I already wrote my response in SINs forum.

https://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/307025/page/4


The key I want to mention is: mod tools.

Late to the party, as usual, but here are my two credits on subscriptions;


Hell. No.



Someone above put it well that we'd have a problem with some people having this version of the game, and other people having that version of the game, etc...but also, it's like Magic: The Gathering was for me when I was a teenager. I had fun with the game when it first came out, but quickly lost interest in it when I didn't have the money to buy new cards every week. I hate games that the the only way you can stay afloat is by buying the latest pieces with shiny bells and go-faster stripes.

Also, one you start a subscription software, you are committed to it. You need to keep coming up with new stuff so that people keep buying it...eventually, you're just adding features for the sake of adding features. Again, see Magic: The Gathering, version 347, part two, The Attack of the Cute Fluffy Bunnies, Wastelands Edition.



I would much rather see a game get patches, updates, expansions and then reach it's logical conclusion. Sometimes, it's time to let go and move on to the next thing. Like a kick-ass fantasy game. Or GalCiv3.

Develop good modding tools then just leave it to the gamers.

One thing I'd be interested in seeing is a company willing to publish the better community produced mods and share the revenue with the creators (perhaps after the active development cycle is ended). There's *already* some very good stuff put out for most moddable games even when people are doing it completely for free. Imagine what might turn up if the modders had at least the *potential* for some financial reward at the end of it? 1000 heads are better than 1.

From the business perspective, this seems a very low risk way to bring in some extra cash. Development and testing are essentially free (bar some minor tidying up once you decide to bring a mod on board). Another advantage; every time you need to find new staff, you have a pool of people for whom you already know how they perform working on *your* games!

I refuse to pay for mods. That is... that's shady, that's what that is.

This is going to be the 4XFPS game I told you guys to make, right?

"I refuse to pay for mods. That is... that's shady, that's what that is."

That's a pretty common attitude, which I've never understood. Why do you feel that way?

I know that a lot of people feel that way because mods are (generally):

1.) something that most people offer for free in the community spirit.
2.) designed by a third party, and often without the same quality control as the base product
3.) offered as a "money grab" only.


This is not to say that any of those things are accurate, but it is a common feeling on the matter.

A lot of people I've seen comment on the subject seem *fundamentally opposed* to paying for mods. To them, it's not just a question of quality - they would not even be willing to pay for a mod that was *far superior* to the original game.

As I see it, it's added content which somebody has put a lot of their time into. I don't expect the original game for free. I don't feel *entitled* to receive mods for free. Lower quality is to be expected and can be reflected by much lower prices (although in some exceptional circumstances, the mods are on a par with the original game. There's a few NWN mods in particular like that out there) I think the industry has lost a huge amount of creativity and originality now that creating a game is such a mammoth and costly process. Modding seems to me to be a great way to bring that partially back. It enables anybody with modest computer skills to join in the process. Even Galciv's modding tools, which are very modest, could be used to create a game with a very different feel.

I actually thought Oblivion might be heading toward a model like this, but unfortunately they tried to rip people off with massively overpriced junk mods instead (maybe that game's even a major reason so many people dislike the idea?)

GameX is Demigod.

 

On the opinion of free mods\features:
To quote Heinlein: There's no such thing as a free lunch
Development costs money.

I applaude Stardock for questioning the standard model.
I know of several examples of different delivery mechanisms for new features

Community patch for Age of Wonders: Shadow Magic
This was an effort by the players to revive gameplay
Fall from Heaven mod for Civ 4
Civ 4 was built to allow this. This is just one good example
Second dev teams building modules for NWN1 and NWN2 costing $5-$10
NWN was built to allow this.

I guess my suggestion is to build games intended to be expanded by a community or other development shop. While, GalCiv supports modding, I doubt it was built as open as Civ 4 or NWN.

You could require groups that receive payment for develoment kickback to SD. Those that did it for "free" would not need to kickback to SD. Ick...enforcing this would be painful. You'd probably be better off not requiring a kickback at all just to avoid the potential legal trouble.

Personally, I'd pay 5-10 dollars for a microexpansion to a game I really enjoyed.

Galen

Good. I was hoping it was.

My thoughts on the subscriptions aspect are that most people won't want to do it . . . at first. Maybe once it becomes established, then the knee-jerk reaction will go away.

I have no issue with an optional subscription update system provided that critical patches still come out to fix bugs and major issues. But if what you're really talking about is a loooooooong term commitment, I don't think subscriptions would work. You would be forced to continue to develop significant content over a long period of time when ideas may not be flowing. Plus, what about major engine developments. Part of the current model is that game engines are overhauled or a new one is developed specifically to allow for better/indepth/whatever gameplay and graphics.

Microtransactions seems to me the best (safest?) model for both the devs and the consumers. No one is forced to buy them and devs aren't forced into making them every month or so. If you enjoy the game as is, then you don't have to buy it, but if you want that sweet feature set or graphical update, then you plunk down the $5 or $10. In a way, expansion packs are already large-scale microtransactions.

The only thing I see myself subscribing for is multiplayer. I don't want to, but if there were added features and interesting things going on in the multiplayer aspect of a game, then I would pay to play. But my thoughts on this are very vague right now. Of course, GalCiv needs online multiplayer first, so we're really talking about GalCiv III here.

Microtransactions could work, but the last thing I want to see is for this to turn into Xbox Live. Horse armor and all that. They tried to sell it on the PC, and it was quite the failure. The customer-gouging that is EA's stance on microtransactions doesn't quite work on the PC. Perhaps I'd pay if it were a justifiable value, but if you expect us to pay for a reskin, you can forget it.

I think it could be manageable. Look at the NWVault for example...add in a cost to download and it could work pretty much as is. I think you'd need to require registration using the serial code of the game in question to ensure feedback can't be artificially generated by unscrupulous sellers (and to further deter pirates who will then miss out on access to mods). Let the alternative developers set whatever price they like, including free, or a nominal minimum if necessary to cover server fees, and allow supply and demand to rule. As long as you're not too greedy about the cut, I think the vast majority of modders would use the official site, if for no other reason than it's the most likely way to boost their download numbers and income, so you don't have to waste time and money chasing people down for violating T&Cs.

The other big advantage of the developer running the download site is that you can feasibly have (micro)microtransactions. Users could buy tokens for x dollars of downloads. Modders accumulate credit on their account with each download which can be cashed out once certain minimums have been achieved. With a system like this, it's actually realistic to charge tiny amounts without having it all swallowed by admin and cash handling fees. 20,000 downloads (easily achieved by the very best NWN mods. Some have in excess of 100K) at 25 cents a piece is a nice chunk of change for something undertaken as a hobby, and how many people are so cheap they wouldn't consider a quarter to be value for money?!

This model is aimed more at RPGs, I must say, but there have also been a number of outstanding mods for various strategy games over the years.

I enjoy modding, but it's just a bit too much work for zero monetary reward. If there was at least the *possibility* of cash (sink or swim on the quality of the work!), I'd be much more likely to follow through with ideas and/or the tedious business of polishing up personal use mods for community release. The community's probably not missing much in my case, but I'm sure there must be plenty of people out there with a similar attitude but vastly more talent!

I for one would never pay for a mod. That's shady, and lazy.

I absuletely agree on this. After a game is done, you shouldnt have to add mayor features to it anymore, and you can let it go. Especially if the last version of the game/expansions has an intrigate map-editor, and even better mod-editor.

However, I think a running and existing company, should never really relinquish patching of any kind. Simply to balance out certain factors, and better, remove certain bugs which always be lingering around. Oldstatesman pointed out perfectly how annoying bugs can be. Bugs seriously make you quit a game in rage.

In a company's view, while they won't see any immediate recompense in actual value of putting any effort into patching games, any company will be able to see this in the long run.
If there are consistent bug-fixes, till a certain point where the game is "bug-free", a game lifespan will increase dramatically, resulting in more sales of that product, and far better a very happy public. A company can make a very good name, and therefor will sell future enterprises more easily.

Alot of companies use the one-day fly approach. They release a game, patch it once or twice, and let it go. This all based on the assumption, the game will sell itself, and will live very happily ever-after in this world. WRONG!

A good example is E.A. They release a game, and let it go. Maybe throw in an expansion or 2, but never bother much about patches. One of the reasons, why I always hesitate in buying games made by E.A. While it gets harder and harder lately to dodge it.

