Notes from a 1 million point game

Livonya

Join Date 08/2006

Notes from a 1 million point game

I have been trying to break 1 million for some time.

Last year I got discouraged when I got a cheat flag for a 800,000+ point game, and then while doing some tests I accidentally posted a 0 point loss to the Metaverse. I could live with the cheat flag, but the 0 point game loss just annoyed me. So I stopped playing Metaverse games.

In May I decided to once again go for that 1 million point game. So I started again, but first I wiped my old scores.

With my next attempt I accidentally started an Obscene game, which certainly didn't help. I didn't realize this until I posted the game. Duh.

With my second next attempt I made sure it was Suicidal, but I accidentally left the Tech Victory option open. Duh, again.

That lead to some interesting findings.

These are the stats from my first next attempt. You will note that these stats/scores are from December 22nd of the year 2233. I actually post the games in December 22nd of the year 2234 but the gain in that final year is very, very tiny and so I don't document it.

Torian game - final score 829,500

Society - 130,319
Tech - 184,002
Econ - 254, 387
Military - 341,520

Number of planets - 730
Number of ships - 16,848
Population - 11.346 T
Military Ranking - 4,408,233
Final Approval - 58%
Number of Military bases - 16
Final Tech Spending - 65,884
Final Bonus Spending - 227,730
Economics - 394%
Morale - 336%
Trade Income - 1,077
Tourism Income - 22,494 (1 bonus tourism event)
Taxes - 621,030

These are the stats from my second next attempt. You will note that these stats/scores are from December 22nd of the year 2233. I actually post the games in December 22nd of the year 2234 but the gain in that final year is very, very tiny and so I don't document it.

Thalan game - final score 1,031,100

Society - 148,814
Tech - 20,331
Econ - 325,907
Military - 636,290

Number of planets - 739
Number of ships - 50,653
Population - 14.779
Military Ranking - 10,380,308
Final Approval - 37%
Number of Military bases - 20
Final Tech Spending - 0
Final Bonus Spending - 11,435
Economics - 368%
Morale - 422%
Trade Income - 591
Tourism Income - 73,925 (2 bonus tourism events)
Taxes - 871,326

Things of interest:

1) There is some sort of hard cap with Beyond Mortality (tech victory). With my million point game I could end it with either a Military Conquest or with Beyond Mortality. With the Military Conquest I would get 1,000,000+ points. With the Beyond Mortality the score was about 350,000. The interesting thing was I could get the same 350,000 Beyond Mortality victory score in September of 2228. So it capped and never went up again.

2) The Society Score can't really get too high. With the Torian game I had Super Breeder so I reached the max pop level much, much, much faster. With the Thalan game I built 2 to 5 Fertility Clinics on each and every planet, and I took The 8 point Planet Quality (20% bonus) with my bonus points. So while the Torian's could get to a higher population much faster, the Thalan empire got a higher score due to better planets. I doubt if this score could ever top 175,000 to 200,000 as there is simply no way to get much more than 15 trillion life forms. I had 739 planets and every single planet had 20 to 21 billion life forms. There is almost nothing I could have done to increase that effectively.

3) The Econ score difference is largely due to the Planet Quality. The 20% Planet Quality bonus offers 1 to 5 extra Stock Markets on every single planet. That translates to 150,000 to 200,000 extra BC per turn once everything is built.

4) With my Thalan game I completely conquered the universe in August of 2228, and I finished every single Tech except for Beyond Mortality in September of 2228. This meant that I had to compltey turn off all tech spending. So my Tech score never grew past the 20,331 that it was at in 2228. Thus proving that it is possible to just ignore tech completely with these sorts of games.

5) Even though I got the higher score with the Thalan super ability, I actually think the Torian super ability is better. My economy tanked at one point with the Thalans. There were at least 2 or 3 turns where I had to reduce spending. This would never have happened with the Torians. So I prefer the Torian super ability, though they are both quite good.

Keys to a high score:

1) Spin Control Center. You need this ASAP and you need 7 of the largest most powerful ships in this center ASAP. When I completed this item my military might went to 3x the next largest empire. This is huge. It makes a massive difference with dealing with the other empires. Once you have the largest military then everyone pretty much does what you want. Peace deals can be extremely profitable once it becomes clear that your military is vastly superior.

