On a similar note, there is one thing that Wyndstar has mentioned in a couple of threads I think is troubling and that the Metaverse League may be in position to help with. He's said that his scores (and Wyndstar, please correct me if I am wrong) in the TA tournament have been running much lower than they would in DA, with set-ups that ordinarily would score 150,000-200,000 scoring 40,000-50,000. If that is an accurate reflection of how scores will run with TA, then a player would be doing his team a dis-service using TA rather than DA or DL.

This would be a pity, because in my opinion TA is a lot more fun than DA and has tremendous scope for creativity in play style. If the core of the Metaverse (which the Metaverse League appears largely to be) shys away from TA because the scores run low, then the potential of that game may never be fully realized. That seems like a loss to me.

I thought perhaps if the Metaverse League as a group asked Stardock to try to keep some rough equivalency in scoring between TA and DL and DA, then perhaps they might listen to that. Seems worth bringing up at any rate. May be much ado about nothing, may be not.

Thats a good point. At this time in the beta I would imagine the scores are so much lower because of the higher maintenance cost of your navy, making military score lower, as well as that maintenance cost making your econ score lower.

I doubt that we would have that much impact that we could really affect a major scoring difference. I mean it can't hurt to ask but I wouldn't hold my breath.

I would expect that if this turns out to be the case we could make some kind of adjustment. We could actually apply a multiplier based on experience like multiply TA scores by 1.2 or whatever seems appropriate. I think it was Califdude that had suggested giving bonus points out on the basis of game like highest DL score or fastest TA win etc. I think differentiation by bonus category makes most sense since a win is a win except for a bonus it may receive.

Overall I think we can easily make some kind of reasonable adjustment if there is an issue like this. Certainly I assume the league will be very interested in making TA a legitimate play option.

This is completely true... but remember that is TOURNAMENTS, not normal games. If you look at my zero year win in "Thoughts and Analysis on Beta 4" (linked to earlier in this thread) I got a very competitive score to current DA and DL models (24000+ for a zero year tiny win) out of sandbox mode.

If they changed the scoring for Tournaments to cut out some of the current score "tricks" that is a good thing, and it shouldn't really effect the MVL, it should just effect the Tournaments. Notice also that tournament submissions appear completely "blank" for your metaverse profile. While they are listed, they don't count as games played, won or lost, and the score isn't included at all. In this case, changing the scoring formula isn't going to hurt active MV players who also dip their toes into tournaments.

As for tournament scoring, I wish some other beta testers could confirm or deny my findings. I just can't grind score in any of my usual ways in those suckers, and I don't know what I'm doing wrong. I've gotten military values in the millions... no effect. I've gotten huge, HUGE production bonuses with economy SB arrays, nothing. About the only one that seems to slightly work is pop boost, but with so few planets that is a hard one to exploit.

~ Wyndstar

W. when you say your games submitted for tournament play are blank as far as your Metaverse profile is concerned, is that a new condition for TA tournaments? We know that in MVL the games are listed in your Metaverse profile, in fact they use screen shots of the MV record as proof of the game.

I haven't gotten TA yet but from reading Beta suggestions etc. I gather that there are significant innovations from DA and DL.

The idea that players could submit either DL or DA games as they do now in MVL, has always struck me as odd. I've coached high school teams for many years and the idea of different rules for different players is hard to adjust to. But I understand that MVL has not had enough players to have separate division for DA and DL, and the method of awarding bonus points helps to mitigate the problem of differences between the two. But to add TA and try to keep it fair while allowing players to submit games from any of three different chapters would seem to me too much. Just my opinion and I glady yield to whatever the group wants to do.

If the scoring difference is only in tournaments and not in standard metaverse games, then this is a complete non-issue. My personal experience with TA in the tournament was that I submitted a rather sloppy 2 year win and scored about 22,000. That seemed a touch low, but more maybe 20-25% rather than 3 times. I did not attempt much score grinding at all other than building the spin control center and docking my ten best ships there for maybe 15 turns.

If they have cut out the known score grinding techniques (and I'm pretty sure Wyndstar knows nearly all) for metaverse as well as tournament games, then the only way to play for score is to play for speed, which would still limit it's metaverse league potential, since ties for speed are broken by score. Mumblefratz's suggestion of a score multiplier seems reasonable if it turns out to be a major issue. I'm sure something could be worked out. Allocating bonus points for each of the three versions of the game would probably be the most fair, but would also lead to significant inflation of total scores, and teams would probably choose to have at least one player to specialize in each version of the game. While more arbitrary, I think a reasonable, conservatively estimated score multiplier if the scores are running low seems to me like possibly the cleanest solution, since teams wouldn't need to have someone play each version of the game.

