Diplomacy Questions

Not sure about how the various gifts effect the AIs relations towards you, but in order to form an alliance you must get relations to "close" which can be quite difficult at times. Being the same alignment is a good start though .

As DA mentioned an Alliance isn't an option unless you're relationship is "close". Also AFAIK you need to have the Alliances tech but the AI that you wish to form an alliance with doesn't.

The best way to get people to like you is to have the best military rating. If you're top dog all you have to do is trade a few techs or gift them a couple of hundred bc and they'll be "close" without much other prompting.

If you're not so strong then it's much more difficult. The Spin Control Center is a big help in getting the military rating that will make the AI take you seriously.

Play at lower difficulties!  

In some of my easier games I have had trouble getting the opponents to dislike me.

Military rating, diplomacy ability, trade routes, and same alignment seem to be important for getting to "close" relations.

Yeah, A strong military will give the AI a reason to have better relations with you, because they don't want to have a war against someone who's stronger than them. The diplomacy ability helps too, but trade routes are the big one in improving relations, if the AI's income is a good 25% from you, they don't want to lose it.

I found that especially trading is effective when preparing a race for an alliance offer. Usually if I really want an alliance I use all my trade routes exclusively for that race. It takes only a few turns until they agree to an alliance.

I wasnt aware that multiple trade routes with one civ had more of an effect than just one trade route. I thought it was just a "yes or no" sort of effect. Can anybody confirm how it works?

Sentient species taste better...

Hi!

It seems to be a "true/false" switch, but with three states: "no trade" (no + in relations), "trade" (one + in relation), "big trade" (two ++). However the other side has one such a switch also on their side. Maybe that makes the second plus.   


1) Alliance tech on both sides.
2) Relations with that race: the more pluses you have and the less minuses, the faster you'll get to "close", when you can form alliance.
3) Other's side "mood". Some races will never get "close". Might be an effect of game difficulty level. In that case just exterminate them.

BR, Iztok

Thanks Itzok!

Sentient species taste better...

Not sure I totally buy this. I'm not saying that this isn't true but there are ways around this that don't really require you to get a sum of all Relation Factors of seven (as mentioned in the Wiki article) to get to close.

When I mentioned a stronger military rating perhaps I didn't emphasize it sufficiently. I'm talking about a 10 to 1 ratio of your military ranking to theirs. In such a case the plusses and minuses really hardly matter at all.

I've had a 10 to 1 military ratio and a relationship of wary with a particular AI. By gifting a single tech I was able to go from wary to neutral and then within the same turn go from neutral to friendly by gifting another tech. In each case I received no additional plus relationship factors although I did get a response something like "Boy you sure know how to butter up a guy, although I can't say the gift will go unnoticed". This was followed by an immediate shift in the relationship slider shown in the foreign relations summary screen.

As I said initially with a strong enough military it's very easy to get anyone to love you. It's just a matter of knowing how strong is strong enough. From experience that 10 to 1 threshold is very powerful.

I'm playing a league game where I got into a situation where I was the only evil civ left. I thought I might not be able to get an alliance since all that was left was two good civs and a neutral. As Mumble said though, military rating can trump all, I built my rating to about 5 times the nearest civ(which was about ten times the third place civ) and was able to get all three to "close".

Hi!

I'm nitpicking now, but please note I didn't wrote you need 7 pluses and you'll have an alliance. From my experience the "7 plused for aliance" is not correct, as I'd say I quite often had more, and no minuses, but was only at friendy. Might be the reason is my military: I rarely build significantly more ships that it is needed. So I very likely never had a 10-to-1 military ratio, at least with civs that mattered in a game.

But from your experience the two pluses from mil ratio could be just a display limitation. It is entirely possible the game actually uses more than two in calculation of relations, so in your case you could have there like five.    IMO only devs can confirm that. Anyway, the next time I'll want some AI as an ally, I'll buid military. Lots of. Can't hurt, could help.

BR, Iztok

There's a good discussion on the Wiki. In the Alliance article it mentions you need the sum of seven or more Relation Factors to get to close, however it also mentions that aiding a civilization can bring relations closer.