2) Conquer the universe very, very, very fast. I completely vanquished all enemy empires in August of 2228. If I would have done this faster then I would have gotten a much higher score. Speed, speed, speed.

3) Economy. You need economy more than you need anything else. Econ resources are priceless. Research, and Influence resources are pretty much pointless. Econ and Morale are the ones you want first. Population growth!!! I built a LOT of Fertility Clinics. Even though the Society score is not massive, the population is the key to Economc growth.

Anyway, I just thought this would be interesting to post. Hopefully someone finds it interesting.

I am going to switch to a new race with every game, so I think my next game will be with the Drengin.

I suspect there will be someone breaking 1,200,000 sooner or later. Maybe even 1,500,000 with a very fast strategy and a more balanced tech/military plan.

I probably could have gotten another 100,000 out of this game if I had had more patience. The game will slow to a painful crawl with this many ships. So at some point my patience gave out and I was just trying to finish rather than push up my score even higher.

- Livonya

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Mumblefratz

Join Date 07/2006

+139

Curiouser and curiouser.

I understand that not everyone's native language is English. Generally that is obvious from context. In your case your usage of the language indicates that if it is a second language then at the least you have a very good command of it.

I simply and honestly have no clue what it is you're trying to convey. I can't tell whether you're angry and somehow feel insulted or you're joking around and pulling my leg.

As far as the different planet thing it perhaps does seem so.

I mean sentances and phrases like:

"textual operas in tandem"
"Coherent or structured with intelligible paragraphs worth my precious readout free-time."

My point is that I am truly not understanding you. I have no insult or disrespect intended, but who talks like this?

I suppose no one else would want to touch this discussion with a ten foot pole but am I the only one that can't make sense of any of this?

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The rest of your post trails off into meaninglessness, at least for me.

Zyxpsilon, I think (note: my opinion) Mumble was saying that those last two paragraphs were related the X-Worlds mod that perhaps he hasn't used and thus he is unfamiliar to what you are talking about.

Just how I took it...

*edit*
Oh and Zyxpilon, that reply lost me...but that is soley due to me being a straight C student in English...I know more "Coal-Region Pennsylvanian" than anything else. Those words, while being the English language, went WAY over my head lol.

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Mumblefratz

Join Date 07/2006

+139

Partially true. While I have no idea what the X Worlds mods are what in essence I am saying is that Zyxpsilon has a manner of speaking that I find very difficult to understand.

I mean it's obvious to me that there is a lot of intelligence behind his posts it's just that I'm not getting the message that he's obviously trying to convey.

Perhaps it is a second language thing. Perhaps I'm just obtuse. But I would like to understand what he's saying because it most often seems there is both intelligence and humor behind the things he posts, it's just that I'm not getting it.

Again, I'm only trying to understand, any perceived insult is totally unintended.

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Thalan game - final score 1,031,100

Society - 148,814
Tech - 20,331
Econ - 325,907
Military - 636,290

Interesting...

Society - 141K
Tech - 204K
Econ - 382K
Military - 435K

taken at December 22nd 2234 in TA (equates to 2233 in DA as TA games start a year later). Very similar total when added together - and a very similar overall total aswell - 1,064,000.

The most interesting thing is that I only had a grand total of approx 6500 ships, and a military rating that peaked at 4.5million. Population was just over 9 trillion from 530-odd planets.

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Perhaps it is a second language thing. Perhaps I'm just obtuse. But I would like to understand what he's saying because it most often seems there is both intelligence and humor behind the things he posts, it's just that I'm not getting it.

All of that is sooooo true, btw. Just trying to do my best, even more people have somehow "complained" (CommanderGizmo once.. etc) about how i construct my sentences or which words i select to put a phrase together that should be perceived as it is meant.

Sarcastic, humoristic and insulting formulas are certainly hard to detect in anybody's communications... even more so, in the typed one. But that's a natural fact of human perception. Everyone has it in different degrees.

Being french born and from Quebec doesn't help either. And yet, life was kind enough to me to allow the rural wheat fielder that i was to take a daring step into the jungle and meet new horizons headon like a bull and a sheep together at once.(see, Loupdinour ya're not the only one!)
Semantics and grammatical rules differ in many ways, bilingual Canada included.

Finally, i did felt a tiny bit slightly insulted (this use of italics to stress on some words comes from the BBS days habits i possibly took for granted and developped progressively)... but no offense taken, not a serious issue at all.

