You guys are teaching me things about the Espionage aspect that I did not know.... the ONLY time I've made spies was to 'counter' existing enemy spies... I am DEFINITELY going to think about using them in a malicious manner  

thks for the ideas

THKS to everyone who's contributed and helped me with my questions thus far, you guys are why I'm here (not just the game).  


Chr*s

Well, have you looked in the various forein report report windows? especially the one displaying all the treaties among major races? There are some nice informations on the right pane

In order to prevent the whole galaxy going into neverending chaos, the alliance system has been tweaked  (don't remember since which version) to mean a DEFENSIVE alliance: if a player is attacked, his allies must declare war onto the attacker (or break the alliance) unless they are also allied with the attacker.

BTW, are you sure that you have the demand when the player's AI ally attacks and not when the player's AI ally is attacked ? 

I've seen what you're talking about I think... but maybe I missed something...  


  I'll look at that tonight in depth.

thks

All right, you got me started. And I meant abortion because that's what it is. The problem is that the espionage system just becomes an expensive pointless contest of who can spend the most on spys in a an economy that has already been squeezed to the limit. It's not fun and is really just an irritant. The actual damage you can do to another race is negligable when playing with a lot of habitable planets. Disabling a handful of AI buildings for a turn or two when they have lots of other buildings on lots of other planets is a pointless drain on your economy. Even when you do manage the near impossible task of getting spies to survive for any length of time, you barely get any espionage out of it. The whole thing is lame and half-baked. There, I wasn't going to complain any more about it, but you made me do it


Not surprising since they're really not much help when it comes to fighting. However, there are some other advantages to having allies. For one, you can use their space as a staging area to fight other races without them getting hostile. Also, you can execute an influence war on an ally without them getting hostile.


Not really and it was version 1.4. The claim was that alliances were broken until then. You could form alliances with "friendly" relations. As of the change, "close" relations are required which seem almost a random occurance. You can't obtain close relations through bribery or other means. You can only obtain friendly relations and keep checking to see if they roll close.

So many things have changed under the guise they were never supposed to be that way. A few were obvious errors, but some have had a negative impact (i.e. stock markets). My question is, if it wasn't supposed to be that way, why was the game released that way. Is someone asleep at the helm?

In response to what you've said about the Espionage aspect of the game, the only 'good' thing I can think of at this point is maYbe for small maps???

I can see how in a game when there are WAY less planets involved that sabotaging a few might have a bigger impact than it would on a Large map with lots and lots of planets.

I really appreciate you spilling your personal thoughts though, it's enlightening to a noob like me.


I'm glad you mentioned the Stock Markets - I was PISSED the other night when I was getting close to finishing my game, and I researched the S.M.s up from the Bank only to find out that they only went up a MERE 5% and ended up giving me influence @ 5% and with a cost of 1 BC/turn. WHY would anYone need influence bonuses at that late a stage in the game?

I wish I knew how to STOP buildings from upgrading - prolly some simply button I'm missing on the planet panel page thingy.

Correction, version 1.3. And BTW, the change to alliances did not impact the AI's ability to form alliances.

I'm not unsympathetic to your point of view. This can become quite irritating, if you let it. The trick is, not to let yourself get sucked into that endless loop of spy vs. spy. Play smarter. It's ironic that this topic is here now, because I am experiencing this very thing in my current game. Here is the situation, and what I am going to do about it.

After a few of those huge 'space opera' type games, I needed a break, and decided to start one of those simple games where I could just go and kick the crap out of something. I started a tiny/rare, one opponent game. Me, the Drengin vs. the Torians, with a few minors for flavor. The game was chugging along, as it does, when the Torians got cocky and declared war. I ramped up my tech output to sprint through those last two or three steps to the psionic beam, and a turn or two after I reached this, they dropped their first spy on my tech capital. I maxed out my espionage spending, and neutralized it. Another dropped. Got that one. Then another, then two more, on my labs. More often than not, the AI will give up, or lose interest, or whatever it does, fairly quickly. Not these guys. They are committed. But I am not going to get sucked in.