In the Relation Factors article it lists only nine possible Positive Factors (counting ++ as two) and 10 possible Negative Factors. Assuming an ethical difference with one or another AI is gauranteed, that leaves only 8 possible positive factors still with 10 possible negative factors. Without the military might advantage it's virtually impossible to achieve a sum of seven with someone of a different alignment than you.

However, although I've easily moved some seriously abused AI's from wary to friendly I have yet to go all the way to alliance. I'm about to find out in my latest MV League game that requires an alliance victory. My tendency is to abuse AI's by exiling them to a single PQ3 with the Re-Education Center and a Secret Police Center to keep them from flipping or building any ships, then killing all their ships. If I can still force an alliance with such an AI then that will certainly be sufficient proof of my assertion. I'll let you know how it turns out.

Hi!

Humm, I miss the "They don't trust us". Will correct the wiki.

I also remeber seeing a + for recent help or gift or something similar. I can't check currently.

BR, Iztok

The positive factors are:

Our Military Strength(+/++)
Our Diplomacy Skill(+/++)
Trading(+/++)
Our Historic Friendship(+/++)
Our Ethical Alignment(+)
Too busy to risk war with us(+)
They appreciate our past help(+)

The negative factors are:

Our Military Strength(-/--)
Our Diplomacy Skill(-/--)
Our Historic Animosity(-/--)
Militaristic(-)
Our Tendency To Conquer Others(-/--)
Our Ethical Alignment(-)
Lingering Racial Grudge(-)
'We know what you're doing...'(-)
They Don't Trust Us(-/--)
Our Close Borders(-)
Our Alarming Influence(-/--)

That's 11 positives to 17 negatives.

'They appreciate our past help' is when they pop up saying that so-and-so war is wearing them down, and ask for help. If you give them something valuable enough, they'll respond with a message like "We shall sing songs in your name." or "I promise to send you that Kalzanian lizard eye for your birthday.", and then give you that + in relations. I've seen this happen twice naturally now(I'll screenshot it next time an AI comes asking for help). This seems to be occur often when Surrenders are turned off - otherwise they'll just surrender to somebody or keep fighting for a while longer.

The 'Our Tendency To Conquer others' seems to have been missed out on the wiki.

I think there are some +'s for treaties (economic and research) as well...?

>>I'm talking about a 10 to 1 ratio of your military ranking to theirs. <<

If you are so far ahead in miltary, why would you bother with an alliance?

Yes, yes.

Our Treaties Together(+/++)

That makes it 13 positives to 17 negatives.



An ally:

1. Will not get angry if you station your military in their star systems.

2. Will not get angry if you are destroying their empire through cultural conquest.

3. Can be spoken to any time(no 'too busy - try back later' messages).

4. Will provide a decoy target if some more powerful civ attacks you.

5. Will not charge as much for techs, ships, goods, or services that you buy from them.*

6. Will give you small gifts from time to time.

*I'm not too sure about the 5th point, however.

Hi!

For me the biggest bonus is I don't need to eliminate him to finish the game.

BR, Iztok

I'm almost certain Iztok is onto a key point when he mentions a possible "display limitation" on the Reports tab of the Diplomacy window. I suspect that the scale the game uses for each factor could be much larger for both positives and negatives, particularly the more mysterious ones such as "We know what you're doing" or "Militaristic." (What is the difference between the minus for "Militaristic" and "Our military strength" anyway?)

Re the effects of trade, I don't think the underlying math is simple. I've had the Drengin dump a goodly income stream to attack me (as Thalans) just because I was the only player down at their level of military buildup. Again, the display could be much more informative.

My impression of the difference between a Trade + and ++ has been that the second + comes when both of us establish a route to the other; but I rarely have multiple routes to another empire b/c I play gigantic maps, so that could be a mistaken impression.

never mind... it was already said.

I more than often am the weaker (military) partner in an alliance, military might is no necessity. Let alone a 10-1 rating. If you really want an ally, pay him to attack someone, then declare war on that same race yourself. Nothing like common enemies to help unite! (Not required either, but I find that it helps much more than pure military intimidating force...)

Cap'n, please give let us know which "it" you mean.

How did you do this? Whenever I try to contact the same civ twice a turn they always refuse to see me, even if I have the Super Diplomat ability.