I guess GalCiv can survive Germany, but...

Yeah. Quite a few games have been banned over the last couple years and C&C Gemerals is only one of the more popular titles. Unfortunately, the people who want to "save us" from "harmful" content in computer games and similar media are taking away our freedom to chose what we want to see or play. Events like the massacre in Erfurt a year ago only feed the flames of those who blame computer games for killing sprees and other violent outbursts.
In case you don't know - there was this teenager who showed up in school one day with a gun or rifle and shot several teachers and pupils. Turned out he was a Counterstrike player. Of course this turned into a massive media campaign against violent games of all kinds, especially ego shooters.

Of course we all know that you can still order banned games in Austria or, even easier, download them if you want to.

The "ban" only means that the game cannot be advertised anymore and it can only be sold to adults.
From what I have read about the game nobody is at a great loss anyway if he misses out on that game.

I think it is funny that mostly Americans misunderstand such stories and blame Germany for lack of freedom.
On the other hand very few Americans seem to worry about what freedoms they really have today. Just thinking about Patriot Act 1+2...
America, The land of the free - those times are gone IMHO. But if the people still believe it then that is brilliant marketing.
When we get our own version of the Patriot acts the fun will be over. After all we already got our version of the DMCA.

Germany is seriously twisted at times. The kind of problems Paradox have had getting HOI sanitised so it would be allowed are quite staggering.

Being aware of history is one thing, but hiding and trying to suppress it is quite another.

If Paradox had been more clever they would have looked at what happened to previous games (Castle Wolfenstein and Panzer General come to mind). Then they could have easily avoided any trouble.

Actually the opposite of what you say is true. There is a lot of awareness of last centurys history. Anyone who has been to Germany for a while can tell you that.

I can understand the sensitivity in Germany. But the war DID happen. That cannot be changed. What I dont understand is the harsh treatment of some games on the subject yet other games are left alone...the ones from German publishers. First Strike, BlitzKreig, Panzers etc. What am I missing? BTW, C and C Generals SHOULD be censored or restricted for content: STUPID GAMERPLAY DONE TO DEATH content. And there should be a law that prohibits sale of that game to adults. It should only be sold to dork teenagers.
Just kidding.
Cheers.

I can understand the sensitivity in Germany. But the war DID happen. That cannot be changed. What I dont understand is the harsh treatment of some games on the subject yet other games are left alone...the ones from German publishers. First Strike, BlitzKreig, Panzers etc. What am I missing? BTW, C and C Generals SHOULD be censored or restricted for content: STUPID GAMERPLAY DONE TO DEATH content. And there should be a law that prohibits sale of that game to adults. It should only be sold to dork teenagers.
Just kidding.
Cheers.

As was mentioned before sometimes an event like the shooting in Erfurt puts pressure on politicians to do something. They decided to blame video games for this.

I don't know enough about the gameplay in Blitzkrieg. One of the issues with C&C was that you are ordered to attack civilians. Do those other games feature something similar?

We have the same anti-video game campaigns here in the US especially after our own version of the Erfurt incident (Columbine). Any gamer here probably already have modded their Quake/Doom/Counterstrike to have the baddies have the head of Lieberman on it (senator who leads the criticism on games) LOL

IMHO, there should be stricter standards than the rating you find in games; i.e., regulate it in stores and take into account the content better. It doesn't matter if the game has an M rating on it if the guy at the game store just sells it to anyone. And of course, no amount of regulation or law would work if the parenting/family environment doesn't lead the way...

PC games dont kill. Idiots, assholes, thugs, creeps, monsters, and other lower forms of human scum kill. But it is good press for the politicians to "do something" positive by banning games with violence. There, that will stop the killing now, wont it?
Fot the record, I believe C and C is a rotten game...nothing to do with political correctness and all that nonsense. It just stinks. So banning that game is no big deal. Its the bigger picture that worries me.

Not sure how many other games involve the killing of civilians, but, GTA and Postal come to mind as a couple of the more "base" games if you will. At any rate, I let my 15 yr old play most any game out there. Thus far, he still gets comments on his report cards about his "great citizenship", "excellent class participation", and other comments about how nice and helpful he is, while maintaining grades and conduct that allow him to stay in the National Junior Honor Society. Computer games don't seem to be affecting him in a negative way. WEll, other than serious time losses...hehe. (and so far he seems to have good taste in games except that I can't get him very interested in GalCiv yet)

At any rate, my opinion is that the level of parental guidance and involvement FROM A VERY EARLY AGE is the most effective means for avoiding the raising of a psycho kid. In my profession, I see too many people who try to control there kids when they start getting in trouble rather than having nurtured appropriate behavior from when they were little. One consistent problem I see in most of these cases is the lack of interest in the kid's life, as well as no sense of proportion in discipline. A glass of spilled milk gets a slap to the head. Driving in a stolen car gets a slap to the head. Getting lost in the store, slap to the head. For some, that translates to, if I'm gonna get whacked, I might as well make it worth it. I have caught 12 year olds driving stolen cars, and know of as young as 9 year olds doing the same thing.

Okay, I'm blah blah blahing again, I know, sorry. Short version, parents not computer games make psycho kids.

~SDC~

The problem is you cant legislate good parenting. You CAN puff out your chest and write laws to ban Pc games, or comics or music or whatever else the experts say is causing kids to go bonkers. It gives the ignorant the IMPRESSION that something is being done.And it takes the responsibility off the rotten parents who for whatever reason, shouldnt have children.
Cold I know. But TRUE.
Now, about playing games................

Citizen wampyre on 5/8/2003 at 4:26:26 PM said;

/QUOTE ON

The problem is you cant legislate good parenting. You CAN puff out your chest and write laws to ban Pc games, or comics or music or whatever else the experts say is causing kids to go bonkers. It gives the ignorant the IMPRESSION that something is being done.And it takes the responsibility off the rotten parents who for whatever reason, shouldnt have children.
Cold I know. But TRUE.
Now, about playing games................

/QUOTE OFF

Parenting skills can't be the only answer to what I think is a much more complex problem. I doubt if they are even the most important factor.

How else do you explain the siblings who go in totally different directions? ie. one brother becomes an upright member of the community and an other becomes public enemy #1.

Kids are much more individual, from the instant they are born, then many people think.

Every time I hear the expression "You must be so proud." said to a parent when their child accomplishes some great thing I picture him (or her) saying "Yes, but then again his brother is a serial rapist so do I have to take the blame for that too?"

Good and bad kids come from both good and bad homes. (parenting wise)

Tis a puzzlement.

Elrikk

PS. Oh about games . . . they are great.


~SDC~

I agree with you on the importance of good parenting.
And to come back to the original topic: There is absolutely so reason why
GalCiv should even come close to being banned in Germany.
Sadly it hasn't even been published here as far as I know. I also have not
seen reviews of the game in the local games magazines.

And now back to the game....

~SDC~

I suspect there is a lot of 'self-censorship' going on in the US due to market consideration and the ubiquitous political correctness pressures. doesn't make any difference to me - the result is the same - censorship.

there is this old violence vs. sex battle where extereme violence (esp. towards the 'bad guys') is premissable whereas as much as a nekkid nipple can get you an M rating (and lower your sales).

while I'm critical of censorship, I do draw lines that I personally won't step over. that's why the desire to pour max realism into every game nowdays often freaks me out.

on the other hand, many game's only redeeming features are their shock factor. it's easier to make sellable games (or movies) that way. appeal to the ape in all of us. the first posts on many forums are "How do I enable blood?". the vast majority of modern day fps's fall into that for me.

that's why I still like Blizzard's games, since they always put that 'cartoony' feel in them on purpose... my few cents.

None of those games are "banned". They are "on the index", which means that they, much like porn in the US, may not be sold or advertised to children below 18. If you are above 18, you can still get it fine.

And no, I don't think that it is appropriate for children to play games where they get teached to use suicide bombers or anthrax rockets.

This has nothing to do with free speech.

