Thanks Wyndstar. I didn't play all-labs. I played all-factories. Therefore never got near Concepts of Malice. Hence no MCC. It makes sense now.

As for what was common in my 0 years wins (I did 6 different maps), here's what I think. BTW, the AI did not surrender in any game I played.

1. DA has hostile environment planets. None of those were colonized in any of the games I played, so the AI had less planets.

2. DA has hostile environment planets. The AI wasted it's time researching Extreme Colonization and such. I did not.

3. DA has spore ships. I eliminated any ships in orbit around the AI planet and moved a spore ship in. The drawback to this was I now had a colony with 0 population and it's now a hostile environment planet running at 50%. All infrastructure remains though.

4. Civilization Graveyards. I made them a top priority. Rarely did I ever have to put much research into the Spore Ship tech. Every time you see one switch to Spore Ship research and take it. If you find 4, 25% ones early enough you don't have to spend a single research BC on Spore Ships. Generally I found at least 2.

5. I took out the AI homeworld first and I did it early. Cut the head off the dragon and it kinda just rolls over and plays dead.

That's what I can think of off the top of my head.

This was not my perception, and I dont think anybody else thought that. I think you are merely looking for information with which to decide if you want to start playing DA, so as not to be at a disadvantage.

Sentient species taste better...

Several posts happened as I was typing up my reply above. No worries Mumble, I too did not think you were questioning, but were seeking some insight. I forgot about the Space Miner trick. I did use that ploy.

Editted to add this.

One more thing different in DA; the ability to launch ships from a planet in any direction. It's tedious but you can move a ship into orbit and then launch it from the other side, saving 2 movement points.

I upgrade the miner to a colony ship virtually every game. Some other civ will mine the asteroids next to my homeworld and then it will flip to me relatively soon, so I mostly ignore them in the beginning of the game.

Sentient species taste better...

Hi.

Not in the MVL, but enjoying this discussion.

I do that myself, but lately (TA Thalans...) I've been finding uses for the miner as a miner. It takes a little while to get going, but actually being able to pump out colony ships from my homeworld is...sweet.

@Wyndstar
Nice rush game there. I'm wondering why you didn't just rush Sensors IV and lease buy Eyes of the Universe, as that probably would have revealed the last AI planets, but I guess you knew what you were doing. Extremely valid point on soldiering vs. sporing.

Also, though, I was under the impression that a game completed in 12 turns or less would be cheat flagged if submitted to the MV. This is in regards to your 10-turn game mentioned earlier in the thread. Maybe that's DA-specific? In any case, while I do feel a sub-12 turn game is more luck than much else (such as your sole opponent being one sector away), I do feel it counts as a valid game, and although most of my games are actually too long, I've had a few games short enough that apparently they would be MV cheat flagged, were they to be MV games. I -think- I had a game END February 1st once, but I can't remember. I guess it's irrelevant as I don't play MV, yet at least, but still. What are your thoughts?

On a completely different topic, am I the only one who wishes there was an option in game settings to turn off bonus tiles? Sometimes I just want to see how I do without them...anyone else?

Precisely. Thanks. Although it was more looking for information to determine if I *needed* to start playing DA earlier than I otherwise intended as well as fishing for information that would help me once I did start playing DA.

@Wyndstar. Yes that really did help. And there was some helpful placement involved as well. Having the Thalans in the corner with the single planet and no real place to go was key in disposing of them quickly which allowed you to start on the Altarians home planet before they could put up any real defenses. Once the Altarians home planet was gone as you said it's just mopping up.

In my game I wasted time and a portion of my starting 5000 bc by colonizing planets. You took your one colony and went from there.

In my game I had planetary invasion by turn 12 which was not all that far behind you but both of my AI's had 3 colonies each by then and although I was able to jump and take out all four of the Drengin planets by the time I finished with the Drengins the Torians were well armed. Just the matter of a handful of turns can make a huge difference. In fact I had to build laser fighters to clear out the Drengin and by the time I reached the Torian homeworld I needed fighters armed with Phasors. Even then I still was able to take out their four planets but it wasn't until April 1 of year 1 which is not a zero year win. I probably could have managed a zero year win if I had been able to take out that first opponent at a single planet even with the mistake of colonizing planets.

There were also other things I did inefficiently for the quick win. For example I produced all my transports and didn't buy them long term which was a mistake.

Perhaps if I didn't colonize any planets, had bought my transports on time and perhaps had put a laser on them I may have been able to win in year 0 even with both opponents being able to colonize 4~5 planets.

