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Can we tone down the unique tech trading some?

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Can we tone down the unique tech trading some?

from GalCiv2 Forums
I like TA for the most part, but one thing that really bugs me is how much unique technology can be traded. The Yor have some excellent soldering techs that can turn the biggest pansies into a dangerous enemy on the ground. The iconians have this excellent +50% econ bonus building that seems really overpowered in others' hands. The Drengin and Korath can certainly share their insights as slavers, but how does Pain Amplification make sense in the hands of the Altarians? And the poor Arceans should never be bullied into giving away weather control! That technology is entirely too strong to just pass around the galaxy to anybody who doesn't desperately need the boost (i.e., the Arceans for their navigation centers).

But more than just asking, "what makes sense to trade?", being able to trade for so many unique techs turns TA into DA with extra content. When you can get a hold of so many "unique" techs, everybody ends up being entirely too similar mid-game.

And possibly even more annoying is the fact that it's so vital to some races to get at other race's unique techs. Playing with tech trading off is no longer an option with some races having no access to starbase mining modules, good econ techs, morale techs (Hello, Thalans!), etc.

If at all possible I'd like to see the official, metaverse-friendly tech trees be (a) more balanced so races like the Thalan aren't impossible to keep happy (I assume balancing will happen anyway, but it's part of my rant, so I gotta mention it), and (b) most of the interesting and powerful unique techs flagged untradeable. Stealing techs via invasion and espionage wouldn't be as annoying to me, because it's impossible to guarantee you'll get Awesome Unbalancing Technology X at the specific moment you need it most. But trading is just getting silly.

If SD wants this game to encourage playing each race due to the awesome differences, they need to disallow players from acquiring those differences in-game.
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Reply #101 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Tech trading needs to be in the game. As a player who is usually always number 1 in tech in my games, i have to have tech trading in so that the AI can play a little catch up.


The problem I see right now is that you can have multiple versions of the same tech. Korath have Cutthroat Trade. Yor have Economic Efficiency 2, Humans have Xeno Economics. Each provide tech gives you a econ Bonus. Cutthroat is +5%. Yor get 10% for each tech, and Humans have +5% at the beginning of the tree and at the end. Thus, if you trade for each tech you would get each bonus.

How to solve the tech trading dilemma is that technical implementation of each new technology is different for every race.

That means you still have tech trading but overall balance is still there, because the bonus 1 race gets isnt going to be there for another race because their implementation of the technology is different.

There still should be unique techs. The number of these should be small though, the trading of them has to be factored into their balancing.


In terms of the previous example.

Pain Amplifiers are gained when you research the first technology victory path tech. Thus, if you trade or the AI Trades Tech Victory 1 to another race they gain their first Tech Victory Technology. So if the Drengin traded it to the Korath, the Korath would have Pain Amplifiers, but they could also trade it to the Humans and the Humans would get something totally different.
Reply #102 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

Uh, no you can't. Because it certainly doesn't stop the AI from still abusing it, it just shackles the player. How do you make Drengin and Korath able to trade their pain techs, but only with each other?
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I'd have to check how this works, but there is an Alignment variable that might be used to limit the spread of that tech to evil races. I think the Korx are the only other race that starts as pure evil, so it's not a perfect solution, but it's a start. Anyway, the point was to show that there's a lot of potential for user modding *most* of the things you're asking for.

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Reply #103 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
- No trade brokering. I will likely rarely use this, but that's because I'd use another option. But from what I hear, it's a pretty popular idea.
- No unique tech trading. Again, not what I would use, but still popular.
- No non-native tech trading. This is what I'd use. This is the "if it's not somewhere in your tech tree, you don't get to use it" option. No more Yor abusing trading to build enormous economies. No Torians with research worlds full of Discovery Spheres with 800 research points.

That's what I want, and that's what we need. More options.
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You forget the "some unique techs tradable, but the majority non-tradable AND no trade brokering. I like the idea of aquiring some minor techs that are not in my tech-tree, because.. well.. it makes sense. It's things like "Slave pits" and "Underwater habitats" that are tailored for ONE very specific race or culture that makes absolutely no sense.

Reply #104 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I don't think the "mod it yourself" argument mitigates the need to balance the stock game. There's the Metaverse issue of course, but also, people shouldn't have to mod the game right out of the box.

Reply #105 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

I don't think the "mod it yourself" argument mitigates the need to balance the stock game. There's the Metaverse issue of course, but also, people shouldn't have to mod the game right out of the box.
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I agree, and I hope the devs do end up tailoring the game along the general lines that most people seem to want here. Tech trading has always been problematic in this game, and turning it off isn't ideal either (IMO). That removes a much-needed source of income during the early phases of the new, tighter TA economy.

