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Which Ethical Alignment?

Which Ethical Alignment?

I'm wondering about which ethical alignment...good, neutral, evil...most DA players play by. Has there been a poll taken to find out?

I've been playing consistently as "good" because...well, I'm a good guy haha. But I'm getting the impression that the high rollers here mostly play evil. One of the Metaverse empires says the more evil the better. So, what are you all doing?

Thanks for your replies.
37,820 views 88 replies
Reply #51 Top
First, you did fail. It's Spaceballs, and this is relevant. If you weren't absolutely sure what you were referencing, you should not have referenced it. Right or wrong, errors like this inevitably degrade the percieved credibility of the rest of your argument. The same holds true for blatant spelling or gramatical errors, which you have thankfully avoided.
End of quote


Doh. That's what I get for posting right before I go to bed, I suppose. ::P

Second, there are no assurances the game is balanced, or ever will be. To paraphrase Frogboy, it's a single player game. Imbalances will exist, and it's entirely the player's choice in how to deal with them.

Having said that, I agree with you to a point. The random ethical events need to add a bit to good options, despite how unrealistic they may have to be. As for techs, only one change is really needed to balance the extremes in DA (I haven't played enough TA to have a valid opinion) - take the MCC econ bonus and make it a local bonus, not global, and restore the planet-flipping effect it was originally intended to have. That will wipe out nearly half of an evil empire's income, and restore a degree of parity in the influence wars.
End of quote


Uh, no. Nerfing the MCC bonus is a start. Good is still, comparatively speaking, useless.
Reply #52 Top
Honshu:

Not in my experience. "Good" is a game mechanic, nothing more. Essentially, the game asks you to choose from 3 differently valued choices with repercussions down the line. Choosing "Good" simply means that you can opt to align with Good with no costs. Do this experiment and you'll see: rename the alignments and remove all nongame elements.

The "weirdness" of the choice balance will become apparent. Of course, if you're up for score, you need to play a certain way, and that way skews to the Evil alignment, but then again, if you want to max score in other games, you also kind of need to play in unorthodox manners as well.

What benefits does aligning with Good do? It essentially allows you an "in" into a Good-only members club, something that only usually applies to Good Civs. Evil Civs don't usually band up and dogpile people like that. Good Civs do. Is that an unusual situation? Well, you can make your own Civ makeup for the game, so it's only as unusual as you want it to be.

Generally, half component of Good Civs in a game, or equal component of them, all things being equal, leads to a slight domination by Good Civs because they dogpile. The Altarian's superability only encourages the tendency even more. That means that Evil AIs and players need brute power to compete or they'll get dogpiled one at a time.

Yes' I've seen it happen occasionally. Good Civs that are technically individually weak eventually take over a game because they dogpile Evil Civs.

Aligning with Good gives you diplomacy and loyalty bonuses, as well as a substantial Trade bonus. Including the dogpile bonus, it's a little more flexible for peace and war than Neutral (more peace) or Evil (more war), but as an alignment, Good is overall better for winning games (not necessarily for making scores).

The extra wartime techs are a no-brainer. Evil Civs have ship production bonuses and the Psyonic Beam, but if you're not into beams, you won't get that synergy. Good Civs get powerful Armor and Shield techs, and with the premium the game rewards in the midgame for defense-oriented ship design, it's usually enough to score a definite edge in war, all other things aside from alignment being equal.

The attack values and ship fleets I've been able to amass as Evil Krynn, for instance are enormous, especially driven by the bonuses I get early game, but I tend to dominate space combat more as Good anything, because the defense techs are just that uber.

In peacetime, too, the loyalty and diplomacy benefits are palpable. You get more Econ with Evil, plus the free combat upgrades on the starbases, but the trade bonus can potentially make it up, and the tech trade premiums with the diplomacy bonus is also pretty decent.

The MCC is quite potent - there's no doubt about that. At the same time, I do kind of get more surrenders, even from Evil Civs, when I parlay the "surrender to me" aspect of the Good alignment. Getting an entire Civ with such minimal effort is just game-swinging.