I do have one question about your screenshots.

Your turn 1 reasearch was 72. Assuming 24 from your civ cap and 12 from the basic lab on a bonus tile that's 36 which implies a 100% research bonus.

Also your turn 2 research was 104. Again assuming 24 from civ cap, 12 from basic lab and 16 from xeno lab (on 100% bonus tile) gives 52 which again implies a 100% research bonus.

However your race overview page shows a 20% racial research ability and a 20% research bonus from the technologists for a total of 40% research ability. Where's the other 60% research bonus coming from or what am I missing?

Good to see we have an audience. Certainly all are welcome to join in even if only in the discussion.

I'm not the guy that can respond to your TA/DA related comments but perhaps others will.

The only thing about bonus tiles is playing without them is obviously a disadvantage against playing an AI that may have some (or playing a game that gets compared to someone else's game that does have significant bonus), but being able to turn all bonus tiles off in the game seems a fair way to start.

I was wondering if the voting has began? Candidates seem set. Want to get this show on the road and see what the next round has in store

I dont know if it's officially begun, but I'm casting my vote right after this post.

Sentient species taste better...

yes the voting began today and goes for one week (so through Midnight on Thursday, Feb 28th EST)

Again, candidates are Mumblefratz, Silverbeacher, and FireBender

All PMs should be addressed to either DethAdder and/or Neilo

I've been following the discussion between W and M with great interest, especially considering that in Round I had the distinction of submitting the second poorest game overall and dragging Team A's score down by a few thousand points. (Everyone has been nice about it, but I did find a dead cat on my doorstep and someone threw a rock through my window.) I'll be studying W's game and M's comparison to prep for the next round, assuming that some team will still have me, but a few quick questions:

W's score summary: One of my games:
Soc 1037 6394
Tech 905 1546
Econ 875 5145
Mil 17 !!! 8029
Game Score 20550 ??? 12,600

W's game was DL and mine was DA, but still?

Second: If you don't colonize and go with your home planet Class 10 and nearby Class 4 (that's what DA starts you with) where do you get the research power to gain the techs so fast? Was the game played with research setting of Very Fast? Also, W mentioned getting two techs on one turn if I read him right...how is that possible?

BTW, I am interested in Ferrel's system of getting Spore Weapons by finding Civilization Graveyards that cut your research time by 25%. I've noticed anomalies sometimes did that but never made the connection. A 0 yr game seems more within reach if you can get spore ships, and use them to knock off colonies which you simply destroy so they can't be retaken. I would think that if all you want is fewer turns then you don't need to keep the colonies you are attacking unless they can produce spore ships immediately. If you want high score, then I assume PI would be better because you are gaining population and need colonies to produce the 1500 ships and 16 starbases M recommends.

A further question about W's fastest-path-to-PI strategy: Don't you need to go on through Shock Troops so you won't have to transport so many soldiers to win the invasions? Or do you literally stop at PI?

Thanks for the great input, guys.

Could the OP please be updated with the current team-members. I'm not sure of everyone who is in or out for Team D. I never heard from Haart at all, GalenEvil is out indefinitely with computer problems, and PlayJeff is on another team now.

Sentient species taste better...

This is very key and indicitive of the early win.

Take the sum of Wyndstar's 4 components of score and compare to his total score.

(1037+905+875+17)=2834, 20550/2834=7.25

Now look at yours.

(6394+1546+5145+8029)=21114, 12600/21114=0.59

So basically Wyndstars score is 7 times that of the sum of his four components of score and your score is a bit better than half of the sum of your four components of score.

The difference is because (I suspect, there has been no verification by Stardock on this matter) the 4 components of score are raw numbers that then get an additional division by the turn number before being accumulated into the total.

The difference is not DL to DA but 0 year to 4 year or how many game years your game was.

I know we had this discussion before and there is some confusion about division by turn number versus division by turn number squared. I've tried to explain this in different ways at different times with limited success but I'll give it another try here.

Again this is guesswork on my part and Purge and I have discussed this often and he is in complete agreement.

Anyway taking just one of your four components lets just take your social total of 6394. How the 6394 is derived is to at each turn take your population and divide it by the turn number and then add that to your population divided by the turn number next turn and so on until you do this for all turns. From the description of the process at each turn the value of your pop is divided by the turn number but then all of these are added up and the total number of items added is equal to the total number of turns. The net effect of this summation is that you have taken the divide by turn number out of the equation. However there are some funky non linearities going on here. These are not just simple sums but actually discrete convolutions of pop at each turn convolved with the inverse of the turn number.

