Beta 3b, the Krynn and some other random thoughts

Resource mining techs are a known issue and they are working on it. Others include any module on starbases linked to techs.

Due to individual tech trees, balance based on Super Ability is no longer an issue (beta for DA woulda been the time). Now you have to look beyond the Super Ability and into the unique techs the races also get/don't get.

While I certainly understand your point about Super Abilities being far less of a balance concern than before, they are still a factor in game balance. I've played the game through at least twice on painful with each race, and though I'm far from a great GalcivII player I couldn't help but notice that the Iconians are definitely the race I'm worst with. Now, it could be with all their high maintenance buildings and relatively weak initial production that I've been unable to pull ahead by a sizeable enough margin in the beginning that I'm used to achieving with the other races.

It could certainly only be my grasp of the early Iconian game that is leaving me fumbling, but I can safely say that I've bemoaned that +50 espionage bonus they get each and every time, seeing as I've never had a strong enough economy with them until the late game (when they do indeed become powerful) to really make use of spies in a meaningful way. Spies are hard enough to use well in my experience. With the Krynn I've actually used them successfully to influence flip planets by shutting down farms/influence buildings, but with the Iconians I don't see them as so useful.

If infiltrated spies had a chance of stealing tech, destroying the improvement they were on, or stealing credits while infiltrated, I would probably bite my tongue. As it is, their usefulness is pretty limited.

As for fixing their super ability- how about this.

They can colonize any planet at 25% capacity, and start with Extreme Colonization?

That's as powerful as the Yor.

Even if it's just being able to colonize any planet at 25%, I think that would be a great ability. Since they don't get any other special powers that seems about right. They are supposed to be super adapters, right?

I disagree. The unique technology trees strengthen what the subtleties of each race are (or should be) which might make changing/rethinking starting or super abilities.

I also feel that the espionage bonus and super ability for the Iconians do not make so much sense.

100000% Agree!



Again I 100% agree. Why in the world do Iconians have 50+ espionage...they should ahve miniturization bonus.... (PRECURSOR library... I'm sure that the precursors knew a thing or two about miniturization!)



I strongly disagree here. I was able to flip Earth and Mars on Painful as Krynn with 3 Influence starbases clustered in. I have not noticed it harder at all.



Yes, and FIX THE ICONIANS, dont let this 50+espionage go through...there should be no reason they have the same + as the Krynn in that regard; and also they only get 7 custom points? Iconians are nerfed too hard!

I agree that the Krynn are very unique to play (as are most of the other races). The diversity between civs now is incredible and really adds alot to the game and makes matters much less predictable then in DA (although I have noticed that most races will start weapons production on the missile line of techs and remain there until you force them to switch with your defenses).

I also agree with ShockMeSane, the Iconians seem slightly more difficult to play at the moment (compared to Krynn, Arceans, Torians and Terrans). Their economy is less robust (even with Federalist Party) because of the maintenance costs associated with their ships. Maintain a 100+ rated military pretty much precludes an intensive espionage strategy. They need to be boosted slightly or altered to be on par with most of the other races.

I'm having some trouble with Iconian economy too, although I suspect part of it may be just unfamiliarity with the best order to build their upgrades. It took me a while to even realize what their "economy" buildings were in the tech tree. One of the fun-but-frustrating things about TA is I can't just apply a standard template to building up colonies, like I used to do with DA. Every race is going to have its own different optimization rules, and I haven't come close to figuring it all out yet.

Also I'm having terrible bad luck in my current Iconian TA game with finding cash anomalies, which didn't help with the colonizing economy crash. I think I got just one lousy 250bc anomaly and EVERY other one my flagship found was a non-cash bonus. A little good or bad luck with anomalies can change the economic picture during that phase.

Yea, I've managed to put a couple more games in and I feel more strongly than ever that the Iconians need a bit of help. Their super ability is subpar, they lack customization points, and the +50 espionage just doesn't make any kind of sense at all. They definitely need a little bit of help in the economy department.

I can easily trounce the AI with any race, especially the Korath on Painful, except the Iconians. With them I feel like I have to rely on a good starting setup and a lot of 1000bc anomalies early on to keep up. I mean its doable, and I like the idea behind the Iconian's a lot, they have a cool backstory and concept. Unfortunately, the lack of economy until the midgame where they get the +50% economy building is really crippling, and they have perhaps the weakest startup of all the races.

Even with the 50% economy building, I still have a very hard time keeping the Iconians out of the red. My complaint with them is similar to what a lot of people have stated. I'm not sure who they're supposed to be. In DA, they struck me as slightly evil super-scientists. Now their backstory seems to suggest that they would struggle with science. I agree that espionage has nothing to do with this race. We already have a spying race. Their super ability is pretty weak. If you are unlucky with planet placement, their super ability is completely useless.

In keeping with their backstory, why not give them some sort of Precursor related super ability? For instance, they could have a chance to discover tile bonuses when they terraform. Guaranteed at least one tile per planet? Or perhaps an increased chance of Precursor ships? Or pretty much anything besides what they have now. If we are going to give them the ability to colonize extreme environments, aquatic should be removed and given to the Torians. Korath already have toxic, so let's give them radioactive. You could say that it's due to their constant use of Precursor machines, which are lethally radioactive to most other races.

Maybe they don't struggle with science, exactly. Maybe it's more of a predilection to be somewhat lazy about it, since they have Precursor tech to fall back on. They're used to having their tech handed to them on a platter, as it were, and it's not that easy for them to make a leap to developing their own inventions. Actually, I see a lot of their Precursor-related tech tree as being sort of an archaeological project... with Iconians out somewhere digging up Precursor artifacts instead of working hard in a lab, each time they "research" a new tech in the tree.