Haven't gotten TA yet, so ignorant of what's new there. From the above, it seems that TA offers a tournament mode separate and distinct from the Metaverse...is that correct? In MVL all games submitted for the tournaments (rounds) come from a player's Metaverse record, usually screen shots, so there can be no difference between tournament and standard Metaverse scoring...they are one and the same. In TA will we be switching to something different?

When you say if the scoring difference is only in tournaments...it becomes a non-issue...do you mean that if three players play in a tournament and their games are played under three different rule sets and scored with three different algorithms, that is a non-issue?

Not questioning anything here, just trying to understand. Thanks for yur reply.

Sorry for the lack of clarity there. A new feature in TA is tournaments. These are pre-set scenarios from stardock where the only variables are difficulty level, race customization (though the player base race is set), bonus squares and anomalies. Players all play the same scenario and there is a leaderboard on the metaverse (currently Wyndstar is 1st and 2nd and I'm 5th).

The standard metaverse is not currently enabled for TA. Sandbox games in TA have roughly normal scoring. Tournament games have wierdly low scoring. If Metaverse games are scored like Sandbox games are, then we're all set. If they are scored like tournament games, we may have a bit of a problem and we'll have to iron out a solution.

That is very clear, thanks, J.

A belated thanks to Wyndstar and Mumblefratz for the detailed and marvelous expositions on Page 14 of this thread on how to play this game at a high level. Great stuff. Thanks so much.

Sure, thanks.

---

I think I need to address something that may be perceived as an issue related to the ongoing election.

Everyone knows that I play DL and have yet to play DA. What everyone doesn't know (although some do) is why.

I had some initial concerns about some of the changes made going from DL to DA but in all reality that's probably the least of my concerns. For a long time it also seemed that DA was in a continual state of revision and I am not really all that Beta tolerant. I tend to play long games and would hate to spend 6 to 8 weeks playing a game only to have some difficulty submitting it.

However at this point it seems that things have been stable at v1.80g for awhile now so that alleviates my concerns about stability. At this time the biggest sticking point is that to get the latest version of DA I have to install SDC and I object to having to install an unwanted suite of programs whose only purpose to me is to update a program that I actually want.

To avoid installing SDC it was my desire to wait until TA is released and I get the TA CD that I’ve already purchased. I can then install the DA/DL v1.5 CD that I’ve had for over a year and then install the TA CD which would get me to DA v1.80g (or later) along with DL v1.5 (which I could actually install now but there seems no advantage in doing so) along with the initial version of TA, which of course will probably need to be revised a few times but I can deal with that later.

This is still my plan if I'm not elected commissioner. However if I am elected commissioner then I feel it's necessary to have the latest version of DA on my machine even if the only purpose is to be able to provide the DA game setting screenshots in the OP of the Round threads. I simply want people to realize that if I am elected commissioner I will have no issue (and no real choice) to installing SDC so as to have the latest DA version so I can fulfill *all* the duties of commissioner.

Of course once DA is on my machine I probably will be tempted to play a game or two on it if only to see how it plays.

I just wanted to make this clear since otherwise it could easily be perceived as an issue.

Aside from the obvious differences, DA does have some handy features making it perferable to DL. For example, you can use the L key to specify which direction ships launch from a planet. It's better about auto-upgrades and doesn't force you to always use the latest project. The tech tree display can be zoomed in and out. All things considered, I'd have to say it's a better game. However, it's more resource intensive so on a slower computer, big games can be a problem. I could tell the difference on my old computer, but my new one is pretty fast so I don't really notice it anymore.

Just a reminder to all MVL players that the Polls are open and voting is under way for a new commish, Please drop either myslef or DethAdder a pm with your vote. I would really hate to see the MVL not take the opportubity to have their say on their new commish.

Please vote.

The nominees are,

Firebender
Silverbeacher
Mumblefratz

Cast your vote now!!!!

I have a request for the next commish - this is due partly to the new forum format and the fact that you no longer go to the point in a thread where you left off last.

For the screenshots in the OP that show settings for each round, could you just post thumbnails in the thread that link to full-blown versions? I know it's an extra step, but watching this thread load is almost enough to make me seasick as those big graphics make everything jump around. You also can't scroll down to the "last page" link until they're finished loading.

I can't imagine that any one of us would have a problem doing this. I've also experienced having to scroll just to get to the point you can jump back to the end of the thread.

Although I agree it would be no problem to do so, I don't think SD will leave it unfixed.

Hi!

My vote for commish is Silverbeacher.

I have to post my vote here, because in PM I can't write a message in the text window. Need to report that.

BR, Iztok

Yes, there does seem to be some forum issues to be had indeed. IE6 and FF, if not more browsers, can't access "My Replies" or type/esnd PMs. Iztok posted this in the Forums are Back Up thread so I'm sure they'll notice it, Kryo has been keeping an eye on it all at least for sure.