The above is the hardest part to describe. You basically have a function that is divided by some function of the turn number but then multiplied by some other function of the turn number. The end result is that you have a cumulative total that is front end weighted but is not strongly dependent on the turn number. Anyway back in version 1.0 and 1.1 this was the end of how scoring worked. At that time your final score was merely the sum as described above of the four components of score with no additional derating by turn number.

However what happened was that if someone just hit end turn forever (and someone did) the score would simply increase forever. Score was basically meaningless. To fix this SD added the second divide by turn number when accumulating the four components of score. This is why the sum of the four components now can vary so widely from your total score.

The confusion is that you're dividing each turns contribution by the turn number but then by summing each turns contribution you're effectively multipling by turn number thereby taking it out of the equation. Only once the second division by turn number was added did the overall function become like 1/n.

[edit]
I wish I could get an explanation of this by a real Mathematician.
[/edit]

The teams list in the MVL thread will get updated in a moment mate. no point updating the OP in here. The new commish will also list the teams in the OP of the round 7 thread.

Mumble. I have read other posts where you have explained this before and i know i did not get it those times. This time though, i understand, thankyou for the explanation.

---

Can i remind everyone to be sure to send your vote for commissioner to either myself or DethAdder. I really would love to see every MVL player vote in this election. The polls will be open for one week.

Your guess is as good as mine. I don't know how to get greater than a +40% research bonus to start with the Yor on DL. That is all I thought I had. I didn't delve into the numbers because I just played quick, I have absolutely no idea how I would get an extra 60%. Starting a new game quick with the same settings and I can get the same research total though with the same bonus tiles...

Sure the Thalan placement helped, but its not necessary. Turns 9-18ish if you just kick out a transport every turn, a few with beam weapons, and you can pretty much beat anyone on a tiny map as long as you don't start in the corner and the AIs start across the map. That setup is what I happened to get for that quick demo.

As for some of the other replies... I also manually move my survey ships for civ graveyards and forgo auto-survey. On such a short game its just not a pain to micro manage one ship, and the 25% bonuses makes a huge deal. And you start the game as the Korath with the ability to research spore ships, so with all labs it only takes 4-5 turns to kick out that tech on normal if you get even a modest tech bonus tile (+100%). When you can start sporing on turn 6, even with the slower engine speeds of DA, its pretty easy to bag your first opponent by turn 10.

Glad I could be of some help. As to the question as to why my official submission had a military score of 17.... when you never build combat ships but just arm a few spore ships, thats kinda the result you get. I don't like to waste time on military early game because the SCC takes too long to research to pay off score wise in the first 40 turns vs. what else is out there. MCC > SCC when you don't have the time for any good weapon techs score wise.

~ Wyndstar

I put my sliders to 100% research, 100% production capacity, and just rush buy the labs. The game was played on normal tech rate as that was the limitation for this round.



Tech prices are slightly different version to version, but if you have enough research being generated you can get as many techs as you can research. Late game with a high tech rate I've gotten over a dozen techs in one turn (defense techs). Many research points will automatically start you on the next step in the tree if you are producing enough research.



In my experience, if going for a rush win, speed is much more important than trying to set up a military starbase array. PI is worse because it reduces your taxable population which makes the game harder... which is why I needed to load up on soldiering racial bonuses and I stayed on the invasion lines for a bit. Spore ships actually give you free (albeit tiny) populations because every planet you spore automatically gets a few colonists the next turn.



I don't necessarily stop at PI, although I sometimes do. It depends on my total soldiering bonus. I always pick up planetary defense as well, its a cheap tech for another 10 soldiering points. When you are trying to kill 8 billion people with 500 million or a 1 billion troops, you need a good soldiering bonus... and sometimes mass drivers.

Hope that helps,
~ Wyndstar

only 50% manufacturing production. People breed and research is conducted at the full 100%



~ Wyndstar

I wonder if there is any kind of cross pollination with raceconfig files when you go back and forth between DA and DL.

Anyway, it's not really germane to the discussion because you could easily have a 300% tile instead. The 72 to 104 research is not so outlandish as to be unachieveable and even if it was I doubt it would of made that much difference other than to add a turn or two to the process.

The biggest "trick" is in simply knowing that it can be done. Once this is known the how becomes easier. Also I agree that having the Thalan cornered or not probably wouldn't have made much difference to you.

However there is an experience and "knack" that one develops about things like this. The first time you try it, it seems impossible. Once you see someone else do it then you can replicate it under certain conditions. Once you've done it a few times you realize that perhaps the certain conditions are not really required. Do it some more times and it's like this is easy. Do it a few more beyond that and it's how could anyone not see how simple this is.

Basically the problem with my attempt to do this in DL was slowed by colonizing 5 planets. Then it was slowed again by waiting for my transports to build versus buying them on time. Then it was slowed again when my transport had no laser on it so I couldn't invade right away because the AI had a colony ship in orbit.

You add up a few delays like this and suddenly you're 8 turns later in the game and the second AI is sprouting defenders with phasors mounted. That delay is critical. It makes the difference between impossible and easy.

I only say wow and thanks.

I was going to say...

Iconia gives a 10% research bonus, which applies as though it were a racial bonus (this is why rings/moons are valuable early on, but become essentially worthless if you do an economic starbase array, for instance). Further, PI (Planetary Improvements, not Planetary Invasion) gives +10 research/social/military.

This brings Wyndstar's total to +50%, or +60% if he researched P. Imp. (Wow, that looks suspiciously like another word...) first/early, leaving only 40% to still be accounted for.

But then I noticed:
1) Turns 1 & 2, respectively, so no PIMP, which means 50% still to be accounted for.
2) DL 1.5 isn't providing me with a research bonus for rings. It shows up in planet details, but it isn't doing squat. I even gave it a turn to kick in, and nothing.

Incidentally, Wyndstar, I personally cannot duplicate your turn 1 & 2 research values using the Yor with your setup/buildings/bonus tiles. Maybe they like you more?

@mumble: there is definitely no cross pollination between DL and DA raceconfig files as they are separated by different folders. Also, DL has a different set of rules governing its raceconfig files than DA does.

And to answer your question earlier Mumble, I won my 0 year suicidal games completely differently. Of course, Wyndstar is much better than me (most of us, actually) when it comes to unconventional playstyle. I loved his comeback win thread. I played much the same way I normally would, only tried to do everything faster. I built a custom race with +1 speed bonus and Super Hive. My thoughts were the same as yours, every planet I colonize is one I don't have to invade later. In one game, due to good positioning, I colonized every available planet except the AI secondaries. Those were the only ones they had. I only built Laser II smalls and transports, and because factories were cheap, I could crank them out. The AI was able to build decent ships too, but as always, they launched them as fleets and left their planets weakly defended. My ships all moved faster with my speed bonus, and leftover pirate ships attacked the other AI worlds, too. I did not have the game won by turn 20 by any means, but was able to squeak it out in the end. I was disappointed with my final economy score, and felt that was the biggest difference in points.

I never even thought of doing it Wyndstar's way, so it seems this game still will let you have different strategies for similar results.

Actually I tried Wyndstar's setting in DL v1.4x and got pretty much the same results.

Here is my race config screen.



Here is my stats & graphs showing the 40% total research ability.



Now my planet screen. Note I actually managed 73 research for some unknown reason. Also note the 38 bc's of spending which is 1 point each for the lab and starport maintenance (civ cap is maintenance free) plus 36 bc's for the base research of 36.



Next my summary screen showing a base research of 36.



Followed by my details screen showing the same base research of 36 and the (assumedly non-functional) 10% ring bonus.



Finally my domestic policy screen showing both Industrial Capacity and Research Rate sliders set to 100%. Note that this screen breaks down the 36 bc spent on research and the 2 bc on maintenance on Iconia. Also note the 18 bc's spent on bonus prod/research and recall that bonus research costs 50% of normal. At least the total spending correlates to a research of 72 (where did I get 73 though?).



I can't explain it either but other than the 1 extra research point I get the same results as Wyndstar did.

Curiouser and curiouser. Perhaps not all things are knowable.

Thanks for the info. Certainly only having to conquer four planets is an easier way to get started. It's also good to see that there is no single unique strategy.

I think what I said earlier once I understood Wyndstar is apropos. When you haven't done it before it can look impossible. Then once shown one way you can replicate it perhaps with specific conditions. Once you've mastered that knack then you discover that perhaps the specific conditions are not required. From there it snowballs. What once you considered impossible now becomes easy. But the biggest step is that very first step where you know it can be done.

Yet another precursor mine on a homeworld Mumble. I'd say the luck of the Irish is with you lately!!