Smoothing Out the Steep Learning Curve

from Stardock Forums

Am I exaggerating by saying this game has a steep learning curve?

I'm a newbie Twilight-of-Arnor player, looking for a good walkthrough. I haven't found one. In fact I think there is none.

What do I mean by a good walkthrough? It should essentially be a tutorial-walkthrough scenario, perhaps playable as a mod, but definitely playable, leading the player by the hand through all facets of the scenario, from beginning to end. This game is too complicated and too difficult to learn by just reading the manual or by listening to the in-game tutorials. I have done both of those, and when I play I still feel like I don't know jack diddly squat. I think I learn more and learn faster by reading some of the threads on this message board. But that's boring.

We newbies need a scenario that serves as a tutorial. Maybe it could be made as a mod. I think a tiny map would suffice. I think any race would suffice, though it would be well to have a tutorial-scenario for each path to victory. With this hands-on, tutorial-scenario approach, we would be playing as we learn. I think that would be the best and the most interesting way to learn.

The Tutor would consist of a series of popups, telling the player each action that he should perform. The Tutor would also make frequent comments, explaining why the player should or should not do something, how he can do things, what he should beware of, what he should plan ahead for, and so on.

I know that each race is different, and each player can develop his own winning strategies. But the purpose of a tutorial-walkthrough scenario--or better yet, a series of them, one for each victory path--would be to plant the beginner on firm ground with all of the game's tools and mechanics. Once he has those and some simple strategies offered by the Tutor, he can play a game on his own and develop his own strategies.

17,493 views 19 replies
Reply #1 from Stardock Forums Top

I can see what you mean, though I didn't have any problem

if you start a sandbox game with low difficulty you won't have any troubles with just the basics of video tutorials

and you will learn as you play

 

it's not THAT hard really, "X3 reunion" on the other hand has a way steeper learning curve for example ...

 

at that point I would not expect any more additional content for galciv2 ... maybe galciv3 or elemental ...

 

EDIT: and even though you seem to not like browsing the forums, the wiki might help here and there : https://www.galciv.wikia.com

Reply #2 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

I guess I don't see it as all that bad a learning curve, presuming a basic familiarity with the style of game.

There are surprises - I still come across tidbits on the forum that remind me I'm a relative newbie, but it's not all that complicated, just deep.

Jonnan

WindowBlinds - Free yourself of the default settings, customize your desktop.
Reply #3 from Stardock Forums Top

I am confident that if I stick with the game I will eventually become comfortable with it. But there are two things I dread about buying and starting a new game. One is that the game will have moments of excessive difficulty. Two is the process of learning how to play.

Game manuals are boring. Unfortunately in-game tutorials are rarely, if ever, as informative as the manual. And neither manuals nor tutorials are as informative as strategy guides, walkthroughs, and message boards. But those are boring too. Though I am thankful for the work that has been put into the textual resources for Gal Civ II, with respect to learning how to play it, Gal Civ II is unexceptional.

Reply #4 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

One of the best times with this game for me was when it was new and it seemed that every turn I'd learn or find something new. Like reading a great book for the first time. Didn't know how the AI would react, didn't really know any ways of taking advantage of the AI; It was like role playing since I didn't know how my chopices would effect the later game. I didn't necessarily do that great but it was fun. My only other 4x experience was with Civ2. So, enjoy your lack of knowledge.

This game is deep as Jonnan said. You will be finding new things even after you've mastered it. Posting specific questions is a great way to find out things. Or just read some old posts. A manual can never tell you all you need to know anyway.

Reply #5 from Stardock Forums Top

Quoting CaptainYar, reply 4
One of the best times with this game for me was when it was new and it seemed that every turn I'd learn or find something new. Like reading a great book for the first time. Didn't know how the AI would react, didn't really know any ways of taking advantage of the AI; It was like role playing since I didn't know how my chopices would effect the later game. I didn't necessarily do that great but it was fun. My only other 4x experience was with Civ2. So, enjoy your lack of knowledge.

