Leto Silvermane Leto Silvermane

Tactical Fleet Combat is Required!

Tactical Fleet Combat is Required!

The game is a non-starter without tactical starship battles like Master of Orion, Ascendancy, Imperium Galactica, and most other turn-based space strategy games.

The fleet battles are where the action is! You guys skipped the hard part of developing the game and focused on the easy window-dressing part.

Having technologies like turbo-phasers is weak without being able to see them fire in combat.

Ok, so you took the easy road and the game is only half done. You've got money coming in to the company, so here is my suggestion. When two ships engage in combat, bring up a new tactical combat screen where they duke it out. That way, combat can be added without impacting the rest of the game. If you are able to implement half of the combat features of Master Of Orion II, that will be good enough. Otherwise, the game will only appeal to die-hard 4X fans and even they will get tired of it soon.

Hope this feedback helps,
Leto
3,828 views 114 replies
Reply #101 Top
thats count not could :/

~SDC~
Reply #102 Top
I'm just happy running my stack of ships up to the AI's stack of ships, disbanding the fleet, and choosing which ship attacks and when it's no longer viable in that fight so as to move on to the next one.

If the combat were like MoO2's, I can't say I'd enjoy it.

~SDC~
Reply #103 Top
Leto clearly seems to have some biases ... as do we all. But some people are better at keeping their biases at arm's length. FWIW, I tend to disagee with Leto in a few key areas.

He prefers flashy visuals over solid game design. To me, a good game is a good GAME, even if it has Pong-quality graphics.

Leto seems to belong to that subset of gamers that expect every game to conform to their preconceptions. Another subset of gamers look forward to a new game generating new conceptions.

Whereas Leto seems to think that programming time is an infinite resource, I know better. The game designers must decide what they can accomplish, and what they cannot. Over-reaching to add in eye-candy helps no one. Adding a tactical layer to the game will certainly consume programing time. Sounds to me like the programing team has decided they cannot afford the time to attempt everything at once. Sounds wise, to me.

Not everyone is gonna like every game. Sorry you were disapointed Leto, but that's life. Time to move on to a differnt offering, I'd say.
Reply #105 Top
yeah... colonization was an awsome game. Trade your fur at "La Rochelle", attack the Mayas.
I still have it on my pc! :)
Reply #106 Top
I just picked up GalCiv and I'm really impressed. Gameplay is excellent, the events are interesting and as advertised, the AI kicks ass and takes names. That being said, I would love to see some ship design capability and a more-involved combat model.

I was/am a huge fan of MOO2 (avoided MOO3 based on what I heard), despite some of its balance problems and some of the weaknesses with the AI. Space combat in MOO2 could be dramatic and intense. And ship design was probably my favorite part of that game, producing the next generation of ship, and equipping them with specific armaments for specific tasks (especially the funky weapons like inertial destabilizers). Combining the strengths of MOO2 to the strengths of GalCiv, if done well, would to me, at least, result in the perfect game.

Of course, I realize that you can't just drop MOO2's tactical game into GalCiv (pretty much a mini-game within the main game). And the more generalized nature of ships pretty much prohibits a verbatim copy of the MOO2 ship design feature. Not to mention the code, art and testing required to add such extensive new features.

However, despite these challenges, I do believe that well-throughout design and combat improvements are possible for GalCiv. I don't want an inappropriate level of detail (say what is found in the rpg Traveler), calculating weapon arcs, hull volumes and power output ratings of reactors. Instead, I want to adjust what is already there. Alpha Centauri, while having a similar combat system to GalCiv, was able to provide a decent unit design feature. In GalCiv, a similar ship design screen could allow players to design ships, including any or all of the following:
a) choosing a picture for the ship
b) choosing a name for the ship design
c) adjusting the attack/defense/movement ratings for the ship, increasing/decreasing the cost accordingly (rather than deal with specific weapons and arcs, you could deal with things in more general batteries)
d) add special features to specific ship classes. For example, you could produce an 'Aegis' ship that adds to the defense ratings of the stack. Or you could add a targeting computer that adds +1 to the attack roll (but not over the maximum attack rating). Or you could add 'stealth' which reduces the range that a ship can be detected at.
e) weapon ranges - you don't need a tactical map to do weapon ranges. Rather, weapon ranges could translate into an initiative system, so that longer ranges can result in a 'first strike capability'.
f) defining weapon and defense classes. Each ship would have at least weapon class (laser, missile, particle. etc), and for an additional cost could purchase extra class types. Having different weapons and defenses, though costly provides flexibility versus different foes. So a ship could have an attack of 6 (laser, missile) indicating that it has both laser and missile weapons. Defenses also can have classes (armor, jammers, point defense laser, shields). These classes have different properties. For example, lasers might do less damage (-1 hp), but have few effective countermeasures. Missiles might do more damage (+1 hp), but a ship with jammers gets +2 to defense.