But if the devs don't tighten it up more, then there's at least some recourse to modding it closer to whatever your ideal is.
Reply #106 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

- No trade brokering. I will likely rarely use this, but that's because I'd use another option. But from what I hear, it's a pretty popular idea.
- No unique tech trading. Again, not what I would use, but still popular.
- No non-native tech trading. This is what I'd use. This is the "if it's not somewhere in your tech tree, you don't get to use it" option. No more Yor abusing trading to build enormous economies. No Torians with research worlds full of Discovery Spheres with 800 research points.

That's what I want, and that's what we need. More options.
You forget the "some unique techs tradable, but the majority non-tradable AND no trade brokering. I like the idea of aquiring some minor techs that are not in my tech-tree, because.. well.. it makes sense. It's things like "Slave pits" and "Underwater habitats" that are tailored for ONE very specific race or culture that makes absolutely no sense.


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You would still need to do other racial general techs - the Torians and research centers and the like? Gamebreaking.

The Yor, for example, are by design economically weak, but you can just trade for Star Federation and mitigate your weakness. The same thing with the Drath and certain population-growth boosting techs.

It doesn't make any sense at all for the Terrans to want Pain techs from the Drengin, but it does for the Korath.
Reply #107 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

Yes and no. No one in this discussion thinks that Tech Trading as it stands does not need a big fix. What I and others are arguing is that simply banning it is not the answer. Right now trading technologies is too cheep and easy. What is needed is a way to make it more ballenced without making it illeagal. The other point is that anything that requires a major overhaul will probably not happen until GalCiv III.

What is likely to happen:
Most unique racial techs will be flagged no trade, no steal. Tech trading will continue as before with a few less techs avalible on the market.

What I would like to see as a solution (but probly will not happen):
Instead of getting a tech a outright when you trade for it or capture it, you would gain a space on your technology tree to start researching the technology. Buying or capturing a tech that is on your tech tree would give you research toward that tech when you do actually research it. So instead of instantly getting Impulse Drive when buying it, it appears on you tech tree the first time (if not already there,) The second time you get 25% of the research needed to finish the tech, and so on. There would need to be a check to insure that each tech can only be sold once between any two races.
This would insure that buying high end techs would still require significant research time before use, and I would even agree that research times for 'unique' might need to be doubled or even quadrupled for an alien race. You could still get specific alien techs if you are really willing to work for them, but the free for all would be severely limited.

Scincerely,

[email protected]
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I really dig that idea - trading for techs giving you access to the tech, but not the immediate gains. That would certainly make tech trading less nutty. Yeah, you might swipe a dozen econ techs, but now you've got to figure out where to focus your scientists! Kinda reminds me of x-com. "Hey, boss, check out this new gun we picked up! Of course, it'll take 6 weeks to figure out how to use it, and we'll have to divert a lot of resources from laser weapons research...."

Trade-offs are good. And if the unique techs had a boost to cost for races who don't have the tech in their tree, you might have some really tough choices to make. Trade everything you have to get weather control just to spend 20 weeks learning how to use it, or stick with what you know?

Obviously you're right, that won't happen in GC2, but it's a nice idea all the same.

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This will still mean that most races can trade 99% of their tech trees with most races.
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Uranium, what game are you playing? Or maybe it's your definition of "most" that's a bit screwy.... Most races have more than 1% unique techs on their trees.

I'm all for giving lots of options, and "no trading outside your tree" would be a fine option if you ask me, but I agree with Scintor here (this is truly a scary day) - we need smarter AI and better trading logic to make unique tech trading less common and/or more expensive. A full ban as the only option is definitely not desirable for me, at least.
Reply #108 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

The Yor, for example, are by design economically weak, but you can just trade for Star Federation and mitigate your weakness. The same thing with the Drath and certain population-growth boosting techs.

It doesn't make any sense at all for the Terrans to want Pain techs from the Drengin, but it does for the Korath.
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This is a point I don't think they'll be able to fix. Clearly if a race hasn't got a "general" tech in its tree, it's a sticky situation (without imposing an extremely strict trade limitation). It would really be nice to have techs marked "willingness to trade to (yor|torian|human|...)" such that Star Federation is rarely traded to the Yor (at least without them paying a whole lot), but happily traded to everybody else.

