Need a technology overview for between races

from GalCiv2 Forums
I am finding the new technology trees a tad too complex. They are simply overwhelming me. For example, until I read the post by Draginol, I didn't realize the Arcean's didn't have a warp drive (they also don't have starbase mobilization technologies either). I have two suggestions that are simple enough to perhaps be included in TA:

1) include a more comprehensive description of the races in the Race selection screen. I'm thinking of something like one would read in a RPG style game that kind of boils down the basic characteristics of the race. So for Arcean's it could read something like, 'Arcean's quickly gained control of their local environment, using their unique weather stations to improve planet quality. However, the local pilot's guide squashed all local research into new space drives, saying that whatever a machine can do a pilot can do better. etc, etc'

2) when exploring deep into the technology tree, clicking a technology should highlight the pathway through the tree to the target technology.

Overall I'm enjoying the new technologies tremendously, they are making each race truly unique and enjoyable to play. I do worry a little bit about a new player and how overwhelmed they may feel. Perhaps a good tutorial or campaign style tutorial might work.


7,408 views 15 replies
Reply #1 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
An overview on the race description would be helpful, but my main personal beef is with the entire UI for the tech tree. I've never understood why it's divided into two separate screens like that. The default view doesn't show enough of the tree in that small window at the bottom, and when you go to the full view, you can't get the info you get on the default view. It's crazy. Why can't we get all the info we need for the tech tree in one window?

I know we're not likely to get a redesign until GalCiv3, I just wanted to mention how frustrating this current design is. At minimum, can we please get some mouseover info on those new TA mini icons?
Reply #2 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Did you know that you can zoom the bottom part in and out to see more or less as you need?

Bakka
Offworld Trading Company
Reply #3 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Yes, I know about the zoom for the bottom window in the default view. On a high-res monitor, the text disappears quickly when you zoom out. And I don't play the game THAT much that I can memorize the tree.

The default view has useful info on what each tech does. The alternative view shows the full tree with very little info (and inscrutable icons in TA beta). I just don't understand, from a user interface design standpoint, why this can't be combined in one screen with mouseover or popup windows for expanded info as you browse the tech tree.

It feels like a relic of a previous, limited design... like the developer started with the default view, then realized people wanted to see more of the tree in fullscreen, and tacked that on as an afterthought, without going all the way to integrating the two views into something more useful. It's not a big deal, just annoying.

I'll bet this is one of those flaws that the devs don't even notice, because they play the game so much, or they're so immersed in the design, that they don't realize that non-hardcore players haven't memorized what the tech tree does... throughout all the revisions and expansions.
Reply #4 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Yeah, I was a bit over-whelmed at first as well. When I started to play the Arceans I was losing money really fast, I couldn't find the tech that gave me Marketplaces. I thought to myself, maybe Arceans don't get Marketplaces and I have to adapt my strategy. Of course as I played I eventually figured it out.

I agree that either a racial description highlighting some of the differences in play style you can expect, or maybe just a big printable tech tree for each race that we print out and look at while we play.
Reply #5 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I agree with the OP, it is all rather overwhelming. As things stand, I'm having a difficult time providing any useful feedback, other than bug reports, which aren't really the same thing.

I wonder if Frogboy might consider providing us with some additional information for the next beta updates. His intentions as far as how each race should ultimately play might be useful, for example.
Reply #6 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
... my main personal beef is with the entire UI for the tech tree. I've never understood why it's divided into two separate screens like that. The default view doesn't show enough of the tree in that small window at the bottom, and when you go to the full view, you can't get the info you get on the default view. It's crazy. Why can't we get all the info we need for the tech tree in one window?
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In the maximized view of the tech tree screen, you can right-click individual techs to get all of the data that you would normally see in the smaller view.  This has been in the game since at least Dreadlords, though it isn't the most publicized of features.

Hope that helps!

~C
Reply #7 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
In the maximized view of the tech tree screen, you can right-click individual techs to get all of the data that you would normally see in the smaller view.  This has been in the game since at least Dreadlords, though it isn't the most publicized of features.
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Um... actually, no. You don't get all the data with a right-click on the full tree.

In my current DA game, I'm at the point of researching Planetary Invasion. The two views aren't synchronized. The full-screen tree view shows the available ship upgrades, plus Future Techs -- Planetary Bombardment, and Planetary Defense. The default screen shows an additional New Invasion Tactic - Gas Warfare. That's just one example. And why should I have to scroll through a mini-window to see the full text on the fullscreen view that I can see in the default view info window? That's annoying.

Also, the default view lists critical info that's missing from the full tree view -- build time. I see it for the individual tech, and I can sort the list on the left for build time, or other factors like cost. Why should I have to go back to this screen to get that info? Why can't this all be in just one screen?

And while I'm in gripe mode -- -- Why should I have to use a mouse click that unselects and resets my current research choice, just to get information on a tech? Every time I want to find out what a tech does, I have to remember what it was I meant to be researching in the current turn. Isn't it a fairly basic UI convention that a selection click should be diffrent than the way a user gets info on something? Or have I missed a key command or something that does this, without resetting my current research choice?
Reply #8 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
The two views aren't synchronized.
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They ARE synchronized in our current build of Twilight, (and most likely in Beta1, though I'm not sure) .  I guess that's another thing for you to look forward to in the new game.

By the way, your example of a specific tech (Planetary Invasion) was helpful so that I could run the game and quickly verify what is happening.  Examples like that give us the info we need to reproduce what you are seeing and then investigate why so we can fix them.

Kudos to you for having the sense to give us developers something specific to go check out.

Thanks,

~C
Reply #9 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

If you guys would like to post what your ideal technology screen would look like, I'll work to see if we can make your concept a reality.

 

Reply #10 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
In the maximized view of the tech tree screen, you can right-click individual techs to get all of the data that you would normally see in the smaller view.  This has been in the game since at least Dreadlords, though it isn't the most publicized of features.


Um... actually, no. You don't get all the data with a right-click on the full tree.

In my current DA game, I'm at the point of researching Planetary Invasion. The two views aren't synchronized. The full-screen tree view shows the available ship upgrades, plus Future Techs -- Planetary Bombardment, and Planetary Defense. The default screen shows an additional New Invasion Tactic - Gas Warfare. That's just one example. And why should I have to scroll through a mini-window to see the full text on the fullscreen view that I can see in the default view info window? That's annoying.

Also, the default view lists critical info that's missing from the full tree view -- build time. I see it for the individual tech, and I can sort the list on the left for build time, or other factors like cost. Why should I have to go back to this screen to get that info? Why can't this all be in just one screen?

And while I'm in gripe mode -- -- Why should I have to use a mouse click that unselects and resets my current research choice, just to get information on a tech? Every time I want to find out what a tech does, I have to remember what it was I meant to be researching in the current turn. Isn't it a fairly basic UI convention that a selection click should be diffrent than the way a user gets info on something? Or have I missed a key command or something that does this, without resetting my current research choice?
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Agree with this. A simple one window tech view could be made that showed all the information you needed.
Reply #11 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I also agree a overview of the different races techs would be nice. There is too much hidden information in this game on such a high level that it should have been shown. (With that i mean you dont have to give off every hidden game mechanism but stuff that should obviously not be hidden information.)
For example I totaly HATE the fact that its not shown exactly how manny production it costs for each building, and that it doesnt show you how much you have allready produced for each planet. Therefore you are having to tweak in the blind on the last turn before an improvement finishes or you risk loosking a lot of production on building more than you needed that round. Same goes with science points.
Reply #12 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

If you guys would like to post what your ideal technology screen would look like, I'll work to see if we can make your concept a reality.


 


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I think Civ 4 has about the best tech tree interface I've seen. When you click a technology it automatically highlights all techs needed to get there and queues those up to be researched.
If you hover over the tech it gives you all the details (description, benefits, buildings, units). There are little icons for units available and buildings and hovering over any of those gives you details on each of those.

I honestly have never liked the two window view of the GalCiv tech tree. I'd go for one big window. Either hover or with a right click it will popup a window with all the details on the tech (as you find today in the upper screen). It would also be nice to have things like ships or buildings be hyperlinks and when clicked on would bring up details about them (not sure if it's possible) and when cleared gets you back to the research screen.

I'd also have various button along the top to sort or highlight the tech tree in various ways (like you have now on various screens like the colony/ship screen).
Things like "racial techs" which would highlight all the racial specific techs for you and the ones you've acquired in trades from other races. This might help the above request to get an overview of the new techs.

One thing I always find confusing is actually finding a tech needed to do a certain thing like get a starbase or mining module upgrade. So maybe a button for "starbase/mining upgrades" which would then highlight any tech that grants a new starbase module. A "ships" button which would highlight any tech that allowed a new ship to be built.