The choices on the events are weirdly balanced, not completely imbalanced. You can be Good in the game even if you commit genocide or do slavery. Don't pay attention to that. If you're talking game balance, then we're talking game mechanics exclusively. Whether you choose one choice more is immaterial. As long as you skew enough to Good or Evil or Neutral is the ONLY thing that matters.

What you want is not to balance the alignments, but to balance the choices at the event level. That's not the same thing. Protoss units don't need to individually be equal to Terran units because there are downsides to them elsewhere.

Good choices don't need to be balanced with Evil choices at the event level because there are upsides to it elsewhere.





Reply #53 Top
I'm reading these comments with great interest, and appreciate the thought going into them. I remain one who sees the present system as unbalanced and unfortunate. While other aspects of the game have been carefully changed and tweaked for balance and playability, the ethical aspect remains virtually unchanged from the begining of CG2. Unless we are willing to say that this aspect, alone, was perfectly done from the start, we should all welcome a refinement to the system, if not a wholesale overhaul.

Commenting on some of the points that have been made:

1) Some say that "Good" is supposed to be weaker becasue that's the way real life is (or that the positive results of good choices are *only* long-term). We are getting into philosophy here, but I would strongly disagree that good moral choices always result in immediate disadvantage. In fact, my personal observation and experience is that good choices are benefial for both the present and the future. ("Enlightened self-interest" is not a bad motivation. We need all the motiveation we can get...) and when it comes to making clearly disadvantageous choices, both good and evil make short-term sacrifices for long-term goals. The difference is in what the goals are. Also, justifying the present game imbalance by citing supposed long term benefits for the good should require that the evil receive little or no long term benefits! They spent their "moral capital" on short term gains, didn't they? In fact, the long-term benefits of evil in GC2 are pretty solid. They can "have their cake and eat it too." That is not realistic.

2) The efforts to explain that the present game is balanced seem strained to me. I sure have not seen it in any of the many games I have played. Let's just admit it: In the overwhelming majority of gaming situations, playing "good" is a disadvantage and playing "evil" is lots easier.
Reply #54 Top
It seems relevant to mention that it APPEARS that the Evil / Good "techs" are going away for race-specific ones.

That said:

- I agree you shouldn't be able to change your alignment when you research "Xeno Ethics". If you're evil, you're evil. Dumping cash into space doesn't make you a good person.

- Either change moral choices to benefit everyone, as per this thread has mentioned, or simply make the 'good choice' techs dramatically more powerful. You take short-term losses for long-term gains, and Evil should be vice-versa - reduce the power of their end-game techs, as they're the ones getting +30% research, production, soldiering bonuses all the damn time.

- Neutral should get their own choices, a mix of both worlds, small improvements. Like the government party "Universalists", they're jacks of all trades, masters of none. Neutral isn't really "neutral" in that they're apathetic towards everything, but they're simply practical.

- Also, I still insist that the Mind Control Center is bugged and never was supposed to have 100% economy, as there's no mention of that bonus anywhere in the improvement, and it also doesn't do anything influence-wise.

- And yes, it IS SPACEballs, Honshu, as you performed the equivalent of confusing Luke Skywalker and Captain Kirk. Eat wangmeat you pretentious turd.
Reply #55 Top
EBIL ALL THE WAY

lets remember santa anna and his tactics HE ALMOST RETOOK TEXAS but he slept to much so guys choose evil go commando killing spree and STAY AWAKE NO NAPS
Reply #56 Top
Good pays off in RL -- both in the short and in the long term. Although there's occasionally a short-term price to pay.

Evil, on the other hand, often leads to short-term gain or pleasure. For example: the petty crook who robs the corner convenience store gains $35. But evil leads to distinct disadvantages: the petty crook gets caught and goes to jail -- or perhaps gets shot and killed in the process of committing a felony.

"Big time" RL evil types always pay in the end, too. Offhand, I can't think of any evil dictators who ended well. But I can think of quite a few who died horribly. And their names always rot after they are gone.

Did Stalin ever have a good economy deriving from what amounted to slave labor? Did Mao? Did enforced slave labor result in production advantages for the Nazis over the industries of the allied nations?

