Now I know the AI cheats

Almost forgot.

How does the AI get better technology then me if my technologiy is at 50% (20 from technologists and 30 from abilites) and I put 52% into research?

There are galactic resources that affect military. The difference in military stats could have been affected either by:
a. The Drengin could have built a starbase over a military resource.

or

b. The Drengin could have added a mining module to an existing starbase over a military resource.

Also, please remember that military stats can be affected both by the space debris found by surveyors as well as random events.

My personal guess...

Drengin extort and trade tech with other races, minor or otherwise, better than you. They also probably concentrate on military technology to research.

The battleaxe gaining stats could easily be a tech that was gotten, or a military starbase resource mined. Or even, the Drengin built a starbase on that sector of contention (unlikely, but it is possible).

Don't have time to dissect the reasons right now, but I can betcha if a dev had your savegame, they could easily point out exactly how the Drengin (who are certainly biased towards getting the best war stuff quickly) got the ships they did, as well as the techs.. and they would be perfectly legal. LOL

You would be surprised how effective the AI can get techs, war equipment, etc. That isn't to say there isn't a bug or something.. but not likely. Techs, starbases, wonders, trade goods.. many things can increase ship hit points, attack and defense. Also, if they plopped a starbase down on a war resource somewhere, this would have the same effect.

fleabitfox

If the AI has more planets than you or more population, then with the same military/social/tech split, they could have more technology than you. Or, they could be investing a larger percentage of their economy in research. Or, they could have encountered research improving space debris with their surveyor. Or, they could have starbases on galactic resources that affect technology.

Also, the AI may be trading technology with other players.

Oh, and you mentioned the other reason why the Drengin ship might have increased stats--technology. For example, the 1D, 2D, 3D and 4D Phasing all provide pretty nice bonuses to ships.

Hope that helps.

More hit points can easily be explained as well: Drengin chose War Party *and* spend ability points in the extra Hit Points ability. Attach and defense ratings also are affect by ability point choices as well as several technologies, space debris and random events.

Funny what people "know" isn't it?

And of course the ship gaining stats after you attacked it is just a simple matter of gaining experience. I'd imagine that it gained a level (or two?) after the attack, so make sure to look at that as well when you're comparing the before/after.

That's why you always want to get that big and nasty starbase on the first or second attack. Attacking level 20+ starbases just ain't fun...

~SDC~

There is only one ship creation module and 1 battle module in the game. It makes no distinction who the player is.

One thing I suspect you didn't take into account is that ships level-up with experience. I suspect that's why its hitpoints went up.

See the other messages about how players are getting very powerful survey ships.

I will say, though, on the topic of what people "know" -- there is often a lack of data available really to understand these things, so some of these conclusions are understandable...

It's unfortunate that half the amateur/peer reviews on the net are crying foul and exclaiming that the AI cheats massively. Perhaps it would be useful to make the no-cheat point clearer in advertisements so this doesn't become part of the image of GalCiv. The infinite range AI colony ship fix in the next patch should help things too. I'm pretty sure AIs popping up colonies half way across the galaxy was the most cited cheat.

A 160 hp battle axe would be a 300% hp bonus, I know of no way to do this in a game that I can think of offhand, it would have to be one hell of a level to reach this bonus by ship level.

The 7 attack would be a 250% attack bonus (which is doable, but normally late game only), but the 6 defense would only be a 20% bonus, which doesn't make sense in conjunction with the 7 attack (since almost everything that boosts attack also boosts defense).

So it seems that something isn't right here, but I don't know what. I've never tried to chart a ship's improvement from leveling, so possibly that is it, but would leveling a ship up lead to such a disparate attack/defense value boost? Does leveling up boost offense more than defense? I thought it boosted all three stats more or less in sync with each other.

It's stunning how enumeration induction, the mere accumulation of positive instances, has become the dominant method of causation theory on Internet message boards.

Well, yesterday some people died somewhere that had some hamburgers for lunch. I too have hamburgers for lunch today, so I will die today.

MoO3 and Civ cheat like hell and are hard, and Gal Civ is hard too, so Gal Civ cheats.

"It's unfortunate that half the amateur/peer reviews on the net are crying foul and exclaiming that the AI cheats massively. Perhaps it would be useful to make the no-cheat point clearer in advertisements so this doesn't become part of the image of GalCiv. The infinite range AI colony ship fix in the next patch should help things too. I'm pretty sure AIs popping up colonies half way across the galaxy was the most cited cheat."

Or maybe game designers should be a little more straight-foward when it comes to game mechanics. One thing I don't like about GalCIv is how there is all these hidden mechanics and factors that make or break the game. At least in a TBS like HOMM3, I would know *why* I lost against the computer. In this game, its hard to improve your strategies since you don't know how the AI had better ships or such huge influence. The lack of tech tree in the game doesn't make it better either, since half the time I have no idea what I am researching for.

Vorlin: Except for the hitpoints, it all makes sense if it was a battle hammer instead of a battle axe. In fact, if it was a 1.02 battle hammer, even the hitpoints can make sense.

