mightygoobi, I shudder to think how articulate you are in your first and second languages, because that amazing post is far above what I expect from most people who speak English as a first language. Very interesting post. Thanks.

Thank you kindly ghostwes - I'm glad I was able to be understood. It frustrates me that it takes me far longer to write in English than 99% of the people on this board. And as I ended my monologue just then, I try

I'm hoping that the next generation of Chinese people from my country will be able to articulately discuss international issues, in English, with as much skill as you do over there in the States. Here in China, there are endless articles, newspaper publications, letters to the editor in Mandarin where we decry how bad western media is, how the world picks on us, how life is unfair, how XXX is biased etc. etc.

But that's like preaching to the converted. Until we learn to speak, write and communicate in English better, we're always going to be at a huge disadvantage.

Whether it be Tibet, human rights, Darfur etc. we do a terrible terrible job of putting forward our point of view. I'm not saying we're right. I am saying there are many different reflections on any story - but the Chinese voice is rarely heard.

It's not enough for us just to issue Mandarin press releases. Mandarin is a very different language to English. We are improving - we now have translators, interpreters and government officials that are good with grammar and syntax. But what we don't have are people who translate 'meaning'. Mandarin is a language naturally filled with flowery prose - we don't have 'normal' names like Beijing or Tian An Men. In our language, they are 'City of the North' and 'Gate of Heavenly Peace'. My own 'real' name is 'He who is brilliant and magnificent'. In Mandarin, such names sound normal - if you DON'T have such a name, it's weird. But you can't just translate 'mightygoobi' into 'He who is brilliant and magnificent' and expect western based and educated people to take you seriously.

When our government officials, when our Olympic's spokespeople, when our media agents talk about China in English, we sound like Chairman Mao from the 60s. I KNOW it sounds bad and I cringe. I sigh every time I see us simply taking our 'flowery prose' of Mandarin, translating it into English with perfect grammar and coming out with "The glorious People's Republic of China shall never accept the tyrants who chose to split the motherland and terrorists who attack the soul of the People who believe in the unifying harmony of the Olympic spirit" (published today in the English press here in Beijing).

I'm sorry to the original poster - I've diverted WAY off the topic. I should end my ranting

... and I compltely agree with the first reply to this thread. We should build more Entertainment Networks.

Well, now you're insulting me. I'm Canadian, sir, not American

In fact, I have three Canadian friends who are teaching English in China right now. Most ESL teachers seem to go to South Korea these days--formerly, it was Japan--but China seems to be becoming a big one. That's good. There's not much else for Canadian university students to do after graduation -- we have to send them somewhere!

I get what you are saying about China's bad PR. I think the same can be said of Iran right now, actually, as this amusing blog post shows:

http://powerofnarrative.blogspot.com/2008/04/those-clever-dastardly-iranians.html

Hey, I am the original poster, and aftear that amazing post you had, I dont care what you post. I am going give karma for that China post because that is one of best I have heard. And also you were not that off topic, you should see how off topic people can be.

Sorry I did not finsih my comment. Does any body know why China invaded Tibet?

This is becoming horribly addictive. The original reason I logged on here was to find some MODS for Galciv2 and I'm now writing essays on China. My apologies for the lengths of my posts.  

Tibet is such a big issue that it probably deserves it's own thread - and this thread is becoming the 'China and it's various things' thread so I guess such talk should neverthless belong in here.

Rather than post a very subjective one liner answer to "why did China invade Tibet", might I offer my understanding of China / Tibetan history. As mentioned in my first post, I am NO historian, I'm a gamer - so the following is likely loaded with inaccuracies. This is however my understanding of some important historical events.


i) Way back in the Tang dynasty (approximately 600-900 I think), there was no 'one China' as such, just lots of little feuding tribes. With dozens of rival tribes around, the Han and Tibetan tribes try to find ways to stay alive and kill others - so they come up with the marriage of a Han prince to a Tibetan princess in 641AD - which appears to be the first high level formal linking of the two tribes. The Han tribe, with the Tibetan tribe, comes to dominate and this is seen as China's first'golden age'... lots of art, culture, free sex, trade and poetry. China's only female emperor rules during this period. Women hunt with men, rich families sponsor poets and plays, huge temples and art galleries are built etc. China's borders are blurry, and it's difficult to say that there is one country at this stage as opposed to 'a block of land ruled by a Han / Tibetan / Hui (another tribe) mixed-blood coalition'.

