MOO3 and a comparison

(:(
These are tears of joy. Maybe my 4X game playing days are not over after my Moo3 experience. I'm getting my copy tonight (pre-ordered at EB).

Once bitten, twice shy, don't they say? Well, I have to hope not, because I waited and waited for seemingly ages for MoO3...and was so disappointed. I tried as hard as I could to like that game, but to no avail, and eventually dragged my beaten carcass back to Civ3 for my TBS fixes.
I hope to pick up GalCiv tonight, or by the weekend at the latest, and maybe, just maybe, the hype this time will be more accurate.

Please?

I've only been playing a short time (I also gave MOO3 a fighting chance, and it's still on my HD just in case), but GalCiv has all the makings of a classic, particularly when you realize that Brad is devoting the next YEAR to continued development of the game! He's like Johan at Paradox in this way, so you absolutely *know* things can only get better.

GalCiv reminds me of the good-old days of strategy gaming in which the focus was on, well, STRATEGY! Sure, I have some niggling problems with the UI and such, but I bet you that not only will the UI functions improve over the months, but the improving AI and added goodies will make this a game you'll be glad you jumped on.

No no no...I think the MoO3 game was an excellent alpha test. I just think it just needs another few months of debugging and rewriting...oh, and better documentation.

Seriously, I do have hope that MoO3 will be a good game in the future, but at the moment it has too many bugs and quirks to be alot of fun. I think they rushed the game at the very end, and they probably shouldn't have released it when they did. My guess is that they were afraid of the backlash if there was yet another delay.

Personally, I don't think this game completely dominates MOO3 in all aspects, but then again I'm one of those freaks who actually liked Moo3.

Here are some things that annoy me so far about this game;

Diplomacy=While it certainly is nice to not have people declare war on you for no reason, I don't like the limited choices. It's either Yes or No. Also, I don't like the Diplomacy screen itself; Somehow the picture of whatever other race simply nodding at me isn't too exciting.

Trading=Once again, either Yes or No. I also wish that the deals themselves were more than just Good (Green) or Bad (Yellow); Maybe have yellow be a more risky trade, orange be 50/50 (maybe less), and Red be flat-out a bad deal.

Eh, I'm sorry if this seems a little hard on the game, but I just wanted to point out some things that annoyed me. I still love the game though!

I found very little diference between GalCivs leaders nodding and Moo3 leaders flailing their arms. After awhile I dont pay any attention to the visuals other to see the color of the background anyway.. Its what they SAY that matters to me; and GalCivs diplomacy text MEANS something. its not mindless garble. In my humble opinion there is no comparison between the two diplomacy models. In GalCiv you have one; in the other....well, you dont. In GalCivs trading you can at least pick what you want to trade, providing both have trade commodities. In Moo3 its trade or not; increase trade or not; how about even more trade or not. THAT seems limited to me. But, to each his own. Theres room for both though I like GalCIv much more than Moo3...and I didnt plan it that way.
Cheers.

The only thing I could say MoO3 would still top GalCiv on is Multiplayer and ship customization.

Right now I bought GalCiv direct and DLing it. But thanks to their own system I have to DL it through a 56K connection. I was hoping I could get a secure line to DL an ISO or something, but I guess not.

wampyre,

I'm not sure I understood you correctly, but in MOO3 you can choose what to trade -- it's just that you have to do a "counter-offer."

I'll probably pick up GalCiv today, even though I shouldn't be spending the money and my wife will probably get irritated. I really hope the diplomacy model in this game is deep, because I almost enjoy the diplomacy more than the war strategy. Diplomacy in MOO3 is somewhat workable, but most of the time there's no feedback to the user for why an empire decides to do something (like declare war on you). Please tell me this game's AI diplomacy is fluid, intelligent, and makes sense.

I do like MOO3 though, despite it's flaws. At least the AI attacks you now with the community mods to the AI scripts. I especially enjoy the ship design aspect and figuring out the best weapons loadouts for ships, and that's one this I'll miss not having in this game. I won't miss the extreme tedium of updating 20 ship designs every time I get a more advanced engine or armor though...it single-handedly makes MOO3 tedious as you can spend 50-60 percent of your playing time on that.

So for now I'm just trying to decide if GalCiv is worth the monetary risk. (and still trying to justify to myself spending $40 on a game with 1995-era sprite graphics).

I have played Moo3 and i have also played Galciv now. When Moo3 came out me and three of my friends was exalted and carried over our computors so we could play together. (We have booked the whole weekend)

After maybe ten hours we packed the computors in the car and watched a movie instead.

