KOTOR2, another unfinished game

The same company produced both NWN2 and KOTOR2, both un-finished, buggy and poor ending games.

Both sequels to a game that left it's mark.

Bioware (I think is the name of the guilty company) should be forbidden to make any sequel again.

KOTOR was so awesome. KOTOR2 just sucked. I remember so many things about the original. I played the story over several times and tried new things each time. About all I remember from the KOTOR2 was running around an old mine in my underwear, training in my underwear aboard the ship with some chick, and landing on some moon (may or may not have been in my underwear).

I also remember the cover had a picture of some sweet Sith Lord, like Darth Nihilus or something. I remember just rolling over Sith Lords but I don't even remember fighting him. What a crap game

For the record, Bioware made the first KOTOR but handed the second off to a company called Obsidian.

But yeah KOTOR was awesome and thought I liked parts of KOTOR 2 it got reaaalll loopy towards the end. Some of the characters and ideas put forth in KOTOR 2 were good but the game is painfully rushed and buggy as all get out. And Nihilus was a complete cream puff which is sad .

Obsidian actually developed both Neverwinter Nights 2 and Knights of the Old Republic 2. Bioware are perhaps one of the best existing development houses, so it's an important distinction.

In their defence, I played the latter (before playing the original KOTOR, actually) and neither had a problem finishing the game nor any major issues with bugs, and this was a week or so after it came out. Neverwinter Nights 2 wasn't buggy so much as incredibly poorly coded - my rig should have eaten it alive, but instead performance was very poor. Obsidian obviously screwed up, but consider it this way: NWN2 may have been slow, and its ending may have been poor, but it contained some excellent voice acting and a well-executed storyline. KOTOR2 flagged towards the end, but featured some brilliant characters and escaped from the rigid, cartoon-like good/evil divide of the original, replacing it with a much more subtle system that gave the game a much better storyline, to my mind.

Just my tuppence.

One of the reasons that Obsidions games are so buggy and unfinished is that the publisher doesn't give them alot of room to work with if the games not 100%, they're actually contractually forced to release the game before they want to. At least thats what they said for KOTOR2, they're not allowed to work on it till its done they work on it up to the deadline and then its thrown out.

You are correct, LucasArts forced Obsidian to release early so as not to miss the christmas rush. Unfortunately, I witnessed first hand how good of a game Obsidian had made out of the 1st 7/10ths of the release and how horribly buggy, broken, nonsensical and very clearly rushed the rest of the game was. Obsidian apparently petitioned Lucasarts to allow them to at least patch the game afterwards and add in the content they had to cut. Lucasarts declined. So, I have taken it upon myself to decline purchasing further Lucasarts releases. I played NWN2 and did not have any problems with it, and while it ended abruptly, they at least tied up the loose ends in the sequel. Bioware was not involved with KOTOR2 beyond selling the rights to make it, support, and letting them use their engine.

As for Stardock, you guys rock. I am definately buying Twilight and am looking forward to whatever is next. I think I saw something about fantasy tbs. Huh, imagine that something that I have been wanting for years. I worry about you guys though, if you dont make a world war 2 shooter, or an MMO soon the Gods of Gaming may smite you with their Vorpal Holy Avenger of Creativity Drain + 5.

To be fair, KOTOR 2 had superior writing compared to KOTOR thanks to Chris Avellone (who also wrote for Planescape Torment), so we should give Obsidian that much.

Yes, KOTOR 2 and NWN 2 were both unfinished and extremely buggy. But I heard the NWN 2 expansion/patches make it much more playable (haven't played the expansion though).

That's too bad about LucasArts not letting Obsidian finish it. I would definitely go back and play it if it were a little more polished.

And yes, Bioware passed on KOTOR2 to work on another game that was great but the title eludes me. It was set in feudal Japan. KOTOR2 was the work of Obsidian, yes.

BTW, Stardock, I don't believe I will ever have to rant about these very issues with you guys. Keep up the good work!

Here is one of the video game axiom that every dev should learn:

A game should not be enjoyable only after mod/patch/expansion have been downloaded/bought. Why?

Because if they actually rush to sell the game, the people who will buy it more for christmas (the ACTUAL target of the rushing) are going to end up with a poor game.

and then all the review sites give it poor scores... and the people who actually buy games as a christmas gift (ie, non gaming family members) are not gonna buy it (At least I am assuming they look for "top rated" games to buy rather then just randomly plucking something off a shelf).