ii) Hurtling forward to the Yuan dynasty (1200-1400 or so), the Han of the Tang dynasty have fallen into decline. A new tribe from the north west, the Mongols ride in and wipe the floor with Han blood. The Tibetans and Mongols get on pretty well. Kublai Khan, leader of the Mongols, unifies China (unifies meaning kills all the Han leaders) and in 1279 founds the Yuan dynasty. Tibet, and in fact all of China (Shanghai, Xi'an, Guandong etc. but not Beijing since it formally doesn't exist at this time... though I seem to remember the Mongols had their own name for the tiny village that would one day become China's capital)) is part of this 'Khan' empire. The Mongol tribe dominates.

iii) Around 1400, the Yuan dynasty comes to an end (the Han rise up against the Mongols, the Mongols decide it's not worth it, get on their horses and ride back home). Ming dynasty starts and the Han are back in power again - this time without Hui or Tibetan partnership.

iv) Around 1600, the Han fall (rise and fall, rise and fall... history of China) and the Manchu tribe comes along and wipes out all the leaders - thus starting the Qing dynasty (I think it's intersting that 'dynasty' is a euphemism for 'civil war in which we assassinate all the leaders we don't like and put our own people in'). The Manchu's are in power for a long time... about 300 years to around 1900. This was the 2nd golden age of China. I think (though am not certain) that this period is the first time China adopted it's formal name of 'Middle Kingdom' - the thinking being that we are the masters of the universe and so everyone has got to kowtow to us. There's plenty of stories (which China LOVES to tell) of foreign dignataries from Italy, Japan, France etc. all queuing up to deliver tributes (Italian marble, French pianios, Persian spices etc.) to the mighty powerful Manchu rulers. In fairness though, the Chinese name for foreign lands is usually very poetic (England = Kingdom of Heroes; Germany = Kingdom of morality; the United States = Kingdom of beauty... don't ask me why, I don't know.. but we use these names even till today).

Mainland China says that Tibet (and everyone else in the world) worshipped the Manchu during this time and were eager to associate with the Manchu leaders. Some Tibetans point to the decadence of the period (prostitution, corruption, open gang warfare) flourishing of the opium drug trade, subjugation of Shanghai by foreign countries as signs of an empire in decline and a leadership it would never want to be associated with. One by one, the Manchu's lose wars (and land) against the French, the Germans, the Japanese, the Koreans and the Russians.

In 1912, the last of China's imperial dynasties ends. The Qing dynasty and the Qing emperor is the last. Sun Yat Sen formally declares the birth of the People's Republic of China. As part of this birth, it is announced that the five major 'tribes' - the Han, the Manchu, the Tibetans, the Mongols and the Hui would come together to form a new Republic (there are of course lots and lots of other smaller tribes, but these 5 are the big ones that have at one time had historical 'control' of China).

Mainland China says this declaration is formally accepted by all tribes who are tired of war and finally able to come to a unified peace under one flag, one country, one government, one anthem, one Constitution. Some Tibetans says that whilst certain traitor Tibetans were happy to associate with this new country, real Tibetans have been hungering for their own country since 1300 and Tibet never wanted to be part of the new Republic.

From 1950, parts of Tibet seek to declare independence from mainland China - claiming subjugation by the Han controlled new Chinese government (the Communist Party of China) and that they never wanted to or accepted being dominated by a foreign tribe. In 1959, things come to a head with open rioting in the streets. After extended violence, the government of China authorises the use of military troops to restore order. Mainland China says this was a very very last resort, after years of attempts to quell rioting and develop peace through dialogue and diplomacy - and that military troops were under strict instructions to show maximum restraint recognising that this was sure to be high on international media radars and that the goal was to win the heart of Tibet, not stomp it into the ground. Parts of Tibet say this was invasion of their soverign soil and that the attempts at dialogue were shams aimed at destroying Tibetan culture and replacing it with Han - and that military troops were brutal and violated all manner of human rights.