Slaves make for lousy employees. Slaves are about the least productive type of laborers that exist. Free men produce......"free" being understood in an economic sense. While slaves will shirk every chance that they get.

I agree with those who say that this game, as it's currently structured, is unbalanced. Further, I'll say that it's also unrealistic.

But hey: a game where a galaxy is being fought over by numerous alien races? Since when is that scenario 'realistic', anyway? ;)
Reply #57 Top
Terrible example. For one, the concept of Nazi Germany using slaves is a new one to me.

Secondly, they had technology unlike that seen anywhere else. Between Germany and Italy (okay, screw Italy), they took out most of Europe. Technically, Germany shouldn't have lost. If you want to talk Evil vs. Good, the European Theater was the "Empire Strikes Back" of karmic wars.

Secondly, Mao wasn't a "failure". It's easy to put him in a negative light, but he reshaped China, and he's still a hero over there.

The problem is you're thinking "in the end". In the end, guess what? Everyone falls. Ghengis Khan conquered all of Asia and died old and successful, his empire collapsed, divided, and that was that.

In terms of 'evil', Kim Jong Il, the Saudis, and Putin all seem to be doing pretty good right now.
Reply #58 Top
Sure -- as I indicated: evil can pay quick, short-term dividends. And that's one of the reasons why it's so attractive to many.

Uh.....yes......the Nazis rounded up many people, and then used them as forced slave labor in their factories. That's the reason why Albert Speer was sentenced to prison for 20 years at Nuremberg. Many of the holocaust victims didn't die in the gas chambers. They dropped dead from being worked to death. So, yes: the Nazis used entire populations as chattel slaves. And their resulting industrial productivity vis-a-vis the allies -- just couldn't keep up.

As for those individuals whom you've named that are currently enjoying their season in the sun: well, Al Capone once lived a fancy high life in Chicago for a season, too. He didn't end that way.

BTW: Genghis Khan's empire outlasted him. *shrug* Often evil fights evil: and both sides lose in the end. "In the end" is what ultimately matters in the end. But the process used to get to that end can make all the difference as to what the nature of that end will be. Sure, good men are sometimes martyred. But they always end well regardless. And evil men sometimes die in their beds (although they often -- even usually -- don't die that way)......but they go out carrying their choices with them.
Reply #59 Top
Well, you know there are several (many, even) philosophies that start with the assumption or end with the conclusion that existence is evil. By making evil the more powerful choice the game just leans more towards those schools of thought.

Is the game balanced? No, not at all. But as the artificial slave center says in its description - the only cost for building it is a slice of your soul. "Soul" is not currently a currency implemented in GC2. But the game poses an interesting thought project - would you choose good even if it would only lead to your own disadvantage, short and long term?


I choose to think of the game as realized cynicism.

~ Wyndstar
Reply #60 Top
Hi!

Gentlebeings, many of you arguing here don't even have an account on metaverse.
Since you're not playing for scores (hence compete with evil scoremongers), why do you care about balance anyway?
Just play as you want.

BR, Iztok
Reply #61 Top
Hi!
I'd chose the dog.
1) People suck.
2) Kids suck.
3) Dog does more for me than stupid girl does for me.
End of quote

Uranium, I seriously miss an emoticon here.

BR, Iztok
Reply #62 Top
Hi!

Gentlebeings, many of you arguing here don't even have an account on metaverse.
Since you're not playing for scores (hence compete with evil scoremongers), why do you care about balance anyway?
Just play as you want.

BR, Iztok
End of quote


Well, I do have a game posted on the metaverse, but since I've been playing nothing but Twilight, I haven't posted any beyond that - and that one is at a lower difficulty than I normally play anyway. I don't have it linked to my sig, true, but it's there.

Anyway, why should playing on metaverse have anything to do with wanting good to be a more viable choice? It doesn't just have to be competing with scoremongers, it could also be a matter of good being more fun to play in any GalCiv session.
Reply #63 Top

Hi!