Yes its a shame... but I am so glad galciv does NOT suffer from this problem. The game is released when its ready. not before that. And it is patched with new and exciting content later (not with cut content, but with litterally new and previously unthought of content)

I was a huge fan of KOTOR 1 and NWN, for that matter anytime Bioware comes out with a new game I tend to get excited (Dragon Age anyone?). When Bioware started making mainly X-Box games I went into mourning. Based solely on NWN and KOTOR 1, I bought the expansion for NWN, NWN 2, and KOTOR 2 all made by Obsidian and have been nothing but disapointed. Heck, I got to the last boss in NWN 2, died and uninstalled it from my computer; not because I couldn't beat the boss but because I just didn't care anymore.

It is because of these experiences that I will never buy another game made by Obsidian. I can understand that they were pressured to release early etc. but the fact remains that they released some pretty bad games.

Then again companies like Obsidian remind us of just how good Stardock is to us.

Edit: spelling

Jade Empire, perhaps?

Obsidian are a fine development studio ok, it isnt really their fault. This team has many of the key members which made the great RPG's like Baldurs gate and Planescape: Torment.

If you are looking for blame look to their publishers

Lucasarts and Atari.

These guys forced Obsidian to release both NWN2 (atari) and KOTOR2 (lucasarts) far too early. NWN2 is looking in much better shape these days due to the expantion and the patches.

I'm praying that Atari (in financial strife) dies a quick death once and for all.

Even "the witcher" would have been a much better game without their involvement. The sooner they go down, giving other publishers the oportunity to buy rights to their franchises the better.

However, You will be thankful to know bioware are back on the scene taking developing duties for Kotor3

People really need to seperate the concepts of publishers and developers. There are few development studios that are cash rich enough to be able to function without a publisher, and many publishers are to blame for unfinished products, by forcing the develepment teams to release a product to early to catch holidays seasons and so forth.

Bioware made KOTOR, but lucas arts was a pain so they said "goodbye and good luck" and send it over to obsidian to work on KOTOR2. Obsidian did an awesome job at first, but they had to release an unfinished product due to lucas arts forcing them to, they petitioned them to allow them to patch it, and were declined. There is a restoration project finishing the game to what it is supposed to be, its almost done.
http://www.team-gizka.org/

Neverwinter nights was another bioware awesomeness, this time with Wizards of the coast (DnD) owning the licenses, and atari as the publish they have both been giving bioware a lot of grief. Atari made them release a buggy product too early, and in fact many of the premium modules (you buy extra campaigns, like a mini expansion) were canceled at the lat moment due to wizards saying "they don't fit with our theme" and nixing them... The hex coda is the best of those, and was finished and released as a free download by the design team leader (originally a free modder hired by bioware to make a premium module).
The told wizards to shove off and handed off NWN2 to obsidian yet again... who was forced to release too early AGAIN and released a buggy as hell game, that was completely unplayable due to bugs until the first expansion came around (it was clear to me that obsidian was working around wizards to get as much fixed in the engine while dallying on making the actual module, since the content shouldn't have taken nearly that long to make)

Bioware has had enough of bad publisher and copyright owners and have decided to break the mold with Mass Effect, where they hired writers to create their own universe complete in their own control and in their own copyright, they may do with it whatever they want with no limitations. So far its going good. Though it was an "xbox exclusive" for a few months until they announced that they "changed their minds" (read: their contract with MS expired) and will be making a PC version... which is set to release in 3 months from today, on may of 08.

Oh there was jade empire there too... another "xbox exclusive" that later came out for the PC.
Don't despair about them releasing only xbox games, look it up, all their games end up on the PC later. And they are awesome beyond belief.

Well, I can agree with this. KOTOR2 was too rushed, and I didn't like the new GUI, and NWN2 has the most annoying f**king camera a game has EVER seen. I haven't been able to get into NWN2, because of it, so I can't really have an opinion on the game.

Yeah, both Bioware and Obsidian are good developers. The people at Obsidian are also talented programmers/designers/writers/etc. whom came from the former Black Isle development company. Although Obsidian hasn't had much leeway with their games, the stories have definitely been interesting. For some, it's hard to get into the games that have moral issues painted as just black and white, so the large amounts of grey area that Obsidian's stories work in is rather enjoyable, in my opinion. A lot of people tend to knock on them because of the rather loose ends that their games have, but when playing the bulk of the game, you get a very good feel for the talented work that went into that, and it really can't be denigrated nor should their game as a whole be judged upon just the ending or latter part of the game.

