TA, the tech tree and the new races.

from GalCiv2 Forums
Ok i will keep this short and sweet and remember....IMHO.

I am not a fan of the new tech tree. Everything else about TA is awesome, but i find the tech tree changes too much for my liking. TA is not IMHO an expansion of DL...it is a variation. Two different games built on the same principle with much the same UI.

Now i certainly don't mean to rain on SD's parade, they have done a terrific job, geez...two expansions and many...many updates!!! Say no more. The new tech trees though....are just not my cup of tea.

To me the races are changed too much by the techs...their abilities, strengths and weakness are all different, and the races play very differently than in DL and DA. Understandably this is the intent, fine, i accept that, Kudos for making such a bold change to the game. Many are probably of the opinion that the tech trees are fantastic, again i accept that too, and i agree, but not for Galciv2. The tech tree and the races are, and here is that phrase again, IMHO, perfect for a "spin off" game to GalCiv2. Galactic Civilizations 2 - The Mirrored Universe...or something similar. I love the races in their original form and would love to see an expansion, TA in fact for those races.

Yes i have TA and have played it a lot and i understand that the Betas do not represent what the final release will be. but the tech tree will be the same. There is more to TA than the tech tree.

Now my question is, Given some support for the idea from the community, Stardock, would it be possible to have a toggle in TA for the new tech tree? Play with TA Tech tree or Play with DA tech tree.....Something that allows all the other fantastic content in TA to be played by the original GC2 races.

Does anyone else have the same reservations? I am really looking forward to playing TA but am also dreading having to use the tech tree.

Of course i know i could just play DA and not bother with TA, but it is after all bringing some fantastic new elements to the game besides the tech tree/race changes. It is these that have me keen on it's release.

At the very least Devs, would TA play if i copied and pasted the DA tech tree over the TA one?

Or could you guys give an indication on how much of TA will be backported into the DA 2.0 release.

Again this thread is not about slandering TA or SD in any way. The devs do a great job and i respect the effort everyone puts in. It's just that a little constructive criticism can be healthy when delivered respectfully.

Thanks guys.
Neilo.

13,709 views 21 replies
Reply #1 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Neilo,

I'm not sure I agree with you, although I understand your reservations. I've noticed that pretty much across the board the changes take the form of less morale boosts from researching tech in place of more +% weapons. And some of the new stuff available to every race - the Tulon Weapons Module or the Reinforced Hull Module (all cargo ships anyone?) really open up new play styles.

The biggest problem is how difficult it is to balance the new trees against each other, and the need to adjust play styles. There are still a lot of missing pieces to the new tech tree (fleet defense modules) and broken techs (temples of valor only offer a +2% soldiering bonus). The loss of Alignment specific techs - specifically the Mind Control Center being removed from several races makes all of those races a lot worse.

Or evil less inviting as a morale choice... but the Terrans can always go evil and clean house.

I like the variety of the new trees and the new challenge. The "right click to display data" has made the trade screen much more accessible. That being said, it feels to me like a lot of balancing still needs to be done.

~ Wyndstar
Reply #2 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Actually I love the new race tech trees, I think it does change the game a lot but for the better.

It means Races don't only start the game with unique advantages/disadvantages that are then overridden by tech. effectivley but rather their tech gives them different specialties through out the game. It's a brilliant addition IMO.

Also since this change really is the heart of TA if you don't like it I'd stick to DL. As for the idea of having the ability to toggle unique tech off I think it's probably only somethin 0.0000000000001% of users would want to use, (the uniques tech has generally been very, very well recieved) and would complicate matters for developing more race specific AI.

If you really wanted to do it, and must have the other TA features of course you could recreate the default tech tree and mod all races to use it yourself.

Anyway I don't think there will be much community support for your idea you could already customize all races to use the same tech tree in the final version if you wanted and the racial tech trees are most peoples favourite feature of the expansion.
Star Control: Origins
Reply #3 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Now my question is, Given some support for the idea from the community, Stardock, would it be possible to have a toggle in TA for the new tech tree? Play with TA Tech tree or Play with DA tech tree.....Something that allows all the other fantastic content in TA to be played by the original GC2 races.
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People asked for this very same toggle when DA came out for the espionage system. It didn't happen. TA's main selling point WAS these different tech trees. Everything else was bonuses.

I could live with the invasion screen being ported back, but just that. Everything else IMHO are too much expansion-specific (yes, even the new victory condition). The invasion screen was something people have wanted for a long time.
Reply #4 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
All the tech trees are in one folder, and they can be edited any way you want. It will be very easy to just copy a single DA-style tech tree to all the races, and you'll have what you're looking for.

The Super Abilities might need some tweaking, since they interact with the bonuses and deficits in the race-specific trees. But that should be easy to do also.

Me, I love the new race-specific trees. The expansion does exactly what a good expansion should do: make the game more challenging for people who have mastered the original game (if not in maximizing points, at least reaching the point where you win most of the time), and are starting to get a little bored with it. Before TA, I was drifting towards a single strategy I'd use with any race. I'd use the same order of buildings, same order of moving through tech research, adjusting only a little bit here and there to cope with changing conditions. Now, I have to get inside each race's "head" and play a different way with each one. It kicks me out of my old habits. Well, most of them... some still work.

(Edit:) One caveat: I don't know if the AI for each race will be customized for best use of their specific tech tree, or if each race is basically generic and can handle any of the trees equally well without being hardcoded for each tree. I suspect it's the latter, so custom races and custom tech trees can still work, and you'll still be able to force each race to use the old DA-style tree if you want to. Maybe the devs will comment on this, at some point.
Reply #5 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
That being said, it feels to me like a lot of balancing still needs to be done.
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For sure, the Thalans indeed i think need some work.

Also since this change really is the heart of TA if you don't like it I'd stick to DL. As for the idea of having the ability to toggle unique tech off I think it's probably only somethin 0.0000000000001% of users would want to use, (the uniques tech has generally been very, very well recieved) and would complicate matters for developing more race specific AI.
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I agree with you econundrum1, that it's very possible i am the only one not excited about the tech tree changes. I of course can just continue to play DA and not worry about TA. But SD has heard many, many positive comments about TA and how everyone likes it. Sometimes it's good to hear the other point of view, even if it is a small voice offering it.

TA's main selling point WAS these different tech trees. Everything else was bonuses.
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I guess that is perhaps true..i know I for one was never too excited about the tech trees, it was always the graphical improvements, the new ship modules, Immense galaxies, the various editors, MV tournaments, ship jewlery and the new victory condition that had me really keen to get this expansion. The changes to the tech tree were just another feature to me...not the feature.

Guess i will remain lonely out here on my branch....

Reply #6 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
The changes to the tech tree were just another feature to me...not the feature.
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I'm not looking forward to learning 11 different tech trees. I have enough problem with just one. I would probably make use of a toggle that allowed TA to be played with the original tech tree. However, I doubt that's something we'll ever see. I think as far as Stardock is concerned, unique tech trees are the feature. In any case, I expect that once I get past the learing curve, I'll appreciate the difference.

Reply #7 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
The 11 different tech trees aren't so different that you can't make sense of them. Upon playing each newly activated race, I took a few minutes to skim over their tech trees. They are often organized in a different structure, and there are many unique techs between races, but most of the old techs are still there, in much the same fashion as before. Hell, some of the races have almost the same tree as the terrans, plus and minus some unique spinoff technologies. The Korx, for instance, have almost the same setup as the terrans!

When it comes down to it, only a few of the races have tech trees that are utterly unfamiliar, like the Thalans, Iconians, and the Yor. For the most part, the changes aren't that hard to wrap your head around. Yes, each race plays far differently, the tech setups remain intuitive and easy to grasp.

Granted, that's quite different from being able to MASTER them immediately... certainly, certain dominant strategies will work for some races and not others. That's the point, though... the races are not just cosmetic tweaks plus a relatively inconsequential set of bonuses and a super ability, but are individually built for specific playstyles.

Besides, no one is making you learn all 11 of them! I've been trying to play every race as they've come out of the beta, and I still haven't given the Altarians or Krynn a try (or, really, the Torians, since they got a major update after I played them). Regardless, I've had a ton of fun with specific races, notably the Thalans and Iconians.

That said, if you really, REALLY wanted to give up the fantastic new tech trees, that would be quite easy to mod into the game. The tech tree editor they'll be shipping will let you create the tree, and then you can just assign it to every race. That'd be comparatively boring though... I seriously recommend you give the new tech trees a shot, it's a ton of fun to have your previous strategies turn on their heads!
Reply #8 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I love it.

I had become bored with DL and DA and hadn't played in a couple of months. TA has reinvigorated me for the game. I have had success playing with all the new trees and my greatest fear is that the future tweaks will change the game too much.

Late tweaks to previous releases were not always good imo and reduced my enjoyment in some cases
Reply #9 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Don't forget that TA is coming with tools to make it relatively easy to heavily modify the game. So anything you don't like you can change any time you like. They idea is to allow the community to decide the future of the game until, and even after, GC3.
Reply #10 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I like the changes, and see them bringing some freshness and variety to the game. The development of the different race tech trees would seem to be on a straight trajectory from the way GalCiv2 expanded upon GalCiv, where you could only play as the terrans. Most of us will probably work to become somewhat familiar with each race's tech tree, but then settle in on a favorite race to play most of the time. I agree, balance will be an challenge for the developers.
Reply #11 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Besides, no one is making you learn all 11 of them!
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And nor am i asking for any changes or deletions, nor am i complaining about their implementation, just offering a different point of view. :)

I have no problem learning the new races, in fact learning any new feature is half the fun of it, it just seems that the changes made, make the new races alike the old ones in name only, of course this could all change once TA is released.

Don't forget that TA is coming with tools to make it relatively easy to heavily modify the game. So anything you don't like you can change any time you like.
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And this is a great feature, though it has no purposeful use in the Metaverse, of which i play 90% of my games. I have already reserved myself to the decision that i will never play TA on the MV, it will be for sandbox games only.

Still, would not having a toggle to turn of new races be an interesting way to play TA? I would love to play immense galaxies with the DA races...it offers up new challenges in it's self, along with the new ship modules, without the need of the new tech tree.

At least could any Devs provide what if any of the TA features will be backported in to DA 2.0
Reply #12 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

I have no problem learning the new races, in fact learning any new feature is half the fun of it, it just seems that the changes made, make the new races alike the old ones in name only, of course this could all change once TA is released.
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All the races in DA were just clones of each other. Yeah, they got a few different penalties and bonuses, and had different super abilities, but none of that really made them all that different. They were all slight variations on the same race.

Now they come with a playstyle and character that matches their backstories.
Reply #13 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Guys, you will get no argument from me on what the new races are and how they are different from the DL/DA versions. I'm just not a fan of them.

I'm not being nasty or ignorant here, but pointing out to me what they do is missing my point, i appreciate what they bring to the game, i just happen to feel that the end result is too different from the game i like.

Simple as that, i agree with you guys that the changes do differ the races, and that they do create more of a challenge...an so on and so on....

My hope was that there were others who felt the same and as of yet had not spoken up, and that if it was at all possible that there may be check box to toggle playing with new races/techs or the DA versions.

I understood before posting the OP that the chances of anything like that actually happening were remote at best, but i thought i would still offer a differing opinion for SD to look at.

My other question though holds a great deal of relevance still, what will be introduced into DA 2.0 from TA, if anything at all?

Remember guys, im not tarnishing TA in any way, it's just not what i was hoping it would turn out to be.
Reply #14 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
My other question though holds a great deal of relevance still, what will be introduced into DA 2.0 from TA, if anything at all?
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It does seem that some of the new things from TA could be patched into DA. That is probably your only hope. I doubt you will ever see the toggle you want
Reply #15 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

My hope was that there were others who felt the same and as of yet had not spoken up, and that if it was at all possible that there may be check box to toggle playing with new races/techs or the DA versions.
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It's normal for game developers to put a low priority on making changes in the internal game engine, when the same thing can be accomplished easily by user modding.