I dont think you know enough about the workings of the game to know how the AI gets benefits. A few of the above posts should tell you a little about what you didnt know. You may have heard this before ( I know I did) but you may not know enough about the game to really enjoy it yet. In this case, its not defensive bullcrap, its true.
Also, dont be so mortally offended. IF the game cheats, and I'm saying IF (know the diff between cheating and announced and documented AI benefits) so what? Name one PC game on the planet that doesnt cheat. And like bloody hell to boot.
Cheers.

rats. I thought this was going to be about all of the 1-for-1 tech trading that the AIs do with each other but refuse to do with the human.

wampyre, you're losing your grip again. Get Bobo out of the cellar.

Well, war party gives you 50% right off. Getting another 250% via techs, anomolies, etc.. is hardly a reach. Especially on larger galaxies.

And why NukerDonkey do you feel you must have the entire mechanics of this game mapped out for it to be enjoyable? It is pretty simple.. the AI can only do what YOU do. So learn to improve your ships HPs and attack, and you will know how your enemy did it. It is not that complex really.. there are at least 3 excellent resources for techs (2 being nice tech trees), and another that will filter and find ANY tech for instance, that will improve your hitpoints.. or morale, or anything else.

There *will* be an ingame tech tree in the expansion.. so until then, either use player resources (which make 4x games that much more fun, imo.. Space Empires IV would not be near the game it is except for player improvements), or wait for the expansion *shrug*

fleabitfox

Well, harkening back to my Civ days, the motto is: "Get pounded on, get better." Cheating or not is not the real issue, in my opinion. The real issue is whether the player is going to toughen up and get mean or go back down to a level that the player can handle. I advise some strenous workouts.

" Or maybe game designers should be a little more straight-foward when it comes to game mechanics. One thing I don't like about GalCIv is how there is all these hidden mechanics and factors that make or break the game. At least in a TBS like HOMM3, I would know *why* I lost against the computer. In this game, its hard to improve your strategies since you don't know how the AI had better ships or such huge influence."

It's pretty easy to check out. Look at the base ship stats. Look at the ships level. Look for any other starbases in the sector that might be giving it a military boost. Go to the Stats screen and look at that race's offensive, defensive, and hit point stat levels.

If you haven't done enough espionage to be able to see the stats, well, the designers gave you a way to get the information, it's up to you to use it.

Humm...

Well, I have noticed that the Drengin seem to be able to bully better then I would expect. In a recent game I played, they bullied two minor AIs into handing over tech, based purely, AFAICT, on the strength of their Survey craft alone (they had only scouts from pop ups, and colony ships left ofter from the yellow sun rush, at the time).

There are a few things that the AI can do that you cannot. But then, there are lots you can do that the AI cannot.

AIR, on any level below 'Intelligent', the game is cheating for you. The AI is penalized by various amounts on its economy. On Incredible and Up, it gets bonuses to its economy.

As for how the AI got those stats, there are also events that can yield a bonuses every turn. Like that event that adds to a stat, every turn.

Does the AI get to do some things the player cannot? Yes. But according to the design, these are relatively few.

"There is only one ship creation module and 1 battle module in the game. It makes no distinction who the player is."

Then why did the "=" bug a little while ago only cause one alien species to get lots of constructors?

Thongor: I've had the AI do 1 for 1 tech trades with me. Most often when the AI initiates the trade, but sometimes even when I make the offer.

Ransom: if I'm understanding it correctly, the module creates the ships, it doesn't schedule the creation. The bug caused the module to get called every turn, instead of at the proper interval.

All: I still say that NukeDonkey2K is playing 1.02 or earlier, and wasn't paying attention or isn't clearly remembering. Those stats are perfectly normal for a pre-nerfed battle hammer, though they don't make sense for a battle axe in any form.

Fleabitfox, there are no anomolies that give +hitpoints to your non-surveyor ships that I'm aware of. And there are few techs that do so, and two of those are at the very end of the research tree (and all the tech ones are just +10% if I remember right).

I think it is much more likely that Popup Target hit the nail on the head: it wasn't a battle axe, it was a 1.02 battlehammer. In fact, looking over my notes I'm almost positive he's right. A 1.02 battlehammer had 90 hitpoints, 5 attack, 4 defense. Nuke's final sighting of the ship in question was 160 hitpoints, 10 attack, 8 defense. +100% attack, +100% defense, about +80% hitpoints. -Much- more sensible, now attack and defense bonuses are in line with each other, and the hitpoint bonus is a racial +50% plus some tech advances. So not cheating, just a misunderstanding of some game mechanics plus a misidentification of the initial ship.

It's worth noting for any who don't already know, that the AI's get racial picks just like the humans do. So you can see AIs with big bonuses to influence, or hitpoints, or research, or whatever, just like a human player can get. If I understand it right on levels past intelligent they get even more ability points to pick with, but I might be wrong on this.