Also, the reason NWN2 had/has a lot of bugs is because the engine that Obsidian got from Bioware was the original one that had not been updated/fixed/patched like NWN1 had undergone during its time. So in essence, Obsidian had/has to deal with generally the same issues that NWN1 went through during its early years. Growing pains, so to speak.

I don't think I need to mention much of anything about Bioware. I'm mainly looking forward to Mass Effect on PC.

Jythier, yep - that's it. Jade Empire.

Ravenstrike, I thought that the KOTOR3 rumor and Bioware's involvement with the title are both rumors. Do you have a source on that? Even though I'm bashing KOTOR2 I am at the core a Star Wars fanboy and will surely pick up a third installment

KOTOR2 was fairly fun, it was just that the end was extremely rushed. When I see the Ebon Hawk fly off after defeating Kreia, and then seeing the credits, I'm like, "That's it??!!". Darth Nihilius was supposed to be the big bad guy, and you only see him once. Bioware should learn to put up with demanding publishers. Or better yet, move to Stardock!    However, endless beta will certainly push back the release, but at least it will be complete.

No doubt. I'm of the same opinion. Obsidian has let me down so much with two franchises I have much love for. Anyway, on a more positive note, I am so stoked for Dragon Age (DA). I only hope that BioWare does the x-pack and the sequel.

Obsidian found their way again with the NWN2 expansion pack; Mask of the Betrayer.  It was what the original game should have been.  Well written, faster pace, more "fun" less "work" and a lot of improvements to the UI and engine.

KOTOR2 was one of the most disappointing games I've played in years.  After the greatness of the first one, I had high hopes for the second.  Even higher once I was told that how I interacted with each character would have subtle influences on the outcome of the game.  Sadly they had to scrap that about half way through the game and were never able to implement it properly.  A lot of blame for this one gets laid at LucasArt's feet since they reportedly forced the game out for a holiday release, something they couldn't do with Bioware (bioware has a lot more pull with a publisher than a brand new studio like Obsidian).

I found both NWN2 and KOTOR2 superseding the originals in most aspects even if both games seems unfinished. I also find “Mask of the betrayer” being one of the best things that happened the rpg market since Bloodlines, even though I have high hopes for mass effect (and I have not played “The witcher”).

Seems like industry standard practices give too much clout to publishers who know nothing of game development (apparently) and not enough to the developers who actually know how to make a good game. A smallish studio without much clout can't afford to try to stand up to a giant like LucasArts or Atari, and so ends up blackening its own reputation for somebody else's decision. Sure, a company like Bioware can basically say "You want us to develop your game, you publish at any time you like *AFTER* we decide the game is finished." A very recent start-up like Obsidian had no such ability.

The moral of the story is that the industry is broken and marketing is allowed to make engineering decisions. That's never good in any company.

I guess this is a reversal of the stance I expressed in one of the DRM threads, where I said the developer has at least partial responsibility for publishing decisions, because those things should be established in the contract between the developer and publisher, and if the contract is not acceptable, the developer should walk. It's still technically true, both about DRM and about early releases - but I'm coming to see that the publishers seem to have enough clout that smaller developers will go out of business before they find a publisher that's not going to screw them over with horrible publishing decisions of one sort or another.

When talking release dates, I think retailers have some pull there too. Get it to me for Christmas or we won't stock it at all kind of thing. Maybe not, but probably. They push on the publisher, the publisher pushes on the designer, and you end up with crap. So next time, yell at the guy working behind the counter at GameStop, because he's the only one not at fault!

Both KOTOR2 and NWN2 suffered primarily because of the klutzy graphics engine. Both of them had pretty strong storylines, although KOTOR2's in particular got truncated thanks to those (beep)s at Lucasarts.

If people weren't so obsessed by the cosmetics (graphics and sound), we wouldn't be reduced to only seeing a handful of game releases every year (it's basically impossible for a small team to produce a game these days), nor would we be forced to keep upgrading hardware just to play the latest games. And developers could spend their time on the things that *really* count.

I just hope they don't do what they've already done once: buy up the name to a reputable company and just use that instead of their "own" name. (Atari is actually Infogrames Interactive, a company with a really bad reputation, so they decided to just grab a new name instead of fixing the problems that gave them a bad rep)