And allow multiple techs to be queued up. Maybe a "research governor" is needed where you can queue up techs. This would then allow for something like this for example: I want to build a certain starbase module. I found the tech that grants that module. I can then click on that tech and choose to queue up all the techs needed for it in the governor.

An extension of the "ships" button might be to search (or have a list) for a ship model by name. Say a "Scout" or "Battleship Mk 2-2". It would then highlight every tech needed to enable the building of that ship. I could then queue up all those techs in the research governor queue. Right now when I figure out I really need a certain ship type to counter the AI I have to hunt and peck the tech tree to figure out what I need to research so I can build that counter.

How's that for a start?
Reply #13 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
One that would be nice and reduce confusion is a bit of information about what any new improvements/modules/whatever that the techs unlock do, so that you can find that out without having to research the tech.

Also, on a related note, it would be REALLY helpful to have more detailed info about techs in the trade screen (Can you research it? How much does it cost? Even just adding the little short description you get in the tech screen would be nice).

I like the icons that the techs have now, but they should really provide pop-up info on mouseover. I think I agree with Bonscott about most of his suggestions; it would be nice if in the full view, techs had their cost noted (if possible, future techs should note how long it would take to research that tech and all other techs leading up to it combined), as well as providing full details on mouse-over.

Also, I notice that the tech tree could be made a bit more compact (and therefore more readable all at once) in the following way:

Currently, if you have a string of techs and you have A leading to B and C, B leading to D, D leading to E, and E leading to F, G, and H, the tech tree will display like this:

A -> B -> D -> E -> F
|........................\-> G
|..........................\-> H
\->C

It would be much more compact and readable if it instead displayed like this:

A -> B -> D -> E -> F
\-> C................\-> G
.........................\-> H

The spacing is probably going to make that look wrong when I post it, but hopefully you get my point; the tree should check to see if it can "fit" earlier techs behind later ones instead of bumping them down to a line below all the later techs.

EDIT: Yeah, the spacing is all wrong; pretend the periods are blank space.
Reply #14 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Just wanted to bump this, since I finally sorted out my thoughts about possible improvements.

First, we really need the right mouse click to NOT SELECT a tech for current research. That's what the left button is for. Too many times, I've been in either of the two screens and right-clicked on something for more info, only to have it select that research. And now I have to remember what it was I was trying to research currently. You can get info on a future tech by right clicking if it's far enough down the tree, but it will select AS WELL as giving you the info, if it's currently available.

For consistency, it should work like the techs available for trade from another race in the diplomatic contact/trade screen: right click for more info, left click to select. This should be very simple to change.

If I were able to wave a magic wand and just redesign the tree interface... the first goal would be to get rid of the two separate views. That makes no sense to me. The three important things to see are 1) the overall tree, zoomable and pan-able (which the alternate view does), and 2) more detailed info on each tech with a right click, and 3) a list sorted by time, cost, etc.

Put that all on just one screen. Make the text for the sorted list a little smaller and run that as a column down the left side of the screen. We'd lose a little horizontal space on the tree view, but the full tree (in TA anyway) is more vertical than horizontal, if you ignore the extreme end of the tech victory path. That's why the mini-view of the tree in the default view is so annoying... you need to go vertical more than horizontal most times, and it's just too vertically cramped. But if you go to the full tree view, you lose the sorted list for remaining time, etc.

After putting the sorted list on the left, give us an info panel that pops up when we right-click on a tech. We have that now (not perfectly synchronized, as per above post), but please make it larger. The popup is too small... we shouldn't have to scroll within the window to see the info. Also, as a minor point, on the text detail panel I'd like to see the main bonuses and future tech listed first, with any new ships it makes available sorted down at the bottom instead of the top (like the way the current small popup panel works).

If that's too ambitious, I'd settle for being able to grab the horizontal divider line in the default view between the bottom tree and the top detai window/sorted list, and just drag that up to get a larger tree view. There's a ton of wasted space in that upper right detail panel, in the default view.

For the TA expansion -- the icons at the bottom and popup window is a good start, but there is still a bunch of missing info (I assume this is work in progress). I click on lots of little building icon improvements where I have no idea what benefit I'm going to get from it. I'll eventually learn that from playing the game long enough, but it's the kind of info a newbie can really use.


Reply #15 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

First, we really need the right mouse click to NOT SELECT a tech for current research. That's what the left button is for. Too many times, I've been in either of the two screens and right-clicked on something for more info, only to have it select that research.
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Couldn't agree more. Most of those times, I only noticed the changed research a few turns later...