Seriously.... it should be easy to use the new editors to make one vanilla tech tree that duplicates what you see in DA, and overwrite the TA trees for all the races. Then adjust the Super Abilities and beginning racial abilities to what they were in DA. You'll only have to do it once, or wait for another player to mod this and make it available in the library here. If you ever do want to try the unique racial stuff in TA, it will be easy to copy in those files from a backup (assuming you do back up the files). You don't really need a toggle switch for this, if you're already planning on playing exclusively with DA-style tech trees for all your TA games.


My other question though holds a great deal of relevance still, what will be introduced into DA 2.0 from TA, if anything at all?
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One of the devs mentioned something about this, maybe in the dev journal section? I don't remember all the details, but I'd assume that 2.0 will update some of the AI improvements, maybe the the UI updates like being able to right-click in the tech tree, and the more RAM-efficient planet textures.

I'd assume Terror Stars and the unique tech trees will remain TA exclusives, since those are the big selling points. The new invasion screen might be a TA exclusive also, since it uses the new 3D building icons. It would be neat if the new invasion screen could be back-ported to earlier versions, but it's basically just better eye candy for the auto-calculation. Anyway, that's all just a wild guess. The developers will have to let us know at some point what will go into 2.0, since some people may be sitting on the fence and wondering whether to get TA or just wait for the final 2.0 update.
Reply #16 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
It's normal for game developers to put a low priority on making changes in the internal game engine, when the same thing can be accomplished easily by user modding.

Seriously.... it should be easy to use the new editors to make one vanilla tech tree that duplicates what you see in DA, and overwrite the TA trees for all the races. Then adjust the Super Abilities and beginning racial abilities to what they were in DA. You'll only have to do it once, or wait for another player to mod this and make it available in the library here. If you ever do want to try the unique racial stuff in TA, it will be easy to copy in those files from a backup (assuming you do back up the files). You don't really need a toggle switch for this, if you're already planning on playing exclusively with DA-style tech trees for all your TA games.
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Of course, and i intend to do as such, for sandbox games. But since i play nearly exclusively on the Metaverse this will be of no help to me. :)
Reply #17 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I don't see how this relates to TA Metaverse games when you're asking for a customized, non-TA tech tree setup. I assume that any TA-based games for the Metaverse will require the standard (unique) racial tech trees, like everyone else will be using. Isn't that the whole idea of comparing scores, to be playing on the same level field?

Using the DA tech trees in a TA game would give the player an unfair advantage, considering how most of the new races are now a bit more difficult (and in some cases a LOT more difficult) to play, compared to the DA game.
Reply #18 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I assume that any TA-based games for the Metaverse will require the standard (unique) racial tech trees, like everyone else will be using. Isn't that the whole idea of comparing scores, to be playing on the same level field?

Using the DA tech trees in a TA game would give the player an unfair advantage, considering how most of the new races are now a bit more difficult (and in some cases a LOT more difficult) to play, compared to the DA game.
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Very true and i'm not sure why i didn't realize this in the first place. Of course the TA tech tree would be the one and only MV version allowed.

I duly place my cheek out there for all to slap me to attention...... ;p ;p ;p

Thanks for pointing that out Zen!!

Reply #19 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Awwww... no slaps from me, I'm a softie. :)

We still don't know exactly how the devs will set up the Metaverse with TA. Maybe they'll have separate race-based scoring instead of an overall score? It's not clear yet that all the races can be equally balanced for difficulty. And maybe the shouldn't be. Some TA races like the new Thalans only get really strong in the late game, if they can survive the early years when they're so slow to populate and tech up. I like that because it means there's a different way to play the game, if I get bored playing the other races. But that's going to wreck the previous scoring system based on early victories, as I understand it.
Reply #20 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Race-based scoring would be awesome, but it'd be difficult to categorize custom races.
Reply #21 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Being that TA is so different, I would think balancing game scores with respect to DA is going to be a bit of a challenge. It will be interesting to see what happens with Metaverse scoring.