No Counter-Espionage for Korath...Really?

Drengin miss it too.

Except when the society's labor force is completly slave-driven.  It could be safe to say that the Korath/Dregin are outnumbered population-wise on their planets by their slaves.

Except exterminating the other races who's spies maybe placed there.  Both the Dregin and Korath are ment to be an agressive race.  The Korath especially, due to their spore ships, they also have no defense once the orbital fleet is gone.  Those two races were not meant to be played as a 'turtling' race.  Kill everyone else and there will be no spies.

In other words, "win the game".  Brilliant.  Since theres no way to know who is targeting you, and as far as I can tell, *everyone* else is doing so, you are essentially saying "the poor gameplay experience will stop once you just play through the game anyways and it ends anyway".

Its no skin off my nose...there are other races to play in an otherwise great game, and Im certainly not trying to hassle Stardock too much...Im very appreciative of their continiued efforts.  I always play for military victory regardless of race, and while I dont enjoy the DA espionage , I could always live with it as long as you could tech up to turn it off. (being forced to tech up the same way every game and commit a tile on each world to a specific labor intensive building in order not to hate the game is by no means optimal, but at least it was an option). 

I also play medium or larger maps, so "exterminate the other races" is not a quick proposition...its what the entire game is about, sometimes over the course of days, and the situation I described above happened in the first third of the game.  But it would be nice to actually be able to play with the races designed specifically for conquest, which I wont do if those races are forced to suffer under the DA espionage system, or until DA espionage is hopefully overhauled in 2.0

I don't think i have ever built a CE center.Even for the morale boost. I wouldn't have even noticed it gone. At most I've had one or two AI spies that i couldnt get rid of imediately. I understand that its possible to have a few other races attack you at the same time; but even then, how many spies are we talking about? I would go so far as to call it a game ender or that the race can't be played.

For those races you'd have to change up your strategy and have a larger pool of spies. I know, they cost a lot. BUt thats just how those races are. Just like you had to dramatically change your style to succeed  as the Yor. Now if they couldn't build spies at all, that would be a broken race.

Besides there is apparently going to be a major change to sping in 2.0, i think.

Well, its the old DA espionage-hate argument, which I dont really want to dredge up again here...its been well documented on the boards for the last year and a half, is a common complaint, and Im sure the devs are aware of it by now. Sometimes its an issue, sometimes it isnt.

It just has to do with how large a map you're playing against,  how many opponents, and how early you manage to pull ahead in the game.  I think it probably works ok for smaller, faster games, but it doesnt scale well.  On medium and larger maps you simply can't keep up once you hit the top 2 in Civs, and everyone is carpet bombing you with spies, you have too many worlds protect, and spies only get more and more expensive with the larger economy, so if you bankrupt yourself, you *might* be able to manage a game of "whack a mole", barely keeping up, but nothing more.  Meanwhile your world's best tiles are perma gimped from constant spy attack, and the two or three turns behind where you are when you can remove them. The map is large enough and the opposing civs have enough worlds, they cant be quickly dispatched without a lengthy coordinated effort.

And to add insult to injury, this is all largely money that you're forced to waste, because spies have such little real value in the game other than as a fun tax/moeny sink.  Oh, not that using them doesnt have benefitrs that are generally positive...but theres nothing even remotely as beneficial as using that money for other purposes, like building another fleet, rush buying important buildings, or being able to run your tech slider higher, etc.  This is on top of the fact that the economy is generally trickier to manage in TA (which is a good thing).

Sometimes you arent targeted heavily because you dont pull ahead until later in the game, when you're basically sweeping the map, and half the civs are already dead, so its not a problem.  But it can happen early in the game if youre in a situation where you're forced to strike out early militarily or with influence and population numbers..or even playing a race thats *designed* to do so.  Even building a few gimpy defenders to deter from invasion can do it.

Without CE, the only way to protect against that kind of situation is to metagame, and basically puposefully try to to limit your civ's influence and rating, against the nature of the game, all in order to avoid being targeted.

For reference, I play medium or larger maps, on Crippling or Maso difficulty depending on the build.  This is my sweet spot, as I find the harder difficulties than that challenging, but they stop being fun, as its more about using exploits and metagaiming to survive the impossible AI tech bonus... so I dont really think Im playing on "too easy" a difficulty. I'm not a master player, but I am an experienced one, and know how to build my civ to max economy and population growth, so Im actually pulling ahead much earlier than I used to in games, and am being targeted earlier.  IN TA, regardless of race, by midgame Im usually making from 300 bc to 1000 bc per turn...every cent of which I could pump into spies and still not be able to pull ahead or keep up if its 8 against 1 espionage.

So its not so much that that the races are technically unplayable, as the DA espionage system doesnt scale well,  is too punitive for too little benefit,  can be horribly un-fun...and CE is the only way to shut it down and avoid that kind of situation.  As long as espionage is in this state, untiol 2.0 which will hopefully fix it, the ability to counter it really needs to be availiable for every race.

I'm also hoping to see some radical changes in this area for 2.0--we need clear distinctions between counterespionage, espionage, and sabotage.

I've read stuff from other players who seem able to create the sort of context Bingjack describes, but something about my play style has kept me more or less immune. I also favor the largest maps, but I think I'm what lots of folks would call a "turtle" player. By the time I start having a major military edge on the graph, I've usually made sure that the other civs have been ruining themselves with extensive wars. I'm pretty sure the computer will use up its spy units like any other asset during a war, and they are even easier to burn than ships because they're in a vulunerable spot the instant you place them in the field.

Another good thing to know is that you don't need to cancel every spy that comes at you.

If they block recruiting center or stock exhance, for example, just ignore them, since cost of spy grossly outweights any possible benefits of freeing the tile.

Eventually, spy cost will rise so much that other AI won't be able to muster many of them quickly to do futher damage.

I would also like to see a researchable espionage tech tree, that increases or provides options for espionage efficacy, like every other aspect in the game.  The Krynn would of course start further along and with inherent bonuses and superior techs availiable.  But every race should be able to tech up for defenses against it, reduced costs, or improved infiltration abilities.

My biggest problem with DA espionage is that it doesnt function as anything other than a money sink with little real payoff, that you can't opt out of short of C-E.  Even after investing in C-E centers on all my worlds I rarely invest more than a token amount in espionage for offensive purposes.  While Im sure people can point out that sometimes in x situation you can do Y  with spies, its never more valuable than using the same amount of money elsewhere, rush buying, upgrading, and teching up, paying for invasion techniques, and just generally running your economy far into the black.  An extra superior large warship and a couple extra troop transports on someones doorstep is worth a handful of spies.

And once again, its an issue of scaling.  On small maps where your enemy has 2-3 worlds sabotage can have an impact...on larger maps where civs have many more redundant worlds, sabotaging a few tiles on a single civ is rarely effective to any degree, where as 8 enemy civs targeting you with spies is annoying, expensive, and can potentially leech a technological advantage you might have.

But as I said before, Im really looking forward to 2.0, and appreciate the ongoing work into the game and community attention the devs give, for what has been for the most part, one of the best game investments Ive ever made.

Odd you mention a stock exchange as they are my second target when I use spies offensively.  A race's ability to create spies is based off of their economy.  The spy slider denotes a % of your income devoted to training spies.  Each spy has a cost associated to it.  By gimping another race's economy, you gimp their ability to fight back your spies.

Also to note on the comment of leaving the stock exchange alone, a military crawls on it's pocket book.  If you gimp a race's economy enough so that their income no longer can support the running costs and maintenance of their ships and they hit a perpetual -500bc, you just haulted all their military production...time for a monkey-stomping war.

I know it's not economical to do heavy spy wars as I do, but I enjoy the game more because of it.  I've clamped off the #1 race's pocket book to hault their military production, then watched as their empire crumbled once their current navy was destroyed w/ no ships replacing them.

Again. Scale.  On a small map where a civ has 2 or 3 worlds at most, you could maybe pull this off.  On larger maps where civs have many more redundant worlds and high populations, not to mention cheating with AI production, econ , and tech bonuses on higher difficulties, you could shut down an economic capital, and two econ buildings, and still not have a really meaningful impact.   The amount of worlds and impact of tiles changes, but the amount of spies you can produce remains relatively unchanged, because its an increasingly costly percentage.

And even if you could manage it, that money is so much more effectively spent elsewhere on infrastructure, ships, techs, and Galactic achievements that have a global benefit against all other civs, not just one.

This point of view also ignores the admittedly fuzzy "cost" of letting an enemy gain intel levels against you. I have no idea how serious the matter is in terms of hard game mechanics, but my role-playing side can't stand letting barbarians build spy webs that might eventually steal our techs.

Agree.  My roleplaying instincts will simply not allow my worlds to crawl with red hats on sheer principle, the tech stealing issue completely aside.  Its *annoying*, like any vermin infestation.

I too play exclusively on large and medium maps, with the emphasis on large. I use around 5 or 6 AI opponents and play on Maso and some Obscene.

I think my play style is much like GW's. I build up techs and infrastructure and pull ahead once wars start. So I guess I don't get targeted. I also don't see any og the AI planets with many spies so for some reason, in my games, no one has spies. Maybe becauseI use them offensicvely early and the AI's are using up theirs to get rid of mine. Since I know I'll have the better economy, I will keep maing spies so my opponents will spend money they can't afford to. BTW what would happen if you bulldozed a structure that a spy was on? Will the AI lose that spy? A brand new stock exchange is only 1158 bc, probably less than a new spy.

I understand what your concern is. But as I said, its just those 2 races that have the problem. Just as with many many aspects of TA, with the race-specific stuff you have to play each race somewhat differently.

As a side note. I find it so intesting how differently this game plays for different people; sometimes you think you're playing an entierly different game. This gowes with Bingjack's experience as well as those that seem to always trigger the same mega events that others never get. I say the one race always stinks and someone else will say they fear that race. If I could bring myself to change my style maybe I'd see some different behavior. (I always say I'm going to be #1 in military at the start but i always fal back on building up my planets first).

I'm also in the Medium/Large crowd here, so I'm use to the AI having a dozen worlds or more and I still do this.  I also understand I'm pouring FAR more money into spies than would be better off spent on ships/improvements/etc, but I find the "Cold War" experience intriging.

As for spies and how fast they come in.  As soon as my economy settles, I start putting money into spies, setting the bar for a 1 week wait time and adjusting as I go until I hit the full 25% of my income is going to spies.  I build up a massive army of spies while the game is being played, so when it is time, I can literally shut down an empire.  I have seen triple digits in my spy pool.

Yes, I belong in a straight jacket and a padded room. 

Maybe its possible my economy just isnt very good.  Like I said, depending on race, by midgame, in TA,  Im usually making between 300 and 1000 Bc a turn.   By end game this is usually 1000-1500 a turn.  Without Mind Control Center econo cheese, I considered this a productive and successful economy.

But I have never seen anything like what Loupdinour  reports with triple digits in the spy pool, and a sustained one week creation time, nor have I seen anything that makes me think this would even be possible for me (Krynn notwithstanding) without having no money left over for meaningful spending, or even running at a defecit.  The cost for producing spies at that rate is always just prohibitively expensive, and it only goes up.  And from a pure cost /benefit ratio theres no good reason to waste that kind of money on spies.

As far as "turtling", I turtle just as anyone else with any race in the game...in that I dont attack until Im prepared for it and have  a distinct advantage, for however long that takes.  Though I do try to take out an easy mark minor race or a weak neighbor as early as possible to give me the breathing room to produce my war  machine.

Im an agressive colony rusher though, and try for the best "footprint" I can with any map, and coupled with my preference for econ, morale, pop growth bonuses, industrial political party, and the proliferation of easy to come by passive bonus techs in TA,  I can end up with a pretty influential map blob much earlier than I was in DA.  Crank out  a couple early game deterent ships to discourage invasion, and you can skyrocket to a prime espionage target pretty early on.  If youre playing as a race thats designed to attack early like the Korath, it only exacerbates the issue.

Still, if there is a choice of wasting 3000BC worth spy to free up stock exchange that gives 30BC per turn, then better to save that money for something else. Removing that spy just doesn't pay off.

Blocking economy buildings makes sense in early game or on smaller maps, where there is actually possibility of reducing enemy economy good enough so their spy spending gets low.

But if AI blocks my economy builing in late game, I just leave him there. It's his wasted money.

I'm somewhat glad that I invested in training spies very early on in my last game (large/abundant all/tech trading off/Tough/Krynn).

I was reluctant to do so only because in TotA the economy is so tight and the need to go slow as far as spending goes had me thinking about ignoring spy spending altogether, but I simply left the slider on 1% or 2% for the longest time and just forgot about it. When my economy started to take off, I had about 15-20 spies in reserve in late game (although to be honest, I think chosing the Krynn you get some strong espionage and morale traits to begin with).

I basically used them offensively late game and "spy bombed" my last opponent, crippling his economic structures, morale structures and farms. They could not support their infrastructure, as was said in the above posts, with next to no income they could not support their military or any new social projects or upgrades and maintenance costs of existing structures other than what the initial colony could support (kill the roots and the tree dies).

They had more powerful ships and weapons, but when I declared war on them and began taking out their ships with my modest fleets (which my steadily growing economy could support), their faultering economy (due in most part to the strategically placed spies) could not keep up.