Now i have been playing GalCiv constantly for 12 hours, have forgotten to eat (i do have one gallon of Cola and lots of tobacco so...;)Just wanted to drop in here and post this before i go to sleep..

The game is super (i am a huge fan of CIV so its maybe therefore i am so excalted?)

Hehe. MOO3 definitely blew. Pun intended. There was a great game in there banging desperately on the glass screaming to get out. Some of the concepts I just absolutely adored, but the implementation covered them all up.

I am also pleased to report that I forgot to eat yesterday while Playing GalCiv. A couple hours would fly by and I'd realize I'd need to get some food after this turn. Repeat.

~SDC~

Sebadoh-I didnt relalize you could choose what to trade in Moo3. If you mean trading techs with counter offers and the like, Yeah I know that. But I thought the only trade options in the literal sense was trade agreement or improve trade agreement etc...there is no amount or item to trade. Maybe I missed something. I'll have to stop playing GalCiv and check it out again. (NOT!)In terms of what I did understand, the counter offers on techs etc: I thought you COULD do that in GalCiv.
I like Moo3 (really, but not as much as Gal.) I like the ship design but its no big thing for me not to have it. I DIDNT like designing a ship every other turn because of tech updates though. I have not yet used MODS so right now the AI in Moo3 is lame...I'm waiting for official patches for that.
I think you will like the diplomacy in GalCiv; it IS fluid, ever changing, based on events AND their own sneaky sob agendas which you dont know about but can surmise if you are watching carefully. It DOES make sense. And it will kick your ass on the right setting.
DO NOT be concerned about graphics. They are sharp, colorful, and get the job done. Once the game draws you in (assuming you convince your wife not to go balistic and buy it) you will not worry about graphics.
Cheers.

Yep, I am a MOO3 refugee too, and so far I can already tell that I'm going to get a lot more mileage out of GalCiv - at least for the forseeable future.

The two games are comparable but different enough that I think each has a lot to offer; it's just that MOO3 has a lot to offer in the *future* somewhere, once it gets out of its "public alpha" phase. In many ways, MOO3 was the best thing that could have happened to GalCiv.

GalCiv has restored my faith in the genre. Be interesting to see what the modders and expansions do with the core as time passes.

I don't know whether GalCiv's diplomacy is what people would call "deeper", but once you have the Universal Translator, it makes a hell of a lot more sense than some of the MoO3 diplomatic messages you get.

I quite enjoyed MoO3 while I was playing it. But considering I just played GalCiv for about 8 hours straight in my very first game, and I'm already contemplating strategies for the next time, I'd say it's a lot better.

~SDC~

MOO3 is BetaWare or WishWare, which ever way you want to look at it. If it ever lives up to its' grandiose design criteria, it will then possibly be a great game. Not having a Mid-Turn Save routine is a total bomb IMHO. To design a huge space strategy game deliberately without a Mid-Turn Save routine borders on Idiocy!

As an added thought, I really wonder whether MOO3 was released prematurely to try to beat GalCiv to the punch, in order to garner more sales as the first release, rather than as a sloppy leftovers release!

I was actually anticipating both MoO III and GalCiv. I tried like hell to like MoO III, even spent 50-60 hours trying to do so. That damn viceroy system, I turned it off, yet, on occasion, things would still be changed by the AI. I did like the ship design, tho. And I miss that in GalCiv. Altho I wasn't misled, I knew there was no tactical combat in GalCiv. I really like GalCiv. My only true gripe is the random events can be a bit overly powerful in their ability to cause major havok. Oh, and a bit of dislike for the cultural % changing on reloads, and even starting over on the 12 month count (except when it is at 12, that one works properly)for a cultural victory.

Elf

GalCiv was actually pushed back a month to avoid competing with MOO3. MOO3 was indeed rushed out the door, but not due to pressure from GalCiv.

~SDC~

My 2 ducats

I too tried to like MOO3. I stil hav eit and I am praying for a patch. But I doubt it will be that dramatic. Moo3 really has a dry, dry flavour to it -- very sterile that prevents me from getting into the game. I dont need fancy graphics myself but the MOO3 ship combat takes soo much fun out of design that its useless. Moreover lets try and remeber that ther eis almost no real AI. Altogether it feels too much like spreadsheet, even 10x more than BOTF than a game. I applaud QS for soem really good ideas but it seems so haphazrdly thrown together that i dont hold up that much hope. I am sad. I too was looking forward to it.
That's life.

I would also be more optimistic about MOO3 if it wasnt for the draconian enviroment at the MOO3 forums. Its really becoming polarized and dominated by the rapid defence of all thatis MOO3 holy and the Modders. While hats off to the modders; its become such a juvenile enviroment in some respects that you almost have to let yourself be sucked into that fanboi mentality to get any non-flame discussion on the game. I have seen so many arabid attacks on people who even mention GC now that its pathetic.