Play some MODS, mumblefratz. These things explode the usual mechanics to weird situations; i find chaos more satisfying than static predictable elements with a rigid structure - in games, that is.
And TotA multiplied this reasoning 12 times over while mods scramble this "impression" even further.

If smilies could be straight off sarcastic and obvious, we'd use them at times.

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Z, if ya want a laugh...check out this site and understand where I'm coming from. We're pretty much yankees that got the speakin of a west virginan.
http://www.coalregion.com/ and check out the Coal Speak link. Luckily, FF's spellchecker keeps me in check.

But I think we need to get this thread back on track...

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Mumblefratz

Join Date 07/2006

+139

Society - 141K
Tech - 204K
Econ - 382K
Military - 435K

taken at December 22nd 2234 in TA (equates to 2233 in DA as TA games start a year later). Very similar total when added together - and a very similar overall total aswell - 1,064,000.

The most interesting thing is that I only had a grand total of approx 6500 ships, and a military rating that peaked at 4.5million. Population was just over 9 trillion from 530-odd planets.

Records are made to be broken, apparently some more quickly than others although I suppose Livonya still has the record for the highest DA game.

Nice game.

However, this only reinforces the fact that totals are misleading. True knowledge comes from the shape of the appropriate curves and even more importantly in how early in the game they start to ramp up.

The fact that the peak military rating was only 4.5 million may mask the impact of having something like a military rating of 1 million in year 1 for example. You wouldn't have perhaps had 10 SCC's in this game would you?

I think of most interest is the fact that this is the first time I've ever seen a noticeable contribution from Tech. I would assume that the ratio of econ score to tech score corresponded to the ratio of tech spending to total income which looks like more than 50% of your total income was spent on tech. Interesting. It must be a unique feature of ToA that allows this kind of research spending or is it simply an extension of an "all labs" strategy? Or most likely a combination of both.

Again, nice game

per usual.

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You wouldn't have perhaps had 10 SCC's in this game would you?

Actually, it was TA with the Yor tech tree - there is no extended diplomacy branch. No-one ever got beyond researching advanced diplomacy, so there were no SCC's anywhere in the galaxy. Military graph curve was consistent with what I am used to seeing.

It must be a unique feature of ToA that allows this kind of research spending or is it simply an extension of an "all labs" strategy?

All factories until social builds were completed, then I just over-built all factories with Discovery Spheres. Nothing TA-specific, I'm quite sure it could be reproduced in DL / DA.

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Mumblefratz

Join Date 07/2006

+139

Military graph curve was consistent with what I am used to seeing.

Still something atypical is going on with your military score. Certainly final totals can be misleading or at the very least give no indication of early game performance, but still they're the only guide to go by here. Anyway comparing the military scores and reported military rankings in these two games, Livonya received a bit over 50% of his 1M score from military based on a final military rating of 10M whereas you received close to 40% of your 1M score from military based on a final military rating of 4.5M, less than half of Livonya's.

To more accurately calculate these percentages these are based on military component divided by the sum of all four components of score instead of raw total score. This compensates for the scaling that occurs between the sum of the components and total score.

Clearly there is something more effective in your military score versus that of Livonya's. The only conclusion I can make from this is that either your military graph was far more front end weighted than Livonya's or there is some TA specific advantage to military scoring.

I would suspect the answer is that your graph was indeed more front end weighted than Livonya's, which doesn't contradict your statement that your military graph was consistent with what you're used to seeing, it just means you're used to seeing front end weighted graphs which is consistent with your scoring history.

All factories until social builds were completed, then I just over-built all factories with Discovery Spheres. Nothing TA-specific, I'm quite sure it could be reproduced in DL / DA

I think you mentioned a final resource mining bonus of 65%, so how many research mining resources are there in an immense galaxy? In DL/DA there's usually 6 @ 39% for a 234% total research bonus plus whatever you get from tech and wonders. Given that 65% is close to double the resouce mining bonus available in DL/DA I'd say there was a major TA specific benefit to the Tech component of score, even if an immense TA galaxy averages the same 6 resources of each type that are in a DL/DA gigantic galaxy.

Of course you can also consider that these same kind of increases in the potential bonus from military resource mining may have significantly contributed to your military score as well. In this case it's in how you could achieve 1/2 of Livonya's military rating with a bit more than 1/10th the total number of ships. Again IIRC I think you mentioned ships worth in the area of close to 4000 points each once bonuses are considered. Not sure whether this was with or without an array but regardless that's far higher per ship than can be achieved in DA/DL so again I'm seeing advantages to TA although the potential huge increases in resource mining bonuses seem to be at the root of all of these advantages.

Actually close to double is a bit of an exaggeration but then again, how many research, military and economic resources are in an immense galaxy?

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Ha, you beat me by 1,050 points!!! Good job!!!

The interesting thing is that I had a military ranking of more than 5 million in year 2229, so I had a very high military ranking very fast.

I suspect the balance is the reason for the higher score. Raising the military score from 435K to 636K took a LOT of work for me, and in the 636K game my military score was higher than in my 435K game for more than 5/8 of the game.

If I had not accidentally left Tech Victory clicked on, then I would have gone for a more balanced approach getting around 200K from Tech. It would have been easier and would have netted me a higher score.

In my next game I hope to see over 300K in Tech, Econ and Military... I am curious what that will be like.

Of course that will take me a month or so, maybe more.

- Livonya

PS: By the way, Magnumaniac, is there a limit in TA on the number of planets?

The fact that you had nearly 200 planets less than me and still got basically the exact same score is really interesting. In my opinion that means you had to do a LOT less work for the same score. Managing an additional 200 planets is a pain in the butt.

I am actually shocked that you could get the same score with 200 less planets.

That is stunning.

You are either a much, much better player than I, or there is a difference in the way the scores are managed with the 2 expansions... or both are true.

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PS: By the way, Magnumaniac, is there a limit in TA on the number of planets?

540-550 does appear to be the top limit. The PQ 1's and 2's are gone, which accounts for a lot, if not all of the difference.

You are either a much, much better player than I, or there is a difference in the way the scores are managed with the 2 expansions...

The latter, certainly. Not so much in the way the scores are calculated, but rather in the fact that there is, and always has been, a weighting towards larger galaxies. TA has the Immense galaxy size available, and as far as I can tell, that gives approx 10% higher scores than gigantic.

A lot of that is offset by the more stringent economy and expensive maintenance in TA, but there are also many things in TA that you can't do in DA etc etc.

What I'm really trying to say here, I think, is that it is impossible to compare scores between versions - there are just too many variables.

I'll probably have to go back to a DA game at some point, to try some of the things I've learned since last playing it - might get a better comparison if and when that happens.

P.S. - You weren't as shocked as I was when I saw the score. I was expecting it to be around 900K - gut feel when compared to previous games. I thought it said 106K to start with and was about to swear profusely

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Mumblefratz

Join Date 07/2006

+139

I am actually shocked that you could get the same score with 200 less planets.

That is stunning.

Then how will you feel when I get the same score with 300 less planets in DL?

What I'm really trying to say here, I think, is that it is impossible to compare scores between versions - there are just too many variables.

This point is so true. It's impossible to correlate the scores between versions, any comparison is anecdotal at best. DL, DA and TA records only have meaning within their own framework.

And besides all that, I'm sure everyone agrees with the point that Zyxpsilon made earlier which is that even large variations in score are not totally definitive of any kind of absolute ranking.

It's fun to have a record and break 1 million points and when I do it I'll be certain to make mention of it but no one is more aware of the transitory existence of a record than those that hold it at least for a little while.

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Mumblefratz

Join Date 07/2006

+139

Well I've wasted 3 months in my quest to reach 1M points in a DL game and no luck. Basically it just wasn't in the cards, at least with what I ended up with in terms of mining resources.

I started this game on 5/10/08 and after playing the game out three separate ways the best I could get was 924K. I still believe that 1M is possible in DL but it requires a certain amount of luck in the distribution of mining resources to achieve. At this point I don't feel like continuing to play DL waiting for the perfect storm of resources to occur in hopes of getting that 1M point game. So I'm finally giving up the ghost on DL and am ready to move on to DA.

But first a little bit of a post mortem. My final stats in this game are the following.

