[Gameplay] Recipes are not Complicated

from Stardock Forums

At least not inherently. They're somewhat complicated in DOTA, if you are unable to read (it happens).

 The point of recipes is to allow a player to carry over items he gets early game into items late-game without needing to sell the old and buy new, which puts the player at a disadvantage vs someone else who's just been saving for a big late game item unless items sold sell at exactly the same price at which they are bought. If while playing a Demigod game you've ever though "Hmm, I can buy this 2.4K ring now, but I can keep playing a bit longer without items and get the better-in-every-way 5.8K ring later" then it proves the itemization as it is now is counterintuitive and wrong, as it rewards NOT playing the item game.

 So recipes do have a use, but most people don't want them in game because they think of the way DOTA does it and are afraid it'l be complicated. But it doesn't have to be.

 Here's some ways recipes can work very simply and still fill their role or making early items translate into late game items:

 Combines. Let's say early game you buy some boots of +15% move speed, and then a bit later some boots of +500 armor. You can then buy a "combination" which would cost a token amount of gold and merge your two boot items into a single boot item with the stats of both.

 This would work with any two boots. So obviously, all boots bought straight from the shop would have 1 or 2 stats and a similar starting cost, then combined ones 3~4. It would also allow players to tailor their items to themselves somewhat. If someone wants to play Regulus with lots of mines, they'l pick a lot of regen and some damage stats. If someone wants to be a harrasing Regulus, they'l combine movement speed and attack speed.

The only rule governing these recipes would be 2 base items from the same shop = 1 combined item. Anyone can understand this, and you don't need to remember "hundreds of complicated recipes".

Another way would be upgrades. You'd have "sets" of each items. An armor with just armor, one with life and regen, one with thorns and life.

You'd have the first ranks, Decent Armor of Armor, Decent Armor of Life, Decent Armor of Thorns. Then you'd upgrade them as the game goes on, maybe one or two times to Good Armor of... and then Great Armor of... Simply increasing the amount of each stats the items start off with.

 An idea can be good but the implementation wrong. The idea of recipes is great, the implimentation, at least in DotA (according the the people here) needs help. So let's give it some help.

demigod
5,960 views 6 replies
Reply #1 from Demigod Forums Top

http://forums.demigodthegame.com/323546

This suggestion takes your idea of upgrades and gets it nearly perfect. It's a really good idea to do upgrades, and he's poured in tons of work to make it this good. It beats combines because it's considerably easier to balance and allows a much less befuddlingly complex choice. The other problem of combines is when do they stop? If they're limited to a certain number of basic items, then the expensive items are still significantly better. If it's limited by gold, there's way too much metagame min-maxing possible, which would make for just as much studying as traditional recipies. It beats upgrades because, well, um, your idea there is right, and it's just a more sophisticated implementation.

When we argue against recipies, we're arguing against the DotA implementation of it as a substitute for a proper implementation of upgrades.

Reply #2 from Demigod Forums Top

Yeah, what xthetenth said ;)

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Reply #3 from Stardock Forums Top

I was thinking more about this, and there is an even simpler way to implement an itemization game: Have only a few items for each slots that would combine various stats so as to please every playstyle. Make each cost the same amount (or close enough) and control gold flow and item slot accesibility with levels. This way players would get their first item by level 5, their second by level 10, their third by level 15, etc etc... (just an example).

The point is to have fewer, better items at a higher prices with controled acess instead of many items that are combined or upgraded. Since everyone can only have so many items at one time, it also keeps a game evened out if someone has a bad start by preventing someone with a ton of gold to deck himself out really early.

This also ends up with a more controlable item game, less room for overpowered combos.

Reply #4 from Stardock Forums Top

Actually his upgrade system is much closer to my combine system than it is to my upgrade system, since his way is to combine many stats into one item (which is what my combine system does) instead of simply increasing the base stats on early items (which is what my upgrade system does).

And his system allows for just as much if not more min/maxing than mine do.

Reply #5 from Demigod Forums Top

What i did is more the opposite of recipes.

Reply #6 from Demigod Forums Top

Y, because recipes ARE complicated. Its the most common reason for new players to quit dota after a few tries. I talked with many friends / peeps i knew/know on B.net, and they all said the same about it.

I never had problems with it, but .. dunno.. im a flexible person, i can handle alot of "not so good design choices" :)

I still want inno's upgrade system. It's like the recepies.. just easier^^

 

So long, Aspartem :snowman: