Spacepony said:



I think you are right on this Spacepony - that China is going through its own social / political revolution. A couple of side points to add to your comment.

First, Communism itself is a relatively recent ideology for China. We have a history going back 5000 years. Communism came into play only 80 years ago. Sometimes I get the feeling there is a sense that China has been Communist forever.

Secondly, China's concept of Communism has been in a state of constant evolution - which often makes it hard for me to understand what it really means. The unsound policies of the 'Great Leap Forward' in 1958-1960, the 'intellectual golden age' of 1960-1966, the tragedy of the cultural revolution from 1966-1976, the open door policies of Deng Xiaoping and now this 'WTO / free markets and capitalism' period are all under the banner of 'Communism'. And that's all been in 50 years. That's a very short time to have a lot change. Added to this is the various emotions and special meaning that 'Communism' has to people outside China - I often find it difficult to discuss when the parties in the conversation mean different things by the same word. Do appreciate your insights.

General Etrius said:



If you have a link to the article General Etrius, I'd be grateful to have a look at that article. I like to read about what English media says about China.

It's true there is a big push to install cameras on our Beijing streets right now. I understand its for traffic monitoring - our traffic is enormously bad. I don't know if that's what the article is referring to. I am hoping they put MORE cameras to stop our taxi drivers being ridiculous all the time.

I suppose it could be argued that installing cameras is a way to watch people and make sure they aren't saying bad things about the government. If that's true, I'd be annoyed - is there a reference as to where these cameras are being installed? I'd hope my tax dollars are being spent on something other than installing highly sophisticated microphone equipped audio visual cameras in my office just to listen to my boring rants. I would hope that things like earthquake rescue take a bit of priority over observing me for political dissent.


Zydor said:



I think this is right Zydor - things are in motion now for a set of changes that are not going to be easily stopped. From one perspective, that's all good e.g. more liberal society, greater expressions of freedom, more political dialogue etc. Furthemore, people are slowly being pulled out of poverty, education is increasing, discussion with overseas groups is ever more.

Just adding the other view which is sometimes made here - all these new liberalism come at a cost which some people are unhappy about.

I've made the comment earlier about the older generation quering whether all these new 'freedoms' are actually good when compared to what they've lost. There is also a massive spike in divorce rates, an increase in crime, drugs, prostitution, infidelity, sexual disease, teenage pregnancy, alcoholism. Although there is less poverty overall, there is also a much greater wealth disparity between rich and poor than ever before. The new form of government offers minimal to no welfare. I agree that not all of this is directly because of the increasingly liberalism - and I suspect there is some coincidence.

One of the challenges we as a country must face is how to embrace the 'good' of the new form of society whilst doing our best to minimise the 'bad'. I don't have any simple answers for that.

To Spacepony's and Zydor's point about what sort of person wants to be in government - I have given strong thought about being in government here because I want a more directly affect the way things happen (hopefully I'm closer to a visionaries than a cess pit). Two reasons against it for now - one, the pay for public work is much much lower than private work and for purely selfish personal reasons, I want to stay private for now. Maybe when I'm more financially secure... Two, wouldn't it be weird if I posted on stardock 'defending' china... AND REALLY WAS A COMMUNIST PARTY GOVERNMENT OFFICIAL??? I wouldn't have much credible about not being a propaganda agent then

Maxsw1 said:





Elias01 said:



Here's my thoughts on Falun Gong. I'm sure Elias and Maxsw01 are likely to know more than I so welcome your thoughts.

There is a part of Falun Gong that is purely a "buddhist/Daoist cultivation practice that focuses on removing attachments and being a better person". From what I've observed, it's a little bit of yoga and meditation mixed together. This is purely harmless and probably a lot of fun and enlightenment.

To your point Maxsw01, I understand that you are saying the Communist Party was worried that more people were practicing Falun Gong than were registered members of the Party, so we should kill Falun Gong? With respect, there are many groups with members more than the Communist Party - what is the special thing about Falun Gong? From owners of cars, to practitioners of karate, to internet users who play a certain MMPORG that is popular in China. So why is Falun Gong the special treatment? It is very unclear to me.