Total Score = 924,500

Society = 125,210
Research = 35,574
Economy = 499,481
Military = 937,633

Planets = 441
Population = 7.286T
Peak Income = 1.26M
Total Ships = 17,036
Military Ranking = 14.1M

Bonuses

Economics = 367% (5 resources + MCC)
Weapons = 276% (7 resources)
Defense = 340% (7 resources + Drath 50%)
Morale = 305% (5 resources)
Research = 275% (5 resources)
Influence = 308% (6 resources)

Note that I was shorted an economics, a morale and a research resource but had one “extra” military resource.

The three different game variations I tried (which extended the game by at least a month) essentially involved building more ships. In all three cases once the total number of ships were built a final upgrade was performed on the maximum number of ships that my PC could support. The greater the total number of ships, the fewer ships could be upgraded. The range of ships built varied from 17K, all of which were upgraded, to 34K, of which only 15K could be upgraded, with the third option falling pretty much in the middle of these two extremes.

The results were unequivocal. The best case for military score is to build the maximum number of ships that you’re able to upgrade and then upgrade them to the highest value ship possible considering your bonuses and miniaturization level. In all cases building more ships actually *lowered* my final score and the greater the number of ships, the lower the score. Admittedly the differences were not huge but given that it’s more work to build more ships, going past the point of the largest upgrade you can do is senseless. Certainly there is room to argue whether a complete dedication to military score at the expense of say research spending is worth it (although I do believe that at least in the case of DL, it is worth it), but there is no doubt in my mind that for maximal military score you want to limit yourself to the maximum number of ships that you can upgrade in one turn.

Note that in this case with my bonuses and miniaturization level (huge hull = 208), my highest value ship was a huge hull with a base attack of 25 (1 BHE) and a base defense of 490 (49 ZPA). With my bonuses this gave me (25*3.76)+(490*4.4)+1512=3762 total attack/defense points where 1512 is the bonus from an array of 24 military starbases. With a total of 16,999 of these ships this results in a total attack/defense value of almost 64M in order to achieve my military rating of 14.1M. The “extra” 37 ships were 425 attack/10 defense ships that with my bonuses totaled a bit over 100K which is on this scale is insignificant.

One thing of interest is to compare this game to a previous DL game where I achieved 957K.

In the 957K game I had the following resources.

7 Economics !
9 Military !!!
5 Morale
4 Research
4 Influence

Talk about a perfect storm of resources. If I had known then what I know now then I have no doubt I could have achieved a 1M point DL game with these resources. As an aside my final military ranking in that game was somewhat less at 13.8M mostly due to one less Hyperion Shrinker (easily achieved by gifting one to a minor at the appropriate point). Anyway hindsight is 20/20 and instead of waiting for a similar start in DL, I think it’s finally time for me to move onto DA.

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You guys all deserve a prize for patience and endurance

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You guys all deserve a prize for patience and endurance

Honestly, that is 90% of what it takes to achieve a massive score.

click after click after click after click after click... for days, weeks, months on end.

When people in the real world ask what I have been up to I don't mention hours of silly clicking with GCII. I would be embarrassed to tell most people how long I spent on this game.

- Livonya

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Voqar

Join Date 03/2003

+21

You guys all deserve a prize for patience and endurance

I'd suggest counseling, myself.

Seems like a really odd way to play the game to me, but if that's what one enjoys then it's all good.

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Mumblefratz

Join Date 07/2006

+139

but if that's what one enjoys then it's all good.

That's the point.

If you don't enjoy the way that you play then you probably won't continue to play the game for very long.

To me I the way that I play is merely enforcing my view of order over a chaotic universe. The AI pretty much do everything in their power to "mess up" the galaxy. They build their planets haphazardly, intermix their areas of influence, spam starbases scattered randomly and spew the weirdest collection of unsymmetrical ships about the galaxy. I inexorably take their planets rebuilding them to maximum economic performance each one identical to the next, wipe out their starbases replacing them with a centrally located array of 24 military stabases all in a perfect lineup, and, wipe out all their ships until I'm left with a single opponent on a single PQ3 with the re-education center to prevent cultural insurrection and another innocuous super project so they can't build a starport and re-infect the galaxy with their annoying ships. Once the galaxy has been completely rebuilt and nothing moves other than as I direct it then entropy has been defeated and order has been restored.

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Such a neat/control-freak, Mumble....very Luther-esque.

Joking aside though, I do pretty much the same things as you stated. I've almost completed my latest game, with should top out at just over 600k, on a huge all-abundant map. It will definitely be my best game until I upgrade my computer. It's gettting very slow with just 3000 ships or so.