This game is deep as Jonnan said. You will be finding new things even after you've mastered it. Posting specific questions is a great way to find out things. Or just read some old posts. A manual can never tell you all you need to know anyway.
End of CaptainYar's quote

Learning can be fun, but it can also be frustrating. I despise having to restart or reload because I have made a made a mistake that would have been avoided if I had played through a tutorial-walkthrough scenario that teaches me all the mechanics and tools I need to play comfortably. Lack of knowledge is not enjoyable when I become annoyed with questions not answered by the manual or in-game tutorial. For example when I want to design a ship I want to know exactly what a range of 0.1 sct means. (I still don't know the answer to that.) Or I'm playing the Yor and I send a constructor to build a starbase on an Ascension crystal. Then I become annoyed when I can't figure out why another constructor that I spent valuable credits on isn't able to upgrade it with a module.

Referring to a message board is a poor way to learn a game. In fact, so is the boring process of reading a manual. And so is a trial-and-error learning process that results in replays and reloads because of errors. Complicated games like Civilization IV and Gal Civ II need a full-fledged tutorial-scenario that make trips to a message board unnecessary.

I imagine that experience players have grown fond of a game they have become accomplished with. But have they forgotten moments of peevishness, annoyance, frustration, and anger they went through in their early days of play?

Reply #6 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

First off-I didn't read the manual.  Not until I had been playing the game for like six months, anyway, at which point it was largely irrelevant.

More than half of what I know about GC2 I learned simply from playing the game.  A large portion of the rest of that comes from the forums and the wikia.  And I enjoyed it.  Playing and learning wasn't boring.  Reading the forums wasn't boring.  Looking through the wikia to find something relevant to my situation wasn't boring.  Hell, reading the manual six months after I started playing the game wasn't boring.

I don't remember any peevishness or anger, but a couple of bugs have cropped up during my time playing GC2 that have certainly frustrated me, and one could say they were annoying-in that it is annoying to be 500 million BC in debt.

If you need a game to hold your hand, GC2 may not be for you.  But keep in mind it is a game, and the entire purpose of said game is to have fun.  It doesn't mean you have to do everything right, and it certainly doesn't mean you have to win in 12 turns, or even win every game.  Sometimes losses are even more enjoyable than wins.

But if text bores you and you can't have fun without having a perfect game, then I don't know what to tell you.

I will grant you the point that the tutorials could be better, but I'm not sure I'd agree that they necessarily should be.

Reply #7 from Stardock Forums Top

Quoting Sole, reply 6
More than half of what I know about GC2 I learned simply from playing the game.  A large portion of the rest of that comes from the forums and the wikia.  And I enjoyed it.  Playing and learning wasn't boring.  Reading the forums wasn't boring.  Looking through the wikia to find something relevant to my situation wasn't boring.  Hell, reading the manual six months after I started playing the game wasn't boring.
End of Sole's quote

Thanks for the reply, Sole Soul. I dare say if you were a paragon of humanity and embodied the sentiments of every person who has ever played this game or who will ever play it, I would concede that I have been wrong. Fortunately you are not a paragon, and I feel comfortable in disagreeing with you. Learning how to play this game would be easier and more interesting with a well-done tutorial scenario.

You say that much of what you have learned about the game comes from forums and the wikia. That can be construed as a condemnation. What you need to learn and play a game should come with the original package that you buy. You should not have to resort to an outside source for learning "a large portion."

 

Quoting Sole, reply 6
If you need a game to hold your hand, GC2 may not be for you.
End of Sole's quote

When I referred to a "tutorial-walkthrough scenario, perhaps playable as a mod, but definitely playable, leading the player by the hand through all facets of the scenario," I was not speaking literally of physical contact. I was referring to a playable tutorial that would make the learning process interesting and that would be informative about the game's many details.

But maybe, by suggesting that this game may not be for me, you are trying to provide me with incentive not to play it. Okay, I think it's reasonable to keep an open mind when someone suggests something. I'll follow your lead. I hereby quit. After finishing this post, I will uninstall Galactic Civilizations II and its two expansions packs, and I will deposit my Gold Edition in the trash barrel down the hall from me. This game and this message board is all yours. You win! Merry Christmas!

Reply #8 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

I don't see how you consider a large portion of less than half to be "much" (I would not place it at over 30%, probably not over 20%, to be honest), but in any case the vast majority of these instances have to do with things that the player doesn't actually need to know (for instance that the rush buy formula is build cost ^ 1.1, truncated and then multiplied by 6, which I actually discovered myself when looking into something separate on the forums before finding it on the wiki as well, so that could go either way) to things that the game does not actually show anywhere, like for instance the hidden additional research bonus given to the player on difficulties higher than tough, or the hidden economic bonus given to the player on difficulties lower than normal.

Another thing that comes to mind is starbase arrays-most commonly military-of 16 or 24 bases.  The forums has a wealth of information on how to build and use these, but the game itself doesn't actually require that you do anything like it (in most though not all non-score mongering purposes it's not even going to help), and to be honest, it seems to be something that slipped through the cracks.

Admittedly, using me as an example is a bad idea as far as learning the game is concerned because of how much I desire to know and learn about this game, but by the same token, the percentage and in fact absolute knowledge pertaining to the game that I have gleaned from the forums and the wikia is an overestimation with regards to your average player because of how much I want to know.

But clearly there's no convincing you of anything, since text bores you, and you managed to miss the part where I actually agreed with you on your characterization of the tutorials.

Reply #9 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

Quoting Solipso, reply 7

But maybe, by suggesting that this game may not be for me, you are trying to provide me with incentive not to play it. Okay, I think it's reasonable to keep an open mind when someone suggests something. I'll follow your lead. I hereby quit. After finishing this post, I will uninstall Galactic Civilizations II and its two expansions packs, and I will deposit my Gold Edition in the trash barrel down the hall from me. This game and this message board is all yours. You win! Merry Christmas!
End of Solipso's quote

 

well, tutorial is something that teaches you something, just like sandbox game. i mean, if you treat sandbox game like tutorial, just without holding your hand all the time, you should be fine. another thing that comes to my mind are campaigns, i played only beginning of dl campaign myself but afair they are very tutorialish, beginning with small maps and simple goals and comtinuing like that for some time:)

 

but this is 4x game, it is so complex that you will never learn to play it through tutorials. what's been said before holds true - to be good at galciv and anjoy it fully you just need to make your share of mistakes and spend some time just playing. it's not written on the box, but i am afraid it is an requirement. if you can't accept this - then, i'm afraid, this kind of games might just not be for you. maybe try something simplier and more action-oriented, like sins of the solar empire?

Reply #10 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

Quoting whismerhill, reply 1
I can see what you mean, though I didn't have any problem
End of whismerhill's quote

 

I can not see what you mean, at least not until i have highlithed it.

 

Btw, i have started the game and my first thought was the same. It was quite complicated, i had myself in debt too far, i did not win anything. But i said to myself "There is no game that can be too complicated to beat. Damn, youve read the good reviews, you got it now and now you will try until you get the point why its that good." Just dont give up the first time you dont get it. It will come and when you cross the point where it is a bit frustrating it will be just addictive. The longer you play the more you will have fun with it because you will get deeper and deeper into the way the game works.

Reply #11 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

Game manuals are boring.
End of quote

This is a TBS game. Intricate details are part of the experience. If you find manuals that explain the game's rules in intricate detail boring, maybe TBS games aren't for you.

Now granted, reading the GC2 manual is folly; it is horribly out of date and may never be brought up to date.

What GC2 needs isn't an in-depth tutorial; it needs a tutorial that explains how the game is meant to be played. How to manage an economy and so forth. A game like Civilization, particularly CivIV, has good enough feedback and reasonable locality that you can figure out what's going on relatively easy. Everything is very interconnected in GC2, so it's important for players to get into the headspace of the game.

Reply #12 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

Thanks for the reply, Sole Soul. I dare say if you were a paragon of humanity and embodied the sentiments of every person who has ever played this game or who will ever play it, I would concede that I have been wrong. Fortunately you are not a paragon, and I feel comfortable in disagreeing with you. Learning how to play this game would be easier and more interesting with a well-done tutorial scenario.
End of quote

Solipso, you sound like an intellegent person and I guess I have a hard time understanding why it is so important for you to have such an easy "in" for GalCiv2.  You don't sound like the type who so badly needs to be spoonfed. 

I will agree, however, that the learning curve for the game is quite steep, especially for 4X noobs.  GalCiv2 is my first real 4x experience and I started playing on three separate occasions and tried the demo and still never quite "got" it.  But I had a gut feeling that once I committed to learning the game it would be a favorite and I was right; I am soooo hooked now!  But after maybe 20 hours of gameplay I'm still needing to search the wikia and forums and re-read the manual every now and then, and I also discover new things almost every time I play.  It's fun for me to talk to other like-minded individuals on the forums and the ones here are really great at offering help, even though they must be answering the same questions over and over again. 

I think perhaps zarith had it right when he said:

if you can't accept this - then, i'm afraid, this kind of games might just not be for you.
End of quote
 

Reply #13 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

Recommendation: Don't play nethack - {G}.