Enhanced ship combat could involve the following:
a) allowing each ship in a stack to choose its target in a defending stack, especially if some of the ship design features discussed above are implemented
b) selecting a role for each ship. For example a ship set to 'harry' increases its defense but lowers its potential damage as it refuses to engage closely. Conversely, a ship set to 'assault' increases its attack, but lowers its defense due to its aggressive stance.
c) allow ships in a stack to aid each other, so that task force creation becomes important
d) be a strictly optional system - I don't want to bother every time two scouts run into each other. But I do care when the Drengin fleet tries to sack Earth.

Of course, it's still a lot of work to design, code and test. Still, I hope that the designers consider that many gamers enjoy combat and ship design. And I don't think that saying play Moo2 or Space Empires IV is the answer, because we also enjoy all the strengths that GalCiv already has. Good game design means that it doesn't have to be an either/or decision. I'm sure such added functionality would only increase sales for the game and its ultimate longevity. We don't want Starcraft or Homeworld action and clickfests. We want to manage our fights with the same care that we manage our colonies.
Reply #107 Top
I disagree with allowing targetted strikes to stacks.

It doesn't make sense to me.
I understand being able to say, go after that ship, but the opposing controller of that stack would by the same token be saying `defend that ship' and keep it behind other defenders...
Reply #108 Top
orangefruitbat,
Not gonna happen, I agree a SMAC style sytem would be cool, but saying 'it's still a lot of work to design, code and test' is a massive understatement. It would essentially break the A.I.

This game features one of the most impressive strategic A.I. I've seen, and it got there in part by not having to focus substantial dev time on tactical considerations. Really, it's still being improved to better utilize the tactical options already in the game. But considering GalCiv is a strategy game I think it was a good choice of emphasis.
Reply #109 Top
err, to be honest I have read only a part of the first page, but I too think that the game will be a better one if a more detailed combat module could be implemented.
Reply #110 Top
Ah well, I can dream. Still, since development for the game is going to continue for at least a year, you never know what's going to come out. Ok, there have been some pretty clear statements on this board, but a lot of it has been directed towards hostile postings and/or unreasonable requests.

When I first read about the game, I had serious reservations - it was clear that two things I really enjoy in a 4x game (ship design and tactical combat) were not going to be in GalCiv. One of things that convinced me that GalCiv would still be worth my time (in addition to the strong reviews that I read) was the promise of new content, features and support. I'm dying to see a roadmap of what future goodies are in store for us. And if there are resources available, I humbly submit that ship design and/or enhanced combat are worth the effort to develop.
Reply #111 Top
I, for one, actually prefer the fact that I don't have to design my own ships. Stardock has finally taken out the race to design the über-ship, the plague of MoO II. If I want a better ship, I research techs that improve it. No fuss, no muss, and no refiting required.
Reply #112 Top
Nicolas,
My thoughts exactly. It's a *strategy* game...
Reply #113 Top
I have nothing to add -- and nothing bad to say about Silvermane. This is a great game, and this thread has had me laughing almost to tears (futuristic C&C RTS, Sims researchers...ha, ha, ha) LOL Thanks guys, for providing a little well needed humor to a slow day at work.
Reply #114 Top
I have nothing to add -- and nothing bad to say about Silvermane. This is a great game, and this thread has had me laughing almost to tears (futuristic C&C RTS, Sims researchers...ha, ha, ha) LOL Thanks guys, for providing a little well needed humor to a slow day at work.