Every company should take an example of Blizzard though. Blizzard hasnt got much titles in all the years it has been a company, but every single title has got so much attention, before and after the launch of the game, that they got a huge group of supporting fans. Again, you want this as a company. Because whenever you will release a title, it WILL sell out on the release day. And you barely have to run a selling-strategy, since your company's name and reputation is the selling-strategy.

"I for one would never pay for a mod. That's shady, and lazy."

You said that already. *Please* explain why. I'm interested! Especially "lazy"...how does that come into it?! Edit: actually, the shady part doesn't make much sense either!

Something that provides you with another, say, 20 hours of entertainment isn't even worth 25 cents?

I think I'll have to think on this for a while. I missed my sleep last night, so hopefully I make as much sense out there as I do in here.

I can think of two examples that might be worth a look as to what happened under the hood.

Starcraft: I still play it. I have friends that won't even touch video games anymore saying they waste too much time; but still play it. A friend of mine just bought the game and expansion again the other day because his disc was ruined and he wanted a real one. Why is this game still being purchased? played? Many people associated with the game seem to like this company.

Silent Hunter III: Ubisoft really screwed this one up. The game isn't even playable in many people's opinion until you install one of the free mods made by players, some of which completely dwarf the original game in file size. It is still being actively and heavily modded, and played with a devoted following. Why is this game still being played? modded? Most people associated with the game seem to despise this company. The folks that make many of these mods have received many donations,though none is required to get or play the mod.

Clearly it isn't just a bunch of devoted fans caring the game along, or a bunch of modders with way too much time on their hands. What would these guys be willing to play for?

I'll think about it and get back to you as to your OP.

Just my two cents

I would not do subscriptions for games period. I prefer the old way of buy a game for a one of price and buy the expansion packs. Usually when the time comes I do move off a game when I had enough.

Saying that I would buy a content patch for a one of fee for each content pacth if it has enough to justify it.

On that note I would expect patches that fix bugs or balance the game out to remain free and would not consider paying for them.

I do have to admit why stardock has done a great job with galciv2 and expansion packs it is getting to be an old product in comparision to alot of other games from different developers and there is only so far you can keep a game going before people move on.

This expansion pack has added plenty of content to play with but I can't see everyone playing this game for to many years now. I think it is just better to patch it up and retire it but thats just my opinion.

I have to admit now I would like to see a new galciv 3 built from scratch with a whole new AI and 3D engine which takes into account high end hardware for those who have high hardware as well as low end hardware.

Here's another 2 cents worth.

It would be sad to see support for GalCiv2 fade away. I'm a retired programmer myself and I know that decisions have to be made. That's the way it works.

There is a GalCiv3 (way out there somewhere). That's both hopeful and scary. It's coming (maybe), but will it generate the same excitement when (if) it gets here as you now have with GalCiv2? So many wiz/bang follow up products turned out to be huge duds because by dropping the continuity they lost what made the original unique. Sort of like "Here's our new improved cathedral bell. You are going to love it. It's bigger and it's made out of lead!"

GalCiv2 is a good game, a very good game with a devoted fan base. You have the web site going full blast, you seem to listen (more or less) to what the fans have to say, you slip them a few fixes, tweaks and expansions every now and then. Keeps them excited. Again, sort of like throwing slabs of meat into a pool of sharks, then standing back to watch the resulting frenzy. I'd hate to see that go away.

Your expansions have been great. Other game companies will issue tweaks and call them expansions.

You put a different spin on it. You call them expansions when in fact they are major revisions. You sly dogs!!! Trying to pull the wool over our eyes, are you? It won't work, you know.

It would be nice if you could keep this product going (somehow). You certainly have the talent. By keeping the continuity going into the future the product might never die. What a cash cow for Stardock. Why, I bet you could be to software developement what Rocky was to film. Where did they stop anyway, was it Rocky_XXVI?

That's my 2 cents.

Two words:

"Horse Armor."

Mods are free. That is an axiom of PC gaming. That is one of the major incentives to BE a PC gamer.

The second we try to cash in on modding, we are dropped to the level of the lowlifes who subscribe to Xbox Live.