Yep, tell me about it... my current Iconian game had not a single aquatic or toxic world I could take advantage of, in the initial colony rush phase. It's sometimes useful later in the game, but I think it's the only Super Ability that depends on a dice roll to be useful or not. Super Adapter also isn't the best match to a race with a weak economy even when you do get lucky, since having access to a lot of planets in the early turns just deepens the eventual economic crash. An experienced player can avoid that by holding off on the aquatic and toxic worlds until you think the other races have tech'd up to grab them, but it can bite a new player pretty hard.



That would help, although I'd like to see some kind of direct cash infusion that would happen earlier in the game. Maybe an increased chance to find cash-producing anomalies, or a chance to find Precursor artifacts that could be sold, every time you colonize a planet. Or a slight boost to tourism, based on the idea that Precursor artifacts would be a strong tourist draw?



I like the idea of swapping aquatic for radioactive with the Iconians, for the reasons mentioned, but I don't think the Torians should get aquatic colonization as a starting ability. It does make sense, considering their background and tech tree, but Super Breeder is already a strong bonus. I'm not sure they need even more planets in the colony rush to breed on. Torians usually do pretty well in my games.

I'd like to see some kind of super-ability relating to their mastery of robotics and automation. I mean, they did design the Yor (even if not to their sentient state), so I think it might be realistic to give them a +10% social/military cost-free production bonus or something to simulate the efficiency of their robotics technology as a super ability.

And as far as the Espionage bonus I mean, cmon..... I'd even take Influence, as an economic advantage might be too powerful in offsetting their powerful early game buildings.

That's exactly how I imagined it. The planets are probably liberally sprinkled with precursor sites/artifacts, and the Iconians would know how to dig one up, dust it off and get it running. I like all the other super ability ideas better than what they have now.

Re: Torians, they really ought to have aquatic worlds according to the story. How about lowering their maximum population on all other world types. They'd still grow quickly, but they'd stop at 4 instead of 6. Maybe they could do away with that late in the game with some research, allowing them to increase surface water.

I always imagine it as them translating the texts contained within their Precursor Archives/Libraries. Who needs research when you have all the knowledge of the universe at your fingertips? You just have to learn how to read it.

Of course, much of the Knowledge contained within those Archives was lost, but the point remains.

Aye, I took it that the tech they start off with they were shown how to make. However they are incapable of making something better without tons of research that they lack since they were given everything for thousands of years.

I always assumed that although they could replicate Precursor technology, because the Precursors had lived amongst them so long. However the Precursors themselves had evolved much further than the current state of the Iconians, into some sort of quasi-energy state or involving telekinesis or something fancy like that, the Iconians themselves couldn't get anywhere near the efficiency of what the Precursors got out of those buildings... sort of like trying to run the Starship Enterprise with only one man. While theoretically possible, you couldn't attain anything even remotely approaching the efficiency of how it's meant to be run with a full crew. Their may be entire functions of the Precursor buildings that the Iconians are unable to make use of due to lack of telekinesis or telepathy or whatever niftytastic powers the Precursors had evolved/genetically engineered themselves into.

I played another two games this week with the Iconians and Torians (still trying to behave like unofficial beta tester). In both games (on large map with 5 AI on painful) the Krynn and Terrans just pulled away from everybody else. I won all the battles and won the games, but it was far more difficult with the Iconians.

A few things that I am noticing.

1. Economic development is weak in comparison to other races because the Iconian settlement pattern is so dispersed. When every single world has two to four unique buildings, there isn't alot of room for economic focused worlds. As a result, you have to race up the tech tree to the one per planet 50% econ boost tech while working the trade aspects as hard as possible.

2. Even with a fully optimized economic build, maintenance costs for ships and expensive Iconian structures keep your econ from developing any sort of surplus to fund heavy espionage work making the racial bonus difficult to utilize fully.

3. In combat the Iconian fleets are great, but their early advantage isn't enough to simply roll over a couple of neighbors for a huge early advantage in real estate. Taking alot of worlds via conquest or the early access to environment techs places you deeper in the red as the Iconians (even with xeno ethics and the good discount for five planets).

These things taken together create some limitations. First off, your initial game settings have to be stacked to offset the economic problems. When you must max out econ and go federalist, you miss out on alot of the flexibility that other races enjoy and you risk falling behind technologically (especially with the Iconian's unique approach to research). Even with the funds and techs garnered through the trading of your early colonization techs it is still very easy to fall behind financially and technologically.

I think that Stardock's designers should look for ways to make the Iconian special abilities stronger in the passive sense. Being able to grab certain environment planets early is great, but they have to be able to afford them with something short of an all economic fast xeno ethics for the good discount approach. Perhaps a slight economic boost would help matters and make it slightly easier to afford to use their early advantages more fully. As for the espionage aspect, perhaps you should try to find a way to make that racial advantage work with less investment or via a counter espionage bonus (early access to counter espionage).

Regardless, the Iconians play very differently now and that makes them interesting and challenging to play.

As for the Torians, they are so much better than they were in DA. I am completely floored by the fact that you can get to Disruptors in the beam weapon line of techs without having to power through 7 levels of Phasors.

The answer is simple. Take out the espionage bonuses and pu in something worthwhile... maybe social/mil producion bonus, or miniturization bonus.

Yea, I couldn't have put it better myself. Unless you focus very early on towards getting that +50% econ building, you are totally shafted. Even then, the insane maintenence on all your colonies is gonna leave you with very few choices. While the Iconians are really different and cool, playing as them is basically like playing hard-mode. Considering this is a single player only game, I suppose that might be the intent, but it seems a bit out of whack at the moment