It is at this time that the present Dalai Lama flees Tibet.

Oh God... I have GOT to stop writing so much. Anyone else from China, please feel free to correct me - I'm certain I don't know it all. (and sorry to Nequa... I now acknowledge you are Canadian and not American .... though I must admit I can not tell the difference in look or accent. Similarly, I'm pretty certain most western people confuse China, Japan and Korea... after all, we're all "Asian".

Why do we in The United States have a hard on for Iran and for Mahmūd Ahmadinejād in particular?

Can you say Hostages? Can you say 444 days? Sure you can.

Now the current President Mahmūd Ahmadinejād, was one of the student leaders involved in the taking of the embassy back in 1979. Most people do not recall this as it has not really been brought up all that much.
Do not underestimate this man. The press often pokes fun at him but he did not get where he is by being stupid! He is very very dangerous and needs to be dealt with accordingly. (Not that the Bush Administration knows how to properly deal with it, but that is another story)

Another thing many people forget (That I make a point of reminding people about) is that there was one country that placed its own people in jeopardy in order to assist The United States during the hostage situation. They gathered together from other embassies all of the Americans who managed not to get captured when the American Embassy was stormed and then they took the passports away from their own people, left their own people stranded in a very hostile country and risked having their embassy taken by the very same people (The Iranian government) and their own people shot for their actions. Their own people offered themselves up to do this, they were not forced to do it, they offered.

This country said nothing to us or anyone else until they had managed to get many Americans out of Iran and to their country. They did this without asking, consulting or even giving us a hint.

They did not make big hay about it when it became public and they have never asked The United States for anything in return.
Their stated reason for doing it? “It was the right thing to do”

Do you know who this country was?

Can you say Canada? Sure you can... One of the great things about living in The United States is that you get to have Canada as a neighbor. (even if they did send us the baldwins)

Look, do you think you could give us a reputable link or... something... for all these "facts" that you post? There is no proof that he was involved in the hostage situation. Even the CIA doesn't seem to think he was involved, and if there was ever an organization that would claim it to be true, even if it wasn't... well, suffice to say, I think I'll go with "not guilty" on this one, your honour.

Here's some reading material for you:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_Ahmadinejad_and_the_1979_Hostage_Crisis

Sure, it's a wikipedia link, but you can follow the sources and investigate it for yourself, ok?

And I'm still waiting for some kind of source to support your claim that Ahmadinejad "threatened to destroy the world"...



You're very welcome, but... the Baldwins? Who?

oops.. I should have acknowledged Ghostwes, not Nequa as Canadian. My apologies. I would have editted my above post... but don't know how.

this is a messed up form, oviously america is gona get pissed at sum one do sumthing stupid and start a war, and or the middle east stop's suppling oil and we take it from them and that starts a war.

Either way this happens america will always be a superpower, but if america isn't a super power then no other country's will every be as powerful as it or we will take them down wit us,
america wont go down without a fight. If its economic crash, european countries are recruired 2 help america, this in turn the only way 2 destroy america and or weaken it is wit force. this will create a world war and inturn=armageden

(don't mind spelling) i'm young.

Already in the process.



This isn't about America being destroyed by another nation or group of nations. It's about America destroying itself (through rapid over-consumption, etc.) This is about another nation becoming economically and culturally dominant. However, like I stated in posts before, the American army does work in the interests of corporate America. The war in Iraq displays this point exactly.



Not likely. Many empires have risen and fallen over the thousands of years of human civilization, and none have produced the armageddon. The Mongol Empire was the largest empire the world has ever seen, and it's fall was gradual. The English Empire controlled approximately 1/4 of the world's population, and it's decline didn't occur with armageddon. As long as America has its army, it will remain a superpower. However, if America cannot support itself, then it will no longer be able to support its army.

I will have to get back to you on this one as I am pressed for time today. I know that sounds like a cop out but please bear with me. I try to make sure that my links are reputable and that is not always evident on first blush, it takes a lot of time to check out those who are supposidly checking out details.

But I will say this much. I do not have at my finger tips the needed info to back up my statements, I will have to dig it up.

Given the ridiculous claims you've been posting in this forum, I won't be holding my breath, but OK, whatever. Maybe you know more about this than the CIA does.

However, couldn't you have at least answered the question about the Baldwins?

Goobi you just hit edit and you change what you need

Goobi

Dont apologise - not for a moment. Personally I find it refreshing to hear different perspectives from those in the middle of current events, and not just a repost of whats printed elsewhere. We humans are great ones for the herd instinct, jumping on popularist bandwagons stiffling original thought and reasoning.

So dont stop, the more varied the membership here, the wider the areas in the world, the more interesting it becomes. There's a great quote I love often attributed to Edmond Burke, but no one really knows if it was his or not:

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil, is for good men to do nothing"

As long as there are a few good people around not afraid to speak up, the former will never happen.

Addictive? Sure is!


Regards
Zy

I agree with Zydor, your long posts just show how commited you are to making sure everybody gets what you are saying (a problem I am plagued by). So keep those long post rolling  .

Ok, have gathered some material about my claims.

http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle/2005/7/992E9294-D81D-4093-A38B-20DC9642013B.html

Questions about Ahmadinejad's role in the U.S. Embassy occupation were raised in recent days after a photograph of a bearded hostage-taker leading a blindfolded American hostage was published on several websites.

Some believe the hostage-taker is Ahmadinejad, but others, including some of his aides, have dismissed the claim. Photos of Ahmadinejad from that time published on his website (http://www.mardomyar.com) show little resemblance.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controversies_surrounding_Mahmoud_Ahmadinejad

From the Asia Times: http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/GJ28Ak03.html

"Once, his eminency Imam [Ruhollah] Khomeini - leader of the 1979 Islamic revolution], stated that the illegal regime of the Pahlavis must go, and it happened. Then he said the Soviet empire would disappear, and it happened. He also said that this evil man Saddam [Hussein] must be punished, and we see that he is under trial in his country. His eminency also said that the occupation regime of Qods [Jerusalem, or Israel] must be wiped off from the map of the world, and with the help of the Almighty, we shall soon experience a world without America and Zionism, notwithstanding those who doubt."

Most of the other sources on the internet are just rehashes of the same thing.
Ghostwes, on the above two points I will say that it is still open to debate. I lean toward believing, you lean the other way. Until more information comes in either way I will not sit here and try to prove you wrong, for obvious reasons. There is doubt, and until it is cast in stone I will not criticize someone for disagreeing with my conclusions.

Now to address the most important part of what we were discussing, the reprehensible actions of the Canadian People toward The people of The United States. Specifically, you B**t**ds bombing THE BALDWIN FAMILY!

Read below

They claim to have invented hockey, but they suck at it. That and Canadian beer is rank as well. They're too nice and friendly to Americans, all other countries tell jokes, but Canada is to nice, too quiet, and they're right f*****g above us (quote from Dennis Leary)

I went back and saw where I goofed on my typing. I meant to say Even if they did send in people to kill the Baldwin’s, I really screwed up what I was saying as I was also thinking of another Canada/Baldwin remark I made on another post. No wonder I confused you, I managed to confuse myself. Anyway here is the source of my hostile remarks about Canada http://www.dvdactive.com/reviews/dvd/south-park-bigger-longer--uncut.html

Just in case you don't know who the baldwins are http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baldwin_brothers

I would just like to thank you for posting some real information about China. My teacher is a major China fanatic, he goes there in the summer to teach English, and he is married to a Chinese woman, so both of them often tell us all about the small inter-goings of China. On my visit there last April, I learned quite a bit, and I like to share this new understanding with people. I would like to thank you for giving the 'real' Chinese spin on things, since although I do have a general idea of what I am talking about, it helps to have someone reinforce it. Thanks again.

An article from July 2005, ie. before most of these claims were refuted. Uh huh. Think we'll just dismiss that one out of hand and move on.



A wikipedia page showing that the controversy exists. Um OK. You realize this was already obvious to anyone reading this thread, including, I might add, from the post where I asked you to prove your assertions? How does this help your case, exactly?



Yes, see, when I first challenged you to back that particular claim, I even referred to this quote and how it had been discussed out of context ad nauseam. I gave you a link to a Virginia Tilley article (reply #61 from this thread: https://forums.galciv2.com/310166/page/3)... did you not read it? As you can plainly see, he did not threaten to "bring about the end of the world", as you claimed he did, nor did he threaten to destroy Israel. The article I provided you goes over this in some detail. I suggest you actually read it this time.



Well, let me know when you're ready to start debating it, then.



Yes, because you have no proof to back your assertions. So withdraw them, sir.

Why do you want to believe it is true so badly? What would it take to prove to you that it is not true? There is no evidence. Nada. The CIA disputes it, and even some of the hostages are saying that he wasn't one of the hostage-takers, but, hey, some guy named SpacePony on the internet has faith that it was him, so it must be true!

Thank you to the ppl who've pvt. msg. me and given me karma regarding my postings. I didn't think my words would be particularly interesting and I'm very grateful for your responses. Thank you for taking the time to write, to inquire and comment. In China, we sometimes get the feeling that people outside don't make enough effort to find out more about us - instead relying on Bill O'Reilly, Keith Oberman and Dan Rather as gospel. I think the rest of the world is pretty uninformed about China. I also think China does a terrible job of communicating in English about itself.

Act23456, I can't claim to be the 'real' China, or a China expert - just one guy posting thoughts from a computer - and I hope my words are useful.

To share some thoughts that I've written in some of the pvt. messages:

Myth 1: If I write something on the internet which is disparaging about China, I will immediately be rounded up, shot and forcibly castrated.

I've seen this written so many times in western press, sometimes China should be renamed "The Matrix". I don't know whether the government devotes a bazillion secret agents to read emails, blogs and websites every second. But how's this (in bold to catch all the filters, firewalls and special agent programs)

Communism is not always the perfect government for society. There are some things that we should learn from Democracy. Within the Chinese Communist party, there are unfortunately some government officials who are corrupt, who embezzle, who are not looking after the common people's interests and we should make attempts to bring these people to light.

If you never hear from me again, then I've been eaten by a big Communist red guard Chairman Mao monster. OR, I will post another game to the Metaverse tomorrow and life will continue as normal.

Myth 2: Tian Men Square shows that even today, China is an oppressive backward regime in which human rights are abused.

You'll find few people who will say that the Tian Men Square event of 1989 was a good thing. Any time there is rioting, soliders shooting, students getting hurt and killed - it's TERRIBLE. And we accept it was a terrible thing and many people did many bad things.

And what do we do with our mistakes? We learn. We learn to deal better with problems - to engage solution finding before things come to a head. We do our very best to make sure such things never happen again.

The students of 1989 were largely from the top two universities in China. These universities are the feeders to the Communist Party and Chinese government. It is highly probable that the students of 1989 are now middle-ranking officials of the government. What better way to evolve and improve than have the very people caught up in that disaster to be leading the way forward in the future?

Also, accepting that 1989 was a terrible time, let's recognise that 1989 was not yesterday. Some other things that happened in 1989 in the US and around the world:

1. George Bush Senior took over from Ronald Reagan to become president of the USA.
2. Salman Rushdie publishes the Satanic Verses
3. The Soviet Union (which still existed then) pulled out of Afgahnistan
4. Time Inc. and Warner Brothers merge to form Time Warner.
5. Rain Man wins best picture at the Academy awards.
6. Hulk Hogan defeats Randy Savage at Wrestlemania to become WWF (as it was called then) champion.
7. The Simpsons premiers on FOX (I note there's a thread on Stardock talking about how long wil the Simpsons go. Do we remember when the Simpsons BEGAN???)

Today, if you talk about Simpsons premiering, Hulk Hogan or George Bush Snr. being in power, that's a lifetime ago. But Tian Men Square still happened yesterday. I've seen the 'tank guy'. The WORLD has seen the 'tank guy'. Every time China pops up on CNN or BBC, you'll see the Great Wall, Chairman Mao and the 'tank guy'. We know it was a bad bad time. And we have had a lot of good good times too. Today, Tian Men Square is where couples hold hands and kiss, young parents push strollers with their baby and school children celebrate world environment day. It's not quite as 'permanently stained with the blood of matyrs' as one might think.