I am guessing there is also a group of people using the Falun Gong name, that practices the 'yoga' (I'm sorry Maxsw01, I don't know how else to call it), but is also very active with 'other stuff'.

I don't pretend to know what the other stuff is - and I'm guessing at least part of it is to criticise the Chinese government. There's nothing automatic wrong with that. What is illogic to me is that plenty of people criticise the Chinese government - in and outside of China. So again, what is the special thing about Falun Gong that automatically targets it for special treatment? (note that if the sole 'other stuff' is, we criticise the chinese government, then it's obviously extremely difficult to justify "brutalizing and torture and organ harvesting" that you say)

Then there are reports of a group that cheers the earthquake for killing lots of Communists and hopes that we can have another earthquake soon to kill more. This group wrote an open letter to the Chinese people saying that the earthquake also is vengeance for attacking Tibet and taking the torch to Mt. Everest. Of course, that provokes a strong reaction in me. And makes me very against Falun Gong - even though I don't know more information.

But perhaps a more important query is - if I was going to condemn China or provoke with a comment about the earthquake, why would I do so through a group that promotes the meditation and practice of being a better person? And why would the group allow the use of its name in such a way? Surely, it opposes being dragged into politics? Even if I was a member of the group and I wanted to make a comment about how good the earthquake was because it killed lots of Communists - why would I link my comment to that group and not, for example, my gym club, my golf club or my yoga club? Something here is not correct to me.

My over simple thinking is that it's not the Falun Gong 'yoga' that is the problem, it's the 'other stuff'. I don't pretend to know what the 'other stuff' is. It's an issue that there is too much illogic for me and no clear picture.

I will say this about the falun gong, I don't have an opinion about them, but seriously, if they have grievances towards the government, don't do it at a time and in a manner that is consider to be inconsiderate to the earthquake victims. Before the earthquake, the Falun gong are alienated sector within and without of china as far as their fellow copatriat are concernced, now, wahtever sympathy they might ganered or credibility of their stories have been completely destroyed.

One further thing, as much as Falun gong like to sell their causes to the westeners about their inhuman plight, but the truth of it is, they should really think about how they are presented to their fellow chinese. If the majority of the Han Chinese don't like them, there is little hope that they will gain sympathy or people will go defending their causes, regardless of how sympathetic the foreigners are to their plight.

just ask the Londoners about cameras. Currently the city with the most heavy surveillance in the world. Not bad for a democracy, Big Brother would have been proud.
As for Falun Dafa, they have considerable talent in protesting abroad and their allegations have led to congressional inquiry in the USA and its equivalent in Canada. They lost steam quickly due to the grossly ridiculous allegations they went on to make about how the Communist Party ran a directed systematic campaign to single out their practitioners for organ theft. One story ran how their undercover source visited a hospital to inquire about organ transplants, requesting specifically Falun Dafa practitioners organs, whereupon the evil doctors gleefully replied that they had many available and would gladly provide them. A glorious throwback to the stories of evil Huns raping nuns and bayoneting babies. Of course, if you believe those stories too, you should keep reading the Epoch Times and other nonsense (warning, continuously recycled stories).

I have just spent 30 mins going through an astonishing series of photos of the earthquake zone, a very sobering collection of images that really drive home the gargantuan scale of what happened, and what they are having to deal with. If you have not seen them, I would suggest having a look - there's dozens/hundreds, keep clicking the "more photos" option at the end of each series of photos. (The more graphic/ugly ones are pre-warned & sidelined as such, for those inclined to react badly to such images).

Its at Quake Photos, look centre right of the page for the "Slideshow" section (unfortunate name for these circumstances - but is the "standard" title in the default section layout for the site), and click on the "Painful quake aftermath" photos.

Puts in perspective whats really important in life, not the peripheral moaning we are used to the "The West" about various (in comparison) Trivia.

Regards
Zy

More than careless ....



I call it verging on moronic.

I certainly dont agree with a few things happening in China at present, although I do believe in the long term direction they are heading. What I am certain of, is comments like this do not help the situation, are to say the least immature, and no amount of Spin will get past that. People who practice amateur spin doctoring always make things worse - usually quite the opposite opinion they have of their own actions.



In the UK, the appointment all Church of England Bishops have to be approved by the Prime Minister. Whilst I in no way claim this to be a direct parallel, and certainly acknowledge a closer government control on the realities of daily religious life in China, the conclusion is too simplistic.

A System is only changed from within, whilst it may be affected by external pressures, change will never occur by yelling alone, there always has to be constructive co-operation within. When the Falon get that into their heads, they might be taken more seriously.

Regards
Zy

For us, Great Britain = England = 英国 yin guo = Kingdom of Heroes

Mi-26 (Halo)

Zydor,

at the risk of opening a mutual admiration club, I wanted to thank you for your posts. Always interesting and I usually find myself agreeing.

There's been a few posts here about the benefits and disadvantages of Democracy and Communism. To add a bit of balance to my postings, let me suggest one reason why Democracy is good that I don't think often gets said.

It makes politicians more charismatic.

When I hear Barack Obama say "I did it for Ashley" or Hillary Clinton talk about universal health care or John McCain talk about pride in the American troops - I'm impressed. Not for their policy itself - we can debate what's good or bad. But for their charisma and ability to speak in public.

When I hear the Taiwanese politicians (and once I get over laughing at their accent), I am always impressed by the way that they speak. It is with charisma, down to earth, human and I can relate to it in a popular way.

I presume this is by-product of requiring to be 'people skills' and popular in order to be voted in. If you're not charismatic and likeable, then no one will vote for you.

In contrast, most mainland chinese politicians are dull, boring and not charisma. Being 'people-skills' or popular is not useful and not a trait to be selected for. The one exception I think is our Premier Wen Jia Bao (Precious Treasure of the Home if you're still interested in translation of names). He speaks with such humanity, passion and emotion - if I had to vote, I'd vote for him.

Now, being popular doesn't necessarily mean you're good. And perhaps democractic elections might place too much of an emphasis on popularity meaning someone who wants to make hard unpopular but neverthless good decisions does not get into power.

But I do very much acknowledge one benefit of requiring democratic elections is that it forces politicans to show 'human side popularity' and thus they tend to make great speeches (the Ashley speech, "ask not what your country can do for you...", "never have so few done so much for so many" etc.) and have charisma.

China needs to invest in those deserts, replanting them and moving populations there when habatable for them, it can make them have better economics.Also building large cities down there too because I know chinese are great at building tall buildings,reporting from the US, DessanT,back to you Tom.

@ Mighty Goobi,

One thing I have noticed in Australian politics (I will not stoop so low as to call it democracy here), is that "charisma" is merely a delivery system, much like the housing of a missile. It enables the necessary agent to get to where it needs to go (in our case, this agent is usually some sort of rabid patriotism counterfaced with individual pride ((sports is good for this))) to maintain industrial growth.

A good politician therefore, as an agent of industrial growth him/herself, should always invest heavily in lubricant/charisma, in order to reach larger concentrations of people. After all... the more people you can infect with your rhetoric... the more chance you have of winning the four-yearly "election."

An excellent example of this dynamic is the computer game DEFCON, though it is devoid of charisma, it nonetheless demonstrates the numbers/victory ratio quite well.

Regards,
ubernaught

hate to bother you Goobi but can you translation for the United States of America, and also what is the Gobi desert like? Does it have anything special about it or is it just very hot?

Thank you Space Poney I should have probally look back on MightyGoobies past replys to this post before asking

From talking to some of my friends from Guangzhou, it feels like the the Indonesian "democracy" has the same level of freedom as the Chinese neo communism (dunno what to call it sorry :socialist?. I think a lot of things have just lost its meaning.