The biggest problem with the world is that people are extremely shortsighted and don't think beyond the next minute. Let me explain this to you.

Many / most games release map editors with their games. This has been standard practice since around 1996. In addition to SDK mod tools or general customization. The foundations of a mod. Releasing the very tools used to make the game costs the developer / publisher nothing. As a result, people use these tools to make free mods.

Now first of all, ignoring how absolutely idiotic it is to pay a developer for SOMEONE ELSE'S CREATION who isn't even an employee, why don't you think about what happens once someone successfully capitalizes on modding?

That's right, mod tools WILL GO AWAY. EA already stopped releasing map editors because they can SELL new maps instead. The PC crowd has managed to hack old map editors into working, but the point is that once money can be made, there will no longer be a 'free' component to any of it.

Everything else you've described absolutely stinks of the money-grubbing customer-abusing that has saturated consoles online. We are not consoles, nor are we idiots who are going to pay $5 for a reskin of a horse, or a 'microexpansion' that is just a few prefabricated rooms in an underground lair.

I'll close with a semi-applicable quote from one of the best games ever made:

"They'd have replaced his whole body if it'd have improved performance. If that's how you judge a man -- by performance -- then eventually it's not about people, but upgrades, versions, functionality..."
"All I know is we could use a few mechs for ops like this."
"Soon as we buy into the cult of the machine, we're just like them."

There is a world of difference between a mod that is just a reskin and what Frogboy is talking about. He says, "An enhanced economic engine, updated graphics, new diplomacy options, a more serious metaverse system." That is not just a mod. The best way to describe it would be a mini expansion.

Subscription fees don't work well for games other than MMO's. Practically every online gamer has experience with MMO's and they expect a lot of content, constant updates, etc. if they are willing to pay a subscription fee.

Micropayments are probably the way to go. People are getting used to the concept of micropayments. There are a lot of MMORPG players in the US who don't like the concept of micropayments, but it is extremely popular in other markets. In addition, XBox Live is based on the concept of micropayments.

There are other examples of micropayments in PC gaming, although I'm not sure how successful they have been. I vaguely remember Neverwinter Nights having modules that users could purchase.

Uranium, try reading my post again. You have totally misunderstood it.

"Now first of all, ignoring how absolutely idiotic it is to pay a developer for SOMEONE ELSE'S CREATION who isn't even an employee"

Under the scheme I suggested, you're paying the *creator of the mod*. The developer takes a small cut as incentive/reward for creating the modding tools in the first place.

"why don't you think about what happens once someone successfully capitalizes on modding?

That's right, mod tools WILL GO AWAY."

If someone successfully capitalizes like I suggest, the mod tools are likely VASTLY IMPROVE as companies realize there's money to be made that way!

"the point is that once money can be made, there will no longer be a 'free' component to any of it."

Why the hell *should* there be a free component? How many other aspects of your life do you expect goods and services to be provided to you gratis? If you think it's overpriced, don't buy it! It's that simple.

Mod tools are a way to help create a community that will increase the longevity of a game along with helping support a fanbase for further games. Creative Assembly have explicitly stated this as being a part of their business model . . . and, frankly, the Total War games are better off because of it.

The Total War mods are great. Also those for the Silent Hunter subsims which are spectacular,

Once again, Xbox Live. Horse Armor was worthless too but the sheep bought it up, and now EA is charging for better guns. If you can charge for mods, prepare to find every ridiculous little mod with a pricetag on it. Prepare to watch my utorrent.exe become my most used program.

And you missed the point.

If a modder is able to make money selling his mod, and the developer only gets a 15% kickback or something, how long do you think it's going to be until they just make their OWN mods and take 100% of it? Or they limit the mod tools so that 'official' mods are going to contain a shitload of stuff that is impossible to do without the crappy end-user SDK, so that they're simply better?

Modding is going to be free because it's been free. Why would I pay for something that people have been willing to do for free for over a decade? Hell even I've contributed to mods before.

If it's impossible to find a free mod for a game, I'm going to go find a game where the mods ARE free.

I'll say it one more time since you completely ignored it - free modding is one of the most important things PC gaming has going for it. Once you remove that, we're one step lower to the console-using slime.