I am not expecting Galciv to be MOO3. Indeed, i am expecting a diffrent take (a la civ or EU) Civ I and II were fun for me so i hope to get the same amount play out of this game. yes MOO3 and GC are diffrent games; but MOO3 by any standard is very sub-par fare right now. Ultimately it wont be those promoting both of the games that will be the gauge its succes but rather the number of copies that are still on HDs and being played.

dawg

MOO3 is deeper and bigger than GalCiv.

It goes far beyond just ship customization.

I don't have all day to explain everything to you kiddies, but here's a few features that MOO3 has that GalCiv doesn't.

1) Ship design and customization. This feature extends in a very complex and detailed way to include different weapon and defense systems, that require various tactics and strategies of task force creation. All these elements are factored in during actual combat.

2)Planetary composition. In MOO3, planets are very complex entities. There are so many more factors involved, ie; gravity, topology, fertiliy, etc, all in varying degrees, on any given planet. Planetary development is a game in itself, which needs to be mastered to focus and balance resource output.

3)Star Lanes. These give the game such a fine sense of tactical and strategic focus, and depth. Like ranks, files, and diagonals on a Chess board. It allows MOO3 a great, ongoing sense of tension and imbalance. Elements necessary for a true struggle.

Once MOO3 AI is patched (GalCiv needs some patch fixes, as well), the complexities of the game design will come in to focus for the people who do not see them now.

On a final note, I too, enjoy GalCiv a great deal, but I am out of patience for people who, because a certain game might not be their cup of tea, choose to hang out bashing it, just to act like wise guys.

Given the juvenile response above .. I rest my case. Exactly the very offensive attitude on the part off MOO3ers i noticed. Thanks for giving me proof! calling people kiddies is just as much a wise guy thing to say!

On your points
1) ship customization: whoppeee doo. Since PD is broken and AI is worth squat ..who cares what ist equipped with. It doesnt take rocket scientist to build shipt to kill a billion troop transports

2) yes plaentary AI is indeed complex soo complex its a headche. i wouldnt be so bad if the planetary AI actaully didnt keep messing things up AND if it was documented what everything does. Right now its so hit and miss. besides who would bother about the niceties of planetary management since the game is designed to let the AI mismanage that.

3) star lanes. Actually i think thsi hurts the game.. this results in less tactical finesse; it takes no militray skill to fill up bottle necks.

If you feel you have to insult or take cheap shots to prove your point its likely its no point at all. I also notice you havent addressed what i listed as its big shortcomings; including NO AI!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

dawg

hey star--wrong forum. go back to the schoolyard, er I mean Moo forum.

Nice try guys, but read the above posts, from your replies, you obviously haeven't even read this thread.

It's all nothing but a bunch of MOO3 bashing.

You're not content just to like your game, you have to constantly bash something else.

your pablum doesnt wash here, star. We have all been there and done that and heard the drivel before. yawn. Dont go away mad okay?

Bashing is where you heap abuse on something that doesn't deserve it. Pointing out flaws in MOO3 to raise the market value of GalCiv is not. It's not empty complaining, it's a good service to someone thinking to buy a space startegy game, to help that person make the right choice. I wish I had heard what was wrong with MOO3 before I blindly went out with $50 believing all the delays were to provide the most bug-free release possible. What a crock that turned out to be. GalCiv is a much simpler game, but after my painful experience with the MOO3 interface and game mechanics, I welcomed the simplicity. And GalCiv's AI is a real challenge, and the diplomacy feels real. I haven't returned MOO3, but I have uninstalled it until there's an official patch. Modding is great, but I don't want to have to rely on some guy in his mother's basement to fix a game I bought for $50 not a month ago. GalCiv may not be the whizz-bangyiest game I've ever played, but then after a solid night of playing it I don't go to bed wondering if I had fun playing it or not. It's FUN, if nothing else. It too has some minor wrinkles, but I have much more confidence getting the problems addressed quickly by stardock than I do with that other hack-shop which actually had a relatively large budget and 4+ years to work with.

I've got to agree. I have spent many, many hours trying like hell to like MOO3, but until such time as it undergoes a pervasive AI patch, I am not spending any more time on it. There is a shining pearl buried in that mess, and I hope like hell that the clumsy dev team has the stones to get it perfected.

It's really not fair to compare the two games too closely - they have wildly different approaches to the genre, and I see no point in coming down solidly for one or the other. If you only have the cash for one, I simply can't recommend that you go with MOO3 (at this point) because of all the "issues" that are currently plaguing it. :notsure: