New Starbase Construction Protocols

No more multiple Constructors!

I think it goes without saying that most everyone is disgusted with the way Starbases are currently built. People get around the multiple Constructor issue in various ways, but the fact that they find ways around it simply indicates that it's not fun - no one actually likes making all these Constructors and trundling them all around the neighborhood.

I'm proposing an idea for the devs - something that relies on a built-in mechanic that can be used to ease the problem, and hopefully also "fix" a related "problem," perhaps even several problems.

My recent post on the "Strength Starbase" thread gave me an idea. Instead of making Constructors, why not make Starbases a bit like Planets with a limited Build Queue? That way, you can assign a queue of modules to be built and then never has to mess with that Starbase again.

Where will the production come from? From Planets, of course. We already have "streaming" resources from the asteroid mechanic. This time, it's simply the reverse. Starbases need to be linked to planets to acquire production to build their modules. The further away they are, the less of the planet's full production they receive. While aiding Starbases make modules, planetary build queues are put on hold. Once the module making is finished (or discontinued), the planet is free to resume its normal build queue.

Of course, some deep space Starbases make more sense than others. This can be managed several ways. For instance, Influence Starbases almost need to be far away to be of any service in converting enemy planets and projecting useful influence. Their Influence Modules can be made to have a distance discount to offset the distance penalty for production - films and stars are easy to export. However, defense modules and such would not have the same discount - hardware is still tough to trundle across the vastness of space.

Not only does this model offer the verisimilitude of expensive deep space Starbases, by freeing the Starbase from the quantum value of the Constructor, one can expand module balance and variety with greater vitality and with a more precise measure of balance. A faraway Influence Starbase could have relatively cheap Influence modules, but expensive defensive modules, for instance, whereas a nearby one would have relatively the same Influence Module cost, but substantially cheaper defensive module cost - all using the same simple algorithm.

Modules can be more robustly balanced against each other and achieve greater functional variety because they now don't need to be balanced against the cost of a Constructor.

Constructors can still serve as a focal point for Constructing Starbases - as in you need one to start one off, or you need one to start one off AND in order to build modules. You won't need gazillions of them, but you'll need to have some handy for repair and upgrade work when necessary.

15,450 views 26 replies
Reply #1 Top
That sounds like a great idea.... however, have you considered having both systems?

I mean, use the streaming technique for starbases that lie within your zones of influence but instead have to change to the traditional constructor to upgrade the modules for bases that lie outside your influence.


Alternatively you could instead implement a 'construction trade route' to supply starbases outside of the area influence building up resources on the starbase in much the same way as trade routes work. This would need one freighter per base outside of your influence with bases that are later covered by your influence relinquishing their freighter rather than it just disappearing like when trade routes are dissolved currently.
Reply #2 Top
The freighter idea is certainly interesting. I also had the same thought, but I was thinking that initially, at least, I want the implementation to be as simple as possible, so there's less chance of programming failure, and so that the devs will be more likely to be open to the idea.

A single working algorithm would be best, though. I think we want to limit the number of working programs that are resident in the memory at any one time. Also streamlines the game program, since you'll essentially be using planet-like building queues for the Starbases.
Reply #3 Top
Well, i have no idea about programming really, but surely freigthers to starbases could fall under the trade code and so be implemented quite easily. The check to see if a starbase is inside or outside of your influence is done already i think?

Just like the 'beaming' could use the asteroid mining code to be implemented.

Maybe what i said was all just crap... i don't know - someone set me straight! :)
Reply #4 Top
To make Starbases fun, all you need to do is:

1.) Build a single constructor or a fleet of constructors.
2.) Send the constructor to the location where the Starbase is to be built
3.) Start constructing the starbase. The construction process should take a long time for a single constructor. The more constructors in the fleet, the quicker the starbase is built. When construction is finished, the constructors are disposed of.
4.) Once the starbase is built, it becomes like a planet with tiles. The more advanced your technology is, the more tiles your starbases have.
5.) You build on your starbase tiles just like you do on planets. Click the empty tile and a list of modules shows up.
6.) The speed at which you build depends on the number of freighters coming back and forth between the starbase and a planet. The closer the planet, the faster the building process. This would make it hard for AI that likes to put up a million influencer starbases around all the opponents planets.

You also have to make starbases stronger. Starbases are destroyed WAY too easily right now. There is no reason that a single fighter should be able to destroy a starbase; it's ridiculous.

This would be way better than the existing system.
Reply #5 Top
One more idea.

Friendly Civilizations can profit by sending freighters to your starbases.

The owner of the starbase gets faster building and more influence while the owner of the freighter gets $$$$.
Reply #6 Top
AND - you can name your Starbases.

That way, all the geeks can call their first starbase "Deep Space 9"
Reply #7 Top
I like the "starbases like planets" idea, definitely more streamlined than sending endless numbers of constructors over.
Reply #8 Top
AND - you can name your Starbases.

That way, all the geeks can call their first starbase "Deep Space 9"
End of quote


You can already name starbases.
Reply #9 Top
Deep Space 9?

Wimpy station. I always have the Iron Bitch. Read the Armagedon Inheratance from David Weber.
Reply #10 Top
Deep Space 9?

Wimpy station. I always have the Iron Bitch. Read the Armagedon Inheratance from David Weber.
End of quote


I never bother naming bases, but my ship classifications are all based on Honorverse ship classes. Care to guess what Shrike and Ferret class ships are?
Reply #11 Top
Deep Space 9?

Wimpy station. I always have the Iron Bitch. Read the Armagedon Inheratance from David Weber.


I never bother naming bases, but my ship classifications are all based on Honorverse ship classes. Care to guess what Shrike and Ferret class ships are?
End of quote


I use shrike and ferret class ships for my tinies. Shrikes are beam armed and Ferrets are missile armed.
Reply #12 Top
This is a really excellent idea. In the late game, ~60% of my click load is directing the construction and distribution of constructors for dozens of starbases with a dozen modules each. This would dramatically streamline empire management, especially on huge galaxies where you're monitoring sooo many bases.
Reply #13 Top
Thanks. One hopes that the devs have the time to implement it, if they approve.
Reply #14 Top
I completely agree and LOVE all the above suggestions... But just for the record. Non of these ideas are new. We have been asking for a starbase system like this for years. literally... I got this game back in '06 and I've been pleading (along with many others) for this ever since. I just hope this next expansion will do the Starbase justice. It was this very issue that caused me to stop playing. So devs, Please take note. This issue IS one that causes players to put the game away. Its just too frustrating. I love playing with starbases, but the way they are right now just ruins the whole game for me.
Reply #15 Top
I definitely agree, the insane levels of micro-management needed to upgrade starbases makes them a total pain. There are so many different ways to improve upon this, personally I like the idea of making them like planets with slots to build upon. The use of constructors to upgrade the starbases seems....out of place with everything else, a starbase should be self-sufficient and able to upgrade and repair and build upon itself once it's constructed. Once you start adding starbases the amount of constructors needed becomes insane.


But thats just my 2c.
Reply #16 Top
I love the current system. I don't know why you don't.

However, yours also makes sense; perhaps a mix?
Reply #17 Top
I love the current system. I don't know why you don't.
End of quote


Have you tried building a 24 base array and then maxing it out? Thats some 600 odd constructors, and then there are all the resources. Take a gig game for example. 25+ resources needing 8 or 9 constructors minimum. Thats nearly another 250 constructors. And we are still not counting any influence or econ bases either.

It is an understatement that the constructor micromanagement is flawed.

just hope this next expansion will do the Starbase justice.
End of quote


The 2.0 update was when this was being addressed last i heard.

Reply #18 Top
Intriguing idea, a mix would probably be best
Reply #19 Top
I do use military star bases. (note I only play in gigantic or better).

First using a spy I identify the best cluster of systems the bad guy has.

secondly I make up 2 to three combat fleets and two to three constructor fleets and two fleets of transports 2000 + each ship. One fleet is all heavys Medium hulls or better and one of Heavy fighter and medium hulls. The third combat fleet would be the same as the second.

First action is to take out all starbases that the bad guy owns.
The second is to build the military starbase and use all of the constructors on the fleet bonus mod first.

Park one or two of the smaller ship combat fleets on top of the star base and caputure all the planets in its area of effect.

This works best when the objective systems are a good deal away from the front lines. The three fleets are on there own at this point they function only defensivly basically opening a second front within the bad guys empire. It works well to my advantage most of the time.

Duh

First
Reply #20 Top
I got this game back in '06 and I've been pleading (along with many others) for this ever since.
End of quote


Similiar story for myself. Nothing stated in this post sounds much different than anything I've read thus far.

Where will the production come from? From Planets, of course. We already have "streaming" resources from the asteroid mechanic.
End of quote


Why don't you include asteriods as a source of resources? I've mentioned using asteriods for my drydock starbase idea (ship factory starbase). Using asteriods would allow for easier remote construction of starbases. If placing a starbase near a bunch of asteriods is going to help it to be built faster, then why not place it closer?

You also have to make starbases stronger. Starbases are destroyed WAY too easily right now. There is no reason that a single fighter should be able to destroy a starbase; it's ridiculous.
End of quote


Well when more of the TA tools comes out, I'm going to experiment with starbases that not only have less modules, but are more powerful too. I might make several different builds to see what works, and what doesn't (I don't want to make anything overpowered).
Reply #21 Top
Resources starbases are a pain and I like the idea of auto upgrades. Maybe the defensive and offensive upgrades could require constructors and all the resource upgrades automatic in some way depending on age and tech level.
Reply #22 Top
Yes, star bases in the game must change. I hadn't played the game in some months, forgetting exactly why I stopped playing, and quickly discovered the sickening constructor management aspect of the game. It gives me headaches, and takes focus of the game away from fun aspects to non-fun aspects.
Reply #23 Top
Maybe the different types of combat upgrades should be mutually exclusive. You'll still be able to build Battle Stations, but if you build, say, a Star Javelin, you won't be able to build beam or gun weapons on the starbase. The same would go for the defense modules.

Also, improved versions of a module (Battle Stations II, for example), should work like building upgrades; you can build them directly (without having to build Battle Stations I), and they replace any older versions of the module.
Reply #24 Top
Someone proposed making constructors like Space Miners. They stop at a starbase and build new modules there, for a price, and then move on. I suppose you would be able to queue modules, and pick which starbase to upgrade, because i cant see constructors upgrading starbases automatically, that wouldnt be balanced.

I also like the starbases-like-planets idea. You could then assign a planet to ship its military production to a specific starbase and boost its construction, and there could be modules on those starbases that boost the upgrade speed, like for exemple 'xeno factory module', which converst credits into production without an assigned planet, etc. There could even be industrial starbases, who can build several modules to boost production and then ship its production to other starbases!

Another idea is upgrading starbases like improvements in civilization call to power. IIRC, in CtP you can order your cities to build 'infrastructure points' and then you can spend those points to improve your territory, building farms and roads without workers/constructors. In TA you could order your planets to build 'starbase modules' paoints, and then click on a starbase and spend those points to get new modules added there. Maybe even sell/buy those points in diplomacy. This way, when you want to upgrade a starbase, click on it and spend those points; no need to change planets production to constructors, then moving constructors there, then choosing the module... way less micro.

I dont like the way starbases are handled right now. If you use rally points and governors, macroing all your constructors to build/upgrade a starbase, and then moving the rally point to a new area when the first one is fully upgraded isnt such a problem, the trouble starts when you get new technologies and want to upgrade all your existing starbases; you either micro a certain number of constructors all over your empire or move the constructor rally point around until everything is upgraded, very time consuming and not efficient at all. Besides, no starbase can hold a fleet.

In my last game, i picked a couple planets to spam constructors and built only a few economic starbases, and many, many '2 modules -3 ship speed' military starbases. I'd lose one every now and then, but rebuilding them was fast and i managed to shield a whole sector of my empire against surprise attacks. A couple +2 speed starbases in the middle allowed me to quickly reinforce that side of my empire when needed. Its been a couple games since i built my last attack/defense module, they're just not worth it.

AT LEAST, if nothing changes, let us put several construction modules on each constructor ship, so we can upgrade them faster!
Reply #25 Top
I've once suggested a system akin to miners and asteroids but I'm certain many others will have been earlier to suggest such a change. Especially on larger maps the starbases become cumbersome and the area of effect diminishes relatively. Actually, I don't even bother building starbases on large or gigantic maps except on resources. Works just fine.

From the systems I've read about, I prefer the one where you build a constructor and that ship will build your starbase, completely, over time. Once it's done, it'll move to the next site and so on and so forth. Of course, the building would come at a fee; after all you don't need to build constructors anymore.

The idea of turning the starbase into a kind of planet sounds intriguing enough but I'm wondering a bit about the details: would you allow duplicate modules for example?

I'm not much of a fan of streaming resources towards them like asteroids stream them to planets. It would require extra coding to get influence starbases going for example.