Occasionally one of my spies would be nullified, but a few turns later I was replenishing the spy pool and with their economy in ruins, it was probably far more expensive for them to do so, but I am curious as to how fast they did this with next to nothing in their treasury... hmm, not too sure about that one... seems a little suspect if you ask me.

Anyway, all that "spy bombing" was just a way of softening them up for the ensuing invasion force.

I have to admit for the most part, that it was not all that much fun, it was a tactic for sure which I exploited but it felt kind of cheesey in a way but still I'm glad that I invested early on in spy production.

I was the bomber not the bombee in this instance, but I can see how it could become very frustrating being ganged up on by everybody else's spies, especially when you don't know where they originated from and who you should retaliate against.

Maybe read this post by ghostwes "Espionage bug in TotA" .

Although it is not specific to your situation, it may have some relevance. I'm not sure if it ever got resolved in the 1.96 update or whether it's one of the changes/fixes to espionage that might be implimented in the upcoming and highly anticipated v2.0 release.

All in all, I prefer the former intelligence gathering system in DL but I can see some strategic benefit using the newer system in the DA & TotA expansions, but I would like to see more choices, ie. intel gathering, sabotage, etc. but I whole heartily agree, some balancing issues need to be addressed.

That doesn't last forever, nearer to the end it turns into about 4-5 week training times.  Lots of ephasis on a strong economy makes for a great amount of spy training speed.

Sadly, the Iconians have a +100 Espionage vs the Krynn's +50.  I put my espionage project on hold until 2.0 comes out.  I had planned on mapping the spy cost formula as well as the exact effect +espionage gives.  The only thing I have accomplished in the way of clarity is the amount of spy-weeks that are required to reach each level of intelligence.  Knowing these numbers you can more effectively place spies to minimize response time the AI has.

It's amazing isn't it? IMO this is one of GC2's truly great triumphs. There was a few weeks there where the Yor were copping flak all over the forums, yet I found them to be a force to be reckoned with.

Wouldn't it be awesome? Unlikely I guess, but i'd happily pay money for that...just imagine a fully realized cold war victory condition within GC2...with Espionage/Tech Trade/Relations counterpointing. These have always been the warheads of the "Good" guys in my book. What do you reckon Stardock? What ever happened to the updates for a minimal fee idea?

I just finished a Drengin game, and the spies were pretty alarming. I'd say I probably averaged two per planet over the course of the game, which would include having half my tiles covered at one point. Fortunately that was close to the start, so they were quick and cheap to eliminate. Practically speaking, the Red Peril had two major impacts beyond the economic damage.

First, some jerk kept covering my recruiting centers. It was a small map, and the Jagged Knife has taken my second starting planet right after the Torians invited me to come kick their insect asses. So, I only had one planet with a population over 5b and a couple of smoldering ruins of Torian colonies. To make matters worse, the Torians and Terrans started in the same sector so my slave pits were now next door to the Terrans and Krynn. The short version is I really needed those recruiting centers to quickly populate my planets. My homeworld needed to provide a steady stream of conquistadors, and my new colonies needed some influence pronto.

Second, I wasn't the sharpest tool in the galactic shed, so tech stealing could have been a disaster. In fact, I was one of the worst races technology wise: logistics 7, tiny hulls, no planet improvements. The two things I had going for me were a high level beam weapons and a mammoth soldiering skill. Three ship fleets of Star Fury M7s along with the super dominator corvettes were enough to clear the skies, and I could win invasions outnumbered twenty to one or more. But if someone had stolen a decent beam weapon or soldering tech I'd have been in serious trouble. The larger hulls and deflectors other races had access too would've become a serious threat with state of the art weapons. And my small population was already limiting the amount of troops I could deploy, so theft of a soldiering tech would've been bad enough even if they didn't already have a technology lead.

I've never built a Counter-Espionage and would consider it a waste of a tile - but that's just me. I always build a strong economy and putting a few percent towards generating agents isn't a big deal, and it's exceptionally rare that nullifying enemy agents is a problem. Every once in a great while one of them will go nuts with spies or the spy mega event will hit everyone and I'll have to jack up espionage spending for a while to counter.

I'm not that crazy about the current espionage model either but it's far easier to counter it with your own spies than waste valuable...

(I hate these forums, I get this far thru typing a reply and the page finally finishes loading, reformats my reply, scrolls away from the reply, etc - it's so annoying.  The 403's, the pages not loading at all in FF3.  <sigh>)

...tiles on such a limited function structure.

I also agree that the race in question is meant to be aggressive and you should be setting up to conquer asap - espionage should be a low priority period.  If you want to turtle, play the altarians with +econ and even more +research - they're ridiculous.