minimum of a total rundown of your bonuses, preferably with where you got them from.  For instance, planetary improvements gives +10 research/military/production.  This would help me match your numbers and attempt to figure out where exactly the issue is (apart from the bug already discovered with the tech capital).

You'll probably want to save your game beforehand, as I'm more than likely going to have you demolishing and building things, and apart from loading it up in cheat mode and using insta-build (ctrl + j), it would take several turns each time.

Honestly, a fresh game would be preferred, but I can work with one in progress.  Just so long as you don't bring focus into it, anyway.

However.

However tp for planet & on the research screen went down by the loss of the xeno lab - no gains for the capital despite the increase in expenditure (100% bonus showing in the bonuses section & on the summary)
End of quote

Research tp shown on the research screen is base only.  Tech capital adds bonus, which is not shown.

The other part of that shouldn't be possible-the tech capital should add 5+24+8*8 or 64+29 or 93, which is then multiplied by funding.  So at 50% funding, you should get 46 more out of the tech capital than without it in the planet screen.  As a xeno lab is only 8 (times funding), the research bonus you would need for a lab to outweigh the (bugged) capital is astronomical.

Reply #15 Top

OK, well to save Sole Soul some work :-)

 

I loaded up TA 2.02 with the following set up:

Custom Race- no bonuses other Political Party (War) and the inherent 5% pop. growth that Custom Races get (bet not many of you knew that)

Difficulty= Tough, so no bonuses or penalties

Using Terran Tech Tree

At 100% production with 100% research: homeworld produced 24RP, as expected.

To get to Advanced Computing one must research Planetary Improvement Tech, which gives a +10 research bonus. On the next turn my research correctly updated to 26RP (as it rounded down the 2.4 production to 2.0)

From there I tried a few different things

Built a Tech Capital and got 51 for my total

kept the TC and built a Xeno Lab on a normal tile and got 68

Demolished the Xeno Lab and built a new one on a 300% bonus tile and got 114 RP

Had to mess with the numbers but finally figured it out; there is actually two separate multiplications going on

and then those are added together.

Its like this in this istance:

(24 Base RP * 2) + {(24 * 0.1 rounded down) and that number in this case = 2}+ (8 Xeno Base * 2) + {(8 * 0.1 rounded down) in this case 0} + (24 Xeno Lab Bonus RP * 2)= 114

Only BASE production is multiplied against racial ability, bonus production is not.

Reply #16 Top

well, while my math in this instance IS correct lol, Sole Soul and I worked the numbers and found that the TC only will do the following:

It only doubles BASE production (though production from a bonus tile counts as Base)

It has a slight rounding issue, off a percent or so.

The tech capital while still useful in TA, is considerably weaker than its DL/DA counterpart

Its actually even less useful the higher difficulty and more research bonuses you have because it will NOT affect/double those at all.  But still doubling base production, especially on a world filled with Discovery Spheres will notice a strong increase.

Reply #17 Top

"Its actually even less useful the higher difficulty and more research bonuses you have because it will NOT affect/double those at all.  But still doubling base production, especially on a world filled with Discovery Spheres will notice a strong increase"

How come then I'm seeing on my colony (with a base research of 101 {93 once xeno lab is overwritten} which incidentally produces nearly 40% of my TOTAL research, NO increase in research tp on the details planetary screen or the research screen or indeed in the time to completion figures, given the weighting of this, surely more impact should be seen.

I accept that these figures may not update re "Research tp shown on the research screen is base only.  Tech capital adds bonus, which is not shown." - does this hold true for the planetary details tp as well?

 I still would expect to see a greater impact on my overall research from possibly 5 weeks remaining dropping to 2/3.

In summary, is what I,m looking at purely bad luck ie. everything seems to update fine, (expenses, planetary details showing a 100% bonus in the top right box, etc.) The screens I'm looking at ie Total Research on the Research screen & planetary details number breakdown per colony DO NOT show bonus details however the bonus is added on top.

Also may I be well over the 5 turns (bordering on 6) after completion of TC I'm just hovering above 4 - All seems to be a little against the odds.

With my example in the last post where my research is showing as 375ish does this really mean it is in effect nearer 500 in real terms. Does this effect the Civ Wide research bonus as well - 49% (gained from anomalies, class abilities, govt abilities {using the technologists 20% + sensors +1} etc?

i would like to point out that I am still a newbie & only been playing for 10 days or so - I have no idea how to go about starting the game in cheat mode etc.

I really do appreciate all your help here folks!

 

Reply #18 Top

My turn to do some of the testing here - from starting again & fiddling with starting res bonuses & no bonuses

My observations are that any bonuses DO NOT show in either the TP figures in planetary summary or in the Research screen - however expenses DO (bonus expenses) & bonuses DO effect the figures on the planet mil/soc/res. Bonuses also DO change the research time. - Good news

I then started up the saved game & found that if I set my research slider way down (2%) my research time changed from 5 weeks to 27 - obviously. Upon completing the TC this dropped to 20 weeks so an impact at last! Yippee!

So can we now conclude that this is not a bug afterall? - If someone with more knowhow than me can confirm this it would be appreciated. I have no way of knowing how to get to the Tech capital whilst only having 1 colony etc.

Not wishing to gripe about a great game but having some stats update immediately & others after a turn & yet more not showing bonuses applied makes an already complicated game tht much harder to get into. I hope this is addressed in future chapters/galciv 3.

Thanks again for all your patiance & help guys (and gals? possibly?)

Reply #19 Top

I can answer at least one of those points for you: the Research points listed at the top of the Research Screen is NOT your total research, it should be your total BASE research (though its never been quite right anyhow).  As for expenses, as in the Domestic Screen, you have to pay for the following: ALL of your BASE research, and 50% of all BONUS research.

Use that knowledge and see if it starts gelling more for you