I do beleive the FPS Vietcong was consored heavily in the US Version. Where the EU version is uncut.

The US also said it was unsuitable for its minors.

~SDC~

The uproar over C&C Generals being "indexed" in Germany is utterly pathetic. The game can still be sold over there, without any "modifications". To have various websites on the warpath over this has been the most appalling display of idiocy I've ever seen when it comes to 'censorship'.
The game was released, the government said "hey, maybe only 18+ people should play this", big deal.
If a game is deemed to contain content suitable only for people 18+ in Australia it is BANNED. Not indexed. No pussy-footing around and only having it under the counter and not on shelves. YOU CAN NOT BUY AN 18+ GAME IN AUSTRALIA.
Grand Theft Auto III was slapped with just such a ban after release.. Not because you could shoot people. Not because you can steal cars. Not because you can take steroids.
Because you can hire a hooker and choose to kill her afterwards. In a country where a brothel has just gone onto the stock exchange.
It later saw a release where you couldn't hire hookers. You could still pop people's heads off with a blast from a sniper rifle, though!

Germans whinging about this are a pack of tossers. Get over it.

~SDC~

Elrikk-some good points but how do you explain the untold millions of people (kids, adults, whatever) that DONT go on killing sprees after playing GTA3 or Postal2?
The point I was trying to make (but obviously failed to) was that the public wants to blame the easy thing on unacceptble behaviour. Now, bad parenting is, I'm sure, not the only factor...but I disagree with you in that I think its an IMPORTANT factor. And in some cases, the overriding factor.
Time to let Bobo out of the cellar as I'm losing it.

Cheers.

To Bobo's father . . . er . . . owner . . . er . . . whatever :notsure:

I wasn't disagreeing with the fact that most people want to blame the unacceptable behaivour of some kids on the most convient thing and that for many the convient target of the day is games, movies and the media in general.

My only point was that I think that blaming it on poor parenting skills is just another one of the easy ways out. I mean we have to blame somebody right ? That seems to be the whole point of the exercise; pinning the blame. Seems to have a lot to do with the varying degrees of control that different people feel comfortable with. The more a society needs to feel in control the more it needs to have a clearly understood chain of blame. And since we can't "blame" the kids themselves (?) then the most obvious cause of this is the parent(s).

Anyway you seem to be doing a fine job with Bobo.


Elrikk


PS. I once, long ago and far far away, had a good friend who had a PhD. in Music Composition and taught in a leading university. A more straight up individual would be hard to imagine. His wife was about to give birth to their first child and we were talking about his plans. He said that he felt that he had a good grasp on his future responsibilities to the child; "I have already started a fund for his education" he said, "and/or his bail." I decided right then that he did in fact have a good grasp of the situation.

~SDC~

It does not affect GalCiv? Well...wrong! I am from germany and since 1st of April this year we have a new law here that says all titles that are not tested by the "USK" are to be treated as if they were tested and rated for Ages of at least 18. That happened to GalCiv aswell even while an american pendant to the USK has tested it already and said "Mild Violence - Everyone".

So I had to send in a copy of my Identity Card to order it. I would not have been able to do that if I'd be under 18! So right now without an european release that is tested by the "USK" (test costs the company 1000?) there's a big audience in germany that cannot be reached... at least not legally...

For those in Europe with the game come and join the European Alliance

We have Apolyton (first place) in our sights.

The empire needs you!

For those in Europe with the game come and join the European Alliance

We have Apolyton (first place) in our sights.

The empire needs you!

@AIL.ST

I don't think this applies when you order directly from Stardock. They are not in German legislation and don't need to care about this new law.
And I don't think that you can't be blamed either because the one who make the restricted stuff available to kids is the one who violates the law. But IANAL.

@BigBadger

How are Empire scores calculated? If they do averages then your are better off if I don't join your empire.

Markus - I'll check for you, but I'm sure it is not averaged

Bobo say to Elrikk: ok. Bobo see what Elrikk saying to wampyre. Bobo also ask Elrikk: How much spent on bail for kids? Or all money go on college?