I am going to leave my espionage spending maxed out; but instead of going after their spies, I am going to stockpile mine. This game isn't going to last long enough for further research to be a factor. I shouldn't need too many agents, three or four should be more than plenty in this galaxy. I am going to target their economy- economic capital, stock markets, and any farming tiles. If you flood them with agents, they won't have time to respond before they are bankrupt, and everything in their world grinds to a halt. At this point, for all intents and purposes, the game is won. All that is left is to mop them up. And mop I will, for after all, I did start this game to kick the crap out of something.



This strat works for larger maps also; but of course you need more agents, and must pick your targets, as well as the time to strike wisely. Here is a link to a reply that I made to a post some time ago that illustrates this point. Reply #4 is the one that I am referring to, but the whole thread is pretty informative as to the nature and power of spies.











WWW Link

The problem with spies is that they often bog down my game.

If I can afford to spyspam someone, I'm already winning - in a game where spies are costing me 2000bc or MORE a pop, how much more damage can I do in equivalently ships and transports? A whole lot more.

The only reason I ever build spies is because the AIs are all spyspamming me for being at the top - in a recent game, I recieved eight spies in one turn.

No, not a mega event. Eight regular spies from the AIs in a single turn - and nobody was at war with me. Guess how much BC that cost to remove, a whole lot is what.

Although the EVERYONE GETS SPYSPAM mega event can go to hell too - it's why I turned them off.

Doesn't DA has a research and a building that will remove and stop any spy attacks on the planet that build it? I think it may be right after the Trade tech?

Yes. I believe it's called the 'Counter-Espionage Center'. Unfortunately, you can only build one of these, and it only effects the planet that it is built on.

You can build one per planet, but they do take up valuable real estate. I never really have spyspam problems, mainly because I rarely have the strongest military. Until, that is, someone declares war on me, and I pull an impressive fleet out of my rear....   

I agree that the spy system strains an already strained economy and this becomes a major pain, as others have said.

Also, why does each spy cost more than the last? And why does your spy die when he neutralizes, does the enemy spy explode? Get real, your spy shouldn't die every time he attacks an enemy spy. Couldn't your attack fail and the enemy spy remain on the planet? It just feels like kamikaze wars with spies right now.

Finally, could there be a espionage treaty with allies? It would work the same ways as research treaties: You're ally(or you) gets a money bonus on how much the ally is spending on research. Now if you could have it where you get a percentage of how much the ally is spending on espionage, that would be great. It would definately help with tying this thread with allies and espionage.

PS: Could there be a bonus for super-spy races to have an improvement to get revenue from other races espionage spending? Like the neutral/evil building that gahters excess trade income and the good building that gathers other godd race's infulence income.

Well, one way to think of this (i.e. rationalize the game design) is that it's not really a single spy, but a network of spies, contacts, and snitches. Neutralizing an enemy spy would expose the network. The enemy would know their own spy network was gone, and take precautions next time, to avoid hanging out with the same contacts. Rebuilding an effective network after exposure might require more money.

That said, I don't love the current spy system. At the risk of angering the devs by complaining about a new feature... it feels tacked-on, not that well integrated into the game. I hope this can be improved without increasing the micro-management burden too much. Spies are more integrated into the game mechanic in the Medieval II Total War game, but it's also another layer of micro. It can get annoying once your empire is large enough, or if you're dealing with a faction that's spamming spies.

In that respect, I think I prefer the earlier system where spying take place on a more abstract, galaxy-wide level, where you just get more info if you pour more money into the resource.

Ah, but the ggame doesn't tell you who is spying on your planets. (A stupid thing, but that's how it is)

But the game always tells you that you're being 'spied' upon. Just it doesn't tell you who is spying on you.

That's one of the things I like about the espionage system in DA - I know when someone is spying on me, and I can do something about it. Yes, I'm one of the minority that likes the new system more than the old.