In DA at least, the AI never seems to try to re-build a starport on the one last lonely planet. I use the re-education center for the same purpose as you said. I used to build a maxed-out influence base, but (eventually!) realized that was an inneficient way to go about it.

Sentient species taste better...

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Chaos = bad or evil?

~nudges his chakarum of entropy under the carpet and looks around whistling~

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Loup, it's no secret you're a minion of chaos.

Sentient species taste better...

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/sigh I misspelled chakram.

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Well, I did manage to increase my score by quite a lot. I thought I would make 1.5 million but I was a bit short of that goal.

These are the stats of the game as of December 22nd 2233. I posted the actual game on December 22nd 2224, but since I only got 24,500 points for that final year it was pretty much a waste of time.

Drengin game - final score 1,432,550 (1,457,050 was final posted score)

Society - 147,621
Tech - 221,328
Econ - 386,402
Military - 816,367

Number of planets - 720
Number of ships - 44,919
Population - 14.427 T
Military Ranking - 12,135,804
Final Approval - 37%
Number of Military bases - 24
Final Tech Spending - 44,973
Final Bonus Spending - 164,897
Economics - 554%
Morale - 327%
Trade Income - 3,514
Tourism Income - 71,435 (1 bonus tourism event)
Taxes - 1,191,750

I had the perfect storm of a game. It turned out I had 3 economic resources within about 50 clicks of my home planet. And there were a lot more economic resources in the game than I am used to seeing.

On top of that I rushed to destroy the enemy empires faster than I have ever managed to do it before. The key to a high score is definitely a VERY, VERY, VERY fast expansion and control of the galaxy.

I do think Tech was worth doing as the 221,328 I got from it did help my score. However, if I would have just skipped Tech spending I could have probably finished the game 1 week earlier (in real time). That last week of play was very boring and I do think skipping research and just going for the massive upgrade of ships strategy is a better use of real time. I have to try it next.

Speed is definitely the key.

The faster you do it the higher your score.

I had destroyed all but 1 enemy empire by 2228 (game started 2226).

I think 2 million points is possible. I made some mistakes in this game and I didn't go as fast as I could have gone.

There was a lot of waste in my research choices, and I underestimated when I could begin/win wars. A more streamlined and bold approach would have produced a higher score.

The Fertility Clinic is a crucial building. I didn't research it as soon as I should have and I didn't build as many as I should have. I built a ton of them, but not every planet had them, and I could have built a lot more of them.

Considering that I had control of 3 econ resources so early I should have went for Fertility Clinic sooner and built at least 3 to 5 on every planet. That would have gotten my economy booming much sooner and thus everything else would have happened sooner. Max out population as fast as possible so you can get to 79% tax rate as soon as possible.

Population is very important as it allows for early invasion and higher tax revenue.

I didn't go for farm upgrades fast enough either, I had far too many turns where I had planets at max population. A definite mistake.

I really need to sit down with the tech tree and come up with an optimal approach that will focus directly on the fastest route to economic victory.

- Livonya

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MottiKhan

Join Date 04/2007

+152

About all I can respond with is "WOW!" I wouldn't have thought 1.4 mil was doable.

Thanks for the concise breakdown too. It's easy to put the pieces together.

I'm trying lesser strategies that suit my own style of gameplay, but I tip my hat to you for yours.

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Quite astounding Livonya, congrats!

In the games I've been playing recently (huge all-abundant), I've had the ability to take out all the AIs before the end of year 1 (2227). My best game with those settings is 591k. If I can do things as quickly once I start playing gigantic all-abundant, I feel pretty good about possibly breaking the 1 million mark. Thanks for the deteailed break-down of your game too.

Sentient species taste better...

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Mumblefratz

Join Date 07/2006

+139

Nice. It looks like DA (or maybe TA) will be the only way to legitimately compete.

Definitely focusing on pop first is key. Pop drives everything else.

Not sure about the 2 million though. I'm not saying it's not possible but based on my experience with DL at some point you just hit a wall and that's pretty much all she wrote. For example doing the upgrade certainly enables you to do more with less and saves time but in the end is probably not a huge source of additional points.

But then again never say never, the biggest potential is to cut down conquering the galaxy from two years to one, which is probably close to do-able, if you could do that then 2M could be in sight.

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