Gentlebeings, many of you arguing here don't even have an account on metaverse.
Since you're not playing for scores (hence compete with evil scoremongers), why do you care about balance anyway?
Just play as you want.

BR, Iztok
End of quote


1) Because the metaverse is retarded and 99% of GalCiv2 players don't give two flying shits about it.

2) Are you one of those whiner crybabies who fought tooth-and-nail about the whole Galactic Stock Exchange thing too because it ruined a "strategy" based around abusing overpowered mechanics?

3) Balance is important because balance makes it FUN. If the Yor had a tech tree full if ridiculously overpowered weapons, sure, I can "play how I want" by disabling them, putting them on 'fool', or playing them myself and intentionally putting crappy weapons on my ships to 'be fair', but that's stupid.

4) No emoticon missed. There's nearly 7 billion idiots on this planet, I don't think we'll miss one.

5) Your obnoxious way of typing your posts is infuriating, to say the least.
Reply #64 Top
I do play on the metaverse, but regardless ... looking at the final score is part of the game for just about anyone, I would think. What I think we are looking for is the opportunity to play as "good" without penalty. If someone wants to play a harder/easier game ... well, that's what the "difficulty level" is all about.
Reply #65 Top
Hi!
4) No emoticon missed. There's nearly 7 billion idiots on this planet, I don't think we'll miss one.
End of quote

Good luck with such an attitude on this forum. Not many of us will miss it.

Iztok
Reply #66 Top

Hi!
4) No emoticon missed. There's nearly 7 billion idiots on this planet, I don't think we'll miss one.

Good luck with such an attitude on this forum. Not many of us will miss it.

Iztok

End of quote


I'm shaking in my boots just imagining what someone with your kind of power could do. Please don't pound out a frustratingly polite request to the moderator you don't actually know, starting with "Hi!" and ending with "BR, Iztok" requesting that I be banned for offending your delicate, Christian sensibilities. No really, I'm sorry, I really am, that you somehow believe you own this forum because you've been telling people "HI!" for 4 years. Just please don't ask strangers to do things to me, that'd just ruin my day. I'd probably cut myself with all the e-angst that would just build up.
:SNIFF!: :SNIFF!: :SNIFF!: :SNIFF!: :SNIFF!: :SNIFF!: :SNIFF!: :SNIFF!:

Good luck being a worthless wet noodle for your whole life. No one will miss you amongst the rest of the boring failures who have no personality whatsoever.

--

For the record, I concluded that you were a noisy piece of crap when you made a post in huge font telling us that we have no right to talk about balance because we don't "COMPETE" in the metaverse.

Oh believe you me, I know what "COMPETITION" in games is all about. I know more than most people. Exploiting, cheating, abusing game rules. That's how you win. And that's how I know why you came in here telling us that we should shut up about nerfing your precious "STRATEGIES".

(SEE I CAN USE BIG FONT TO ACCUSE PEOPLE TOO)
Reply #67 Top
Urainium. Selfishness is the bases of evil. Your choice of keeping your dog over the girl is evil because it makes your comfort and pleasure over some one weaker than you.

Either that or you belong to Peta too and that too is evil.

Duh
Reply #68 Top
For those of you who are beginning to flame one another, I would like to propose three ethical choices in accordance with the present GalCiv2 universe:

1) Apologize for unkind words, and determine that in the future you will addess issues, not attack persons. Result: You will be thrown off the forum for one week, and all Stardock products will cost you double the normal price. In the future, you will be given the opportunity to purchase a product which causes left-handed people with blue eyes to view you a bit more favorably.

2) Ignore the situation and move on. Result: One free Stardock product given to you immediately, and all future products will be half price. In the future, you will be given the opportunity to purchase a product which enables you to come up with perfect "stingers" to reply to any flames against you.

3) Hack the forum servers and find out where your flame opponent lives. Burn down his house, kill his pets, and spread slanderous lies that cause him to lose his job. Result: All current and future Stardock products are given to you free of charge. In the future, you will be given the opportunity to purchase a product which causes anyone who flames you to painfully disintegrate into a pile of dust.

 ;) <-- PLEASE NOTE EMOTICON!!!!