My suggestion is that since I believe we all, or the vast majority, have Core access to send Neilo and DethAdder your PMs on there for the time being. I know Neilo is on there every day for sure, trying to get to the top of the battle game

Hope that helps everyone!

Other than what you arleady said, could you elaborate on the parts I selected from your post? Hmmm, asking Mumble to elaborate....what I am in for!?   

I dont know much about the MVC, because it was, as you say, mainly irrelevant by the time I started paying attention to the forums and the Metaverse. What were its accomplishments (The MVL and AltMeta of course), and failures?

How would you define Metaverse activism, and what ways would you go about promoting it?


Sentient species taste better...

Sure.

As you say the accomplishments of the MVC were the AltMeta primarily and then a good handful of the MVC councilors did certainly contribute to the formation of the MVL and continue in the league today.

As far as the AltMeta, clearly no one should try to overshadow the effort that Kryo put into it, but the MVC did come up with the idea of different classes in an attempt to make the AltMeta more attractive to those that prefered games other than the all encompasing gigantic all abundant military victory.

I do believe that would never have happened without the MVC. In addition the MVC basically provided Kryo with a representative opinion of a "typical" metaverse player without trying to canvas the entire forum. The idea was mainly to get a good selection of MV players with various interests and keep the group small so that it was easier to discuss things as well as easier to come to a consensus decision.

As far as failures of the MVC the only real failure was a failure to keep active and stay relevent by pursuing other ways to improve the popularity and participation in the Metaverse. But basically I don't really view this as a failure. As I said the MVC was the focus of metaverse activism. But there's only so much you can do. When the idea of the MVL came along and half of the MVC councilors began actively participating in it the MVL basically took up the time that had previously been spent on MVC pursuits.

With half the MVC councilors busy with the MVL the MVC basically faded away and various ideas that the MVC wanted to pursue lay fallow. The main idea at the time was the incorporation of some form of tournaments into the AltMeta

Metaverse activism is simply metaverse players doing what they can to encourage others to play in the metaverse. The idea is not to convince folks that don't care for the metaverse that they're wrong. The idea is to add new and different funtions into the AltMeta to address the issues people have. If the people won't come to the metaverse, then the metaverse should come to the people.

The kinds of things I'm talking about are things like Mods and people that play them. In general these folks are turned off by the metaverse because mods aren't allowed. But if we could add a mod metaverse into the AltMeta there are suddenly a whole lot of people that we can reach that we couldn't reach before.

Things like outreach programs to people playing in what appears to be dead empires. If you look at the AltMeta you still see games being submitted from the Overmind. The MVC tried to contact such folks and get them to be included in the ongoing life in the forums. Then the forums changed and emails by default were disabled which pretty much ended that idea. The problem is that there is more of a forum issue than there is a metaverse issue. There are many people submitting to the metaverse everyday that never post or reply to threads here on this forum. It would be nice to figure out a way to tap into this unseen potential but that has so far escaped us.

Basically the idea was to make the AltMeta a one stop shopping place for everyone that had any interest in GC2 no matter how varied that interest was. By doing so it could be a place that no matter how infrequently someone stopped by there was a place that they could hook up with old friends and comrades.

Does Metaverse allow registration of games that have been modded? I hope not. In my opinion Metaverse should check on whether game specs hve been modded, and if so, reject them. Not that I have any opinion about modding by anyone who wants to do it, anyone is welcome to play the game any way they want to. But IMHO moddding has no place in a record to which others will be comparing their scores, successes, failures.

No, modded games are not Metaverse legal, and they get tagged with the cheat flag.

Sentient species taste better...

To expand on the idea of a mod metaverse it could be many different things.

In one case it could be a totally separate entity that exists in parallel with the "regular" AltMeta.

Or perhaps there could be a way to pre-approve certain mods as "graphical only" and allow those to be listed right along with non-modded games.

Last I heard Macmatt was attempting to put something together, however, clearly this is/would be totally separate from the AltMeta. However the idea was even if the desire is to not mix these games in any way, that's fine but simply by hosting these in the same place (i.e. the AltMeta) it increases traffic for both MV players and modders and the AltMeta becomes a more viable and interesting place for a greater number of people.

The details of all of these things are obviously very important when it comes down to their actual implementation, however the "big picture" is simply to get more folks involved with the metaverse and to appeal to as many different interests as possible.

Macmatt's ModMetaverse was actually up and working as I had submitted an ST Mod game to it. I'm not sure what's the current state of it as I got busy and lost touch with it. I did like the setup it had, you simply submitted the endgame.xml(DA 1.6 or later) in an easy to use uploader. It displayed games categorized by the mod used. Hopefully Macmatt will stop by and give a little more info on it and/or whether he is still working on a public release of it.

Well, if flagged games or special categories for mod games can increase the traffic as M suggests, I surely have no problem with that. The reason I brought the subject up was that someone said something that sounded like Metaverse accepted mod games and that scared me a little.