Reply #14 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

I agree the learning curve of the game is quite steep, even more so if you didn't jump in at the original GalCivII: Dread Lords game. The expansions added a lot of new tweaks, options and gameplay elements to the game.

There have been several attempts from gamers to build something to help new players get started with their game but as far as I know none of the projects got finished. The game just changes too quickly (with many changes actually requested by the players themselves and Stardock just being customer-oriented so we can't complain too much).

 

Another difficulty for some new players is that the manual, the in-game descriptions and the actual in-game effect of for example improvements are three completely unrelated issues. A good example is the Mind Control Centre. The description said it would make planets succumb to your influence much faster but when you build it, you'll find it is in fact harder to convert them. A good soul skimmed through the files and shared with us that it really provided a significant economy bonus. Another example are production bonuses. Sure, you can boost your production through racial picks (abilities), bonus tiles and starbases but they cost you extra too (I learned that one the hard way) and what's more, they don't always cost the same; sometimes you pay just half price apparently.

 

The game is, to an extent, a black box. The way I learned to cope with it is to play it on easier settings and fiddle around a bit. Once you get a grasp on the game, you can create more challenging settings. I'm afraid this is, for now, the only way to master the game within the game itself and if this is not up your alley (which is your good right),  you'll be visiting these forums more often - but we're generally a nice bunch and we really grow on you.  ;)

Just give it a chance.

 

 

Reply #15 from Stardock Forums Top

Quoting SleekDD, reply 14
A good example is the Mind Control Centre. The description said it would make planets succumb to your influence much faster but when you build it, you'll find it is in fact harder to convert them. A good soul skimmed through the files and shared with us that it really provided a significant economy bonus.  
End of SleekDD's quote
the Mind Control Center is fixed in TA

https://forums.stardock.com/329678

Reply #16 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

I strongly prefer a 'steep learning curve' in my 4/5X games, but I think the question of strong intro material is pretty much a different matter. And it's the only thing I'd come close to calling a major weakness of GC2. I don't want to see any flattened learning curves, but I think some better 'booster packs' for new folks would be a good thing.

After my first GC2 install, I tried the campaigns expecting to see some narration that helped me both learn the game back story and get started mastering the basic mechanics. I quickly figured out that there wasn't anything like that in the campaigns, so I jumped into sandbox games and started reading the forums here. But I'm pretty sure that some well-annotated scenarios would have helped me learn more stuff more quickly when I was getting started.

Reply #17 from Stardock Forums Top

I loved the way i was just thrown into things with this. When i started i decided 'ill just start a sandbox game, have fun, thrash the campaign then play more sandbox'. Its what i do in FPS games, and RTS games. Why shouldnt it work here? I started a game, just above normal difficulty (after all these games really dont have the right grip of how hard things are. the AI are never that hard to outwit and im quick enough if they do catch me).

I played for about half an hour.

I went to the main menu.

And started another game, with the difficulty right at the bottom.

That was how i learned the ame, started somewhere i could win (well my second game anyway) then used the really informative ToA interface to learn the game, and when i had a question (what do asteroids really do? how do i culture hug somebody?) i looked on the forums and the wiki and found an answer. Im happy i know how to play now, but as others said this game is Really Really deep. Talk to me tomorrow and ill have a whole different impression of the best way to win.

Reply #18 from Stardock Forums Top

Quoting gaussflayer, reply 17
I started a game, just above normal difficulty (after all these games really dont have the right grip of how hard things are. the AI are never that hard to outwit and im quick enough if they do catch me).
I played for about half an hour.
I went to the main menu.
And started another game, with the difficulty right at the bottom.
End of gaussflayer's quote
hahaha, funny I think this happened to me too :grin:

Reply #19 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

I'm reading this from Gamefaqs right now and it's proving to be very helpful. It could very well be the only resource a noob could ever need.  Kudos to the author:

http://www.gamefaqs.com/computer/doswin/file/925349/46577

There's one more strategy guide posted there that looks promising, though I have not read it yet:

http://www.gamefaqs.com/computer/doswin/file/925349/41935

The tip about starting with Dread Lords and working your way up to the expansions was also very sage advice.  Not only am I near to totally grasping Dread Lords, but I can't wait to try Dark Avatar now and once I've mastered that, Twilight of the Arnor.  Good times!