Maybe a possible fix SD could actually do before GC3 is a modifier based on race and ability/improvement type. So the Yor are known to be economically deficient? Fine - the AI knows to jack the price by 2x for all econ techs. 3x if the tech gives an instant boost (as opposed to new improvements or government types). This option may be big, but it wouldn't affect trade logic as much as other fixes. Scan techs in trade, see if any provide an instant boost to a weakness of the recipient, if so, add some % to the tech cost based on race's weakness level (weaker in an ability means more difficult to get tech). Same deal with building boosts.

An even more generic solution would be to actually scan the races in trade - look at all inherent factors first (anything permanently giving boosts to abilities - not starbases though, since they're not permanent), then potential factors (i.e., technology that hasn't been researched). Based on this assessment, you can determine dynamically if a specific build of a given race is weak in a particular area. That is to say, if the Yor chose the +30% econ pick, they won't be ripped off as much for econ tech trading, because the techs aren't as necessary to that build of Yor. The 10% boost from Star Federation is a smaller relative boost than it would be if the Yor hadn't chosen any econ picks.

Am I making any sense?
Reply #109 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

Uranium, what game are you playing? Or maybe it's your definition of "most" that's a bit screwy.... Most races have more than 1% unique techs on their trees.
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Fine, 4%. No more than 5% at any rate. There's over 200 techs that fit into the 'general' tree, and Terrans, for example, only have 7 or 8 'unique techs'.

Clearly being unable to trade these techs will cripple the game.

Yes, the Drengin / Korath, Iconians, and Torians theoretically have more that they cannot trade, but these are mostly general ALTERNATIVE techs. Precursor technology, pain techs, and research techs, and the amusing part is that most people, even the trade abuse supporters, generally agree that these techs should be restricted anyway because the Torians were never meant to build Discovery Spheres anyway.

Under my model you'll still be able to trade 96% of your techs with most other races depending on who it is. The Drengin will be more restricted trading with other races but will be able to share more with the Korath. The Altarians and the Drath will be able to support each other as well.

There's pretty much nothing wrong with my method of restricting tech trading aside from people getting this fictional idea that suddenly you'll never be able ot trade anything ever again because having ONLY 200 techs to trade with everyone else is totally going to ruin trading and you migth as well have it off anyway.
Reply #110 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Ah, but some unique techs really work with anybody, and make sense to be tradeable. The real problems arise on the special-case techs. The warp fleet bubbles make sense for anybody to get except perhaps the arceans due to their "speed limit".

I think the best solution (short of rewriting trading or providing a dozen pre-game options) is a combination of methods we've all discussed:
* All techs that don't make sense in widespread usage (Pain Amplification) are marked untradeable.
* All techs that are highly useful to everybody (weather control) get a much lower "willingness to trade" value.
* However, if it's on your tree, you can trade it no matter what. (Korath + Drengin, Altarian + Drath, general techs).
* If it offsets a major racial weakness (Star Federation for the Yor), it's either very expensive to get, or unattainable (the race doesn't "get" how to work those techs).
* If it offsets a "minor" racial weakness (if such things exist for a given race), it's simply more expensive to get.

I'm sure SD won't have time to implement something like this, but as a general case it seems to cover the largest common concerns.
Reply #111 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I think the best solution (short of rewriting trading or providing a dozen pre-game options) is a combination of methods we've all discussed:
* All techs that don't make sense in widespread usage (Pain Amplification) are marked untradeable.
* All techs that are highly useful to everybody (weather control) get a much lower "willingness to trade" value.
* However, if it's on your tree, you can trade it no matter what. (Korath + Drengin, Altarian + Drath, general techs).
* If it offsets a major racial weakness (Star Federation for the Yor), it's either very expensive to get, or unattainable (the race doesn't "get" how to work those techs).
* If it offsets a "minor" racial weakness (if such things exist for a given race), it's simply more expensive to get.
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All of these (except the can trade no matter what bit) are highly possible to implement. The restrictions would have to apply to everyone (so... everyone would have a difficult time trading for Star Fed and such), but it is possible.

As for the Arceans, I don't really like that Speed is taken to a "disadvantage" to them. I'd rather it be a "different, but equal situation" with the Arceans gaining good access to non-engine speed sources (the warp bubbles, military speed boosting starbase modules (Navigational Data!), and passive speed boosts) that end up being just-about-equal (eventually anyway), assuming the conditions are right, of course.