I guess sometimes I feel frustrated in the way you might feel if everytime you see the US on the news, you saw pictures of Lakota indians being shot by cowboys or african american slaves picking cotton in plantations.

Myth 3. China likes producing low quality, dangerous, poor hygeine materials.

I agree that if you pay for low quality, you get low quality. China, in the past, has targetted the 'cheap is better' market. I read a report stating Chinese factories get paid about 0.0002 USD to make a barbie doll. That's 0.02 cents. Now to be upfront, I can't confirm the truth of that - and I'm sorry I can't provide a reference. I also don't know what barbies sell for in the US. But I do know that even if that's a lowball figure, let's say the real number is more like 2 cents a barbie, that doesn't leave a whole lot of profit margin to house a nice airconditioned factory, with health care, staff canteen etc.

In China, we know we need to improve our labour standards and quality. After all, WE are using those products too and these are OUR people! We don't want tainted medicine, barbies with lead or meat with steriods or our children working in dark mouldy caverns. And we also know that costs money. If our customers are not going to pay for that, we then struggle with how to improve standards at no additional expense. That goes for barbie or blood clot medicine or tyres or toothpaste.

The government is slowly implementing laws to improve working conditions. Spreading that over 1.3 billion people costs money and takes time. We've started improving things and they are better. By no means good...yes, we still have terrible sweat shops with awful conditions and employees not being properly paid... but it's better than it was yesterday.

Myth 4: Chinese people don't like sex

Every time there's a sex survey by FHM, Playboy or Penthouse, the usual canon is that Italians and French are orgasmic walking sex-bombs, Americans Canadians and Australians are slightly above average and Chinese people need road maps to know what goes where.

There are 1.3 billion of us. We didn't grow out of a cabbage patch or get delivered by a stork. We were in fact having so much sex that we would soon run out of land and food!

Oh... but Chinese people have sex purely for procreation, not pleasure - because they are conservative and it is their tradition. Where does this come from? What planet are we Chinese from if we, all 1.3 billion of us, engage in sex purely to breed? Why is this belief that we don't like sex so accepted as truth?

Just my perspective

I wish i was born 5 billion years later, so i could see humanity stretched across the universe.

@Goobi i have no idea what you're talking about.

Greeks and other European nations are at the top as sex bombs, but Americans are pitifully low on the scale. The only people who are lower are Japanese, who are set to start losing population in the next 20 years.

lol @ goobi

china didnt get so much ppl without having sex.........

Why are you trying so hard to "prove" it is not true? I will not withdraw my position that it the claim has merit. I will not withdraw that i beleave the current president of Iran is a dangerous person. what proof do you have to back your asscrtions that he is not a dagerus peorson, can you prove that the Iranian government is not backing Hamass? that it is not tranning insurgents in Iraq? That it is not involved in terrorit activities around the globe?

Umm sounds like your talking about the republicans



I saw him just this morning, oh wait, that was our vice president Dick Cheney, disregard..




We do, its al Sharpton and his ilk crying for fourty acres and a mule





I have never heard a better reason spoken as to why we in america should thank labor unions for what they did for us! It was they (the unions) that brought about the positive changes.




Ok, I am going to have to come visit you in China so that you can line upa few women and disprove this one for me! for this one I MUST have first hand evidence in order to refute it!  

Spacepony - you got me with the Al Sharpton reference. I try to keep abreast of international politics and figures, but had not heard of Rev. Sharpton before and had to Google him. I take it he is very famous in the US - we have not heard of him here in China. Well, I haven't anyway.

Regarding labour unions, it is a beginning movement here in China. Our unions are not strong - and we are constantly criticised by the international companies here when we attempt to unionize who see it as an attempt at protectionism. Some of the greatest opponents to labour unions here are Kentucky Fried Chicken, McDonalds, WalMart and Carrefour who say that unions are just the Chinese government's way of secretly taxing international corporations.

Regarding China and sex, I learned a new word the other day which might be appropriate - I believe the term is 'pimp'? As in, 'someone who can help you engage in scientific research about China's attitude towards sex'?