In all seriousness ... lets stick to issues and not attack people. (Especially if you are arguing for making GOOD a better game option!)
Reply #69 Top
I usually go the ignore route so I probably shouldn't even post on this thread since I'm only helping to keep it from fading into obscurity. But, I would like to comment on something mention earlier regarding the cost of ethical alignment. For the longest time I thought the cost of alignment selection was a constant, but it varies depending on your alignment at the time. Looking in the Civ Manager on Governments and Ethics, whichever you are leaning toward costs zero when selecting that alignment. So, if you pick an evil race and want to go Neutral for free, you need to take Good selections when presented the opportunity. You also need to keep an eye on your alignment graph to make sure you don't overshoot one way or the other. Since it's usually pretty early in the game, it's an important and rather fun consideration.

Reply #70 Top
Hang on, I'm trying to learn how to hack forums.
Reply #71 Top
dude THIS OS A SPACE BATTLE GAME evil always wins in battles and to take a planet what do you do????
Reply #72 Top
Hah kingefly, every time I go evil I get squashed early on. with Nuetral or good I usally am quietly ignored till I am ready to start cutting throats. and with TirQuan training when I get invaded when I just send in the granny brigade and they mop up the bad guys. Thank goodness Invasion techs are so cheap.

Duh
Reply #73 Top
umm... the good/evil business is completely messed up in regards to real life.

Sample event (real life version)

A famine has just begun throughout the galaxy. Trillions are starving. What should you do?

Put all necessary resources into producing food, and donate any surpluses to the less fortunate beings in the universe. (+30 influence, -300 bc, +5 morale for a while, -10 military production for a while)

Encourage the production of food to feed our citizens, and sell the surpluses to fund the production. (+5 influence, +500 bc, +5 morale for a while, -10 military production for a while)

Hey, soylent green is people, isn't it? Why don't we market soylent green to all those starving unfortunates out there, and use the population we don't need to feed to make some more battleships? (+2100 bc, +5 morale for a while, +20 military production, -3 billion people)

you may think that evil is a good choice, but this is real life, so eventually the secret gets out, and you get massive morale penalties and everybody hates you and your citizens F'ING SHOOT YOU. REPEATEDLY. And then they throw you out the window of the mile-high palace you bought with their blood and toil because THEY DON'T LIKE YOU. Do the morale bonuses for good and do serious morale penalties for evil, as well as a population growth penalty. That will bring it closer to the excellent balance in KotOR, where light siders became buzzsaws of doom and dark siders became one man lightning storms. That's fair. So is having your people hate you if you suck their souls out to make a bit more money and having them love you if you spend your money to make their lives better. And even though I may not play on the metaverse, I have as many dollars invested in an enjoyable game as you, and this change would make it much more so.


Just a side note, you should see what happens with neutral torians. They get subpar research buildings as their weakness, but the NLC makes them brilliant researchers. Evil doesn't erase any civ flaws as easily as that.
Reply #74 Top
Not to be contrary here or anything, but in this game, "Evil" is about preserving your Civ, not your own person. As long as you're ruthless enough to take any measures (going only by success) to advance your Civ, you're Evil.

That means that you could actually care about your Civ. In fact, nearly all the Evil choices are quite good for your Civ, in the long run. Even without propaganda, the naked truth of that would be questionable at worst to members of your own Civ, and heroic at best.

Sure, you don't mind nuking anybody else as long as it secures you an advantage, but the overall good of your Civ matters to you.
Reply #75 Top
Hi!
@Uranium
End of quote

No need to send a request to moderators. I trust them they'll do their job.

But I have to admit you have one point. I shouldn't put my "why do you care" post so explicitly. To my defense I'll say I'm a bit tired of those "evil owns, good suxx" posts popping-up every few weeks, but actually not achieving anything. I DO feel the time passing.

@Stardock
End of quote

Please put an end to those bickerings about balance. It seems the default "Play as you wish" isn't sufficient. Just tell us officialy that the evil in GC-2 has prevailed, hence it gets so many bonuses. Or any other explantion. Just don't keep quiet. Please!

BR, Iztok