Of course, I'd like to see the passive speed bonuses from the engine techs taken away to make the Speed bonuses races get from their non-engine techs all the more special too. Move those passive bonuses into the engines themselves, or just leave them out entirely :)
Reply #112 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I agree what is the point of having racial techs if all the bloody races tech spam them.Kinda kills the expansion pack.
Reply #113 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

* All techs that are highly useful to everybody (weather control) get a much lower "willingness to trade" value.
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Actually, this might be the best use of that Trade Brokering idea.

Make them ridiculously valuable to the AI - AND you can only get them if you are Friendly or better with them - AND they are restricted to being brokered.

I think it's a fair compromise. You can still get them, but it's both extremely hard AND keeps the flavor of the races separate as it's unlikely that you'll get too many of these.
Reply #114 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I haven't had much TA time in the last few weeks. Has anyone noticed whether the "unique" techs are moving around less among the computer players in the latest build?
Reply #115 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I'm hoping that unique techs are harder to get and that we also get in the colony screen a new tab "Foreign Improvements"
Reply #116 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I love tech-trading as is. It's probably my second favorite part of Twilight of the Arnor right now (behind the unique tech trees).

One thing the argument that "everyone ends up with the same tech in the end" misses is that their is a difference between having a tech early game and having the same tech late, as well as value to being able to count on having a specific tech rather than hoping to trade for it. I think the current system works well.
Reply #117 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
this would be annoying, but here's my idea

sure you can trade lets say, weather control to the Dominion of Korx but the DoK wouldn't be able to use it as effectively. When you trade a unique tech. it transfers but doesn't work as 100 percent as the civilization that is used to using it
Reply #118 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I love tech-trading as is. It's probably my second favorite part of Twilight of the Arnor right now (behind the unique tech trees).

One thing the argument that "everyone ends up with the same tech in the end" misses is that their is a difference between having a tech early game and having the same tech late, as well as value to being able to count on having a specific tech rather than hoping to trade for it. I think the current system works well.
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Trading unique techs often happens immediately after getting said tech - I check the Arceans every few turns to see if they have Weather Control yet, and who knows how often the AI trades their newest techs? And if trading is still happening as it was when I first posted (I also haven't put in much time in a while), there is no "hoping to trade" for anything. The unique techs will be researched and traded, and relatively early in the game.

If you like the tech trading, that's up to you, but your counterargument is flawed.
Reply #119 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I love tech-trading as is. It's probably my second favorite part of Twilight of the Arnor right now (behind the unique tech trees).One thing the argument that "everyone ends up with the same tech in the end" misses is that their is a difference between having a tech early game and having the same tech late, as well as value to being able to count on having a specific tech rather than hoping to trade for it. I think the current system works well.Trading unique techs often happens immediately after getting said tech - I check the Arceans every few turns to see if they have Weather Control yet, and who knows how often the AI trades their newest techs? And if trading is still happening as it was when I first posted (I also haven't put in much time in a while), there is no "hoping to trade" for anything. The unique techs will be researched and traded, and relatively early in the game.If you like the tech trading, that's up to you, but your counterargument is flawed.
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I've only played the latest build, but at first (based on this thread actually) I did count on being able to trade for what I needed. It did not go as planned. I've only been able to get weather control once, and I played for over 100 turns as the Korx before finally being able to trade for a decent morale tech, which really hurt compared to having the technology earlier. It seems my experience has differed from yours on this.

I do agree that weather control should either be untradeable or on the list of technologies that are more expensive to trade for. It is a game changer. Other than that, though, I think the system works very well.
Reply #120 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I think tech trading should be restricted somewhat. Some of it doesn't make sense. For example in my current game the Torains have abandoned using factories and are employing 'Slave pits', the Yor are spaming Stock exchanges and even some of the 'cannot be traded techs' like the Iconian 'molecular fabricator'(their super anti-matter plant thingy) is beign built on everbodies world.
Reply #121 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Well, after playing a lot with the latest beta, I don't think the problem is solved. I have had a tough time getting weather control, but only because the arceans are way behind in the tech race. Everything else has been traded like mad. If it's unique and useful, most everybody has it. If it's unique and not useful, most everybody still has it. As the Korx, getting a free 10% morale boost from that first arena tech of the Drengin's (Arena of Agony?) was great - don't even need to build the structure and I get the boost. Nabbing the Torian university before I had any good research buildings was super helpful, too. It just doesn't seem that tech trading has changed any since my first post.

I suspect it will get some amount of overhauling, as even the Yor's "Efficiency Studies II" (is that the right name?) was up for trade, and that one is clearly a mistake since none of their other econ techs are tradeable. But sadly I doubt SD can easily fix the fact that the Yor can get Stock Exchanges, as those are a non-unique tech. Oh well.