Defensive Ship Design

How do you make it practical?

from GalCiv2 Forums
Iztok's Ship Design Strategies article on the Wiki says this:

There are actually only two feasible ways to build ships in DA: all-attack one and most-defenses one.

All-attack means only best weapons and engines (0-2) in biggest hull available. You'll be losing some of those ships, but by "in case of mutual destruction the strongest ships survives" rule (and this design will probably be the strongest), not so many you'd expect.

Most-defense means your single ship has to have at least 75% of defenses as your opponent's fleet has attack (ofc. higher is better, and defenses have to match his weapons' type). If you can match that, your ships will take in combat only little damage, but will destroy lots of opponent's fleets. However timeframe of usefullnes for this design type is limited to early and mid game. With opponent's very high weapons and logistic tech your main fighter should be all-weapons design.


How effective is the Most Defense strategy? In DA, defenses have gotten a big boost in usefulness, but according to this, you must have the same type defense and this design strategy is only useful in the early-to-midgame timeframe. But how come this isn't effective later on, and to what level of tech is it effective? This also means that you must have at least 2 kinds of defenses to match 2 kinds of weapons(probably missiles and beams). However:

-Each branch of defense costs about 15000 RP.

-You must have a weapon branch, which costs between 50000-75000 RP.

-Propulsion tech altogether costs just over 15000 RP.

For All Attack, you only have to research up a weaponry branch and propulsion tech, while in Most Defense, you at least have to research up a weaponry branch and 2 defense branches.

So for Most Defenses, do you have to simply research more, or do you have to let off some of your weapon or propulsion research to keep the research going for 2 lines of defense? I've been trying to design some defensive ships with missiles, point defense, and shields, and it's kind of hard when compared to designing simpler pure attack ships. Do you use both defenses at once or make 2 separate designs using different defense tech? Do you lay off on propulsion, cut back on weaponry, or just research more for larger hulls and smaller parts?
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Also, what if you're Good Alignment, that too with Universalist Party and a Luck bonus? Then you get superior defense techs which also grant you 5% defense bonuses each(or a 5% HP bonus for Arnorian Battle Armor), and you can build the Empathic Tactical Center which boosts all defenses by 20%. With 50% to 80%(in case of Altarians) Luck, the rolls ought to be high which means several enemy shots will be totally rebounded, but what about offense? Do you need more attack to survive the battle turn limit, or would attaching just a few weapons or weak-but-compact weapons be enough to destroy a lightly/moderately defended opponent fleet within the time limit? Or is it HP that determines who survives the turn limit, in which case handling it would be much easier?
strategies
11,691 views 13 replies
Reply #1 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
"But how come this isn't effective later on, and to what level of tech is it effective?"

Like you say, later on in the game the AI will usually combine 2 weapon types in their design, meaning you need to combine 2 kinds of defenses which leaves preciously little space for any offensive capabilities. And on top of that the AI will often have some defenses as well, so you risk having an armored/shielded/... sitting duck that is incapable of dishing out any damage.

Iztok mentions that "With opponent's very high weapons and logistic tech your main fighter should be all-weapons design". Indeed the increased logistic tech from the AI will lead to several sizeable craft in a single fleet, so even if your defensive design would survive a one-on-one, it can still be destroyed by the combined damage of the whole offensive fleet. And the AI will aggressively research weapons + miniaturization, and upgrade its designs accordingly.

That being said, in my experience so far I'm usually doing better with some defenses (specifically versus the main AI offensive weapons) than with an all-offensive design, simply because of the higher chances of having some surviving crafts.
Reply #2 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
While I generally agree with Iztok, I think in the endgame you really want a mix of solo all attack ships backed up by fleets of 5 huge hulls with an emphasis on defense. Using your all attack ships as suicide missiles to weaken AI fleets and then cleaning up the remainders with a large def heavy fleet will limit your casualties and keep you gaining exp.

Hope that helps,
Wyndstar
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Reply #3 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Hi!
How effective is the Most Defense strategy?

In early to mid game it's simply a killer strategy. What I need for it to start working is:
- medium hull,
- 10-15 spaces for weapon(s) - any type my opponent doesn't use defenses for. Attack strenght 2-4.
- 10-15 spaces for engines (Ion or Impulse III). If small uni or lack of space on ship, then even none,
- in remaining space I fill the proper type of defenses for the weapon my opponet uses. Defenses are usually strenght 2-3 each, 6-8 pieces on a ship.

Such a ship usually destroys 3-6 fleets of opponents's ships (usually 3-4 small or medium ships), before I need to recall it for repairs. I also build only a few of them, depending on the amount of fleets I need to destroy to successfully invade and conquer most AI's planets in the shortest time possible, to avoid the hattered "seecret meeting - war has expanded" event. In game size I like to play (5-10 planets per player) 3-5 such ships and a dozen of troop transports effectively remove one AI from the game in less than 5 turns. After one AI is removed, I IMMEDIATELY move those ships on the next AI that's using the kind of weapon my ships are properly defended, and repeat the previous procedure. And keep repeating until there's no more AIs that can be conquered so easily. At the mid game I have usually removed 2 or 3 AIs out of 9, and taken their planets. The rest of the game is then just a matter of execution.

Like I mentioned, such a strategy works perfectly in small games I prefer to play for two reasons: I dislike managing huge amounts of planets, and my weak home comp also. I also see a mayor weakness in such a strategy: weak-attack ships are way to easy counter-designed. But in ALL my games I haven't seen a good counterdesign. IMO this is either:
- I remove the AI to fast for it to react, or
- AI doesn't recognize my low-attack ships as a threat, and keeps building wrong ships.

IMO both reasons could be tested in a game with less opponents, but the same amount of planets, so ~20 planets per player. Maybe I'll start such game when I finish my current one, just to check what will happen.

BR, Iztok
Reply #4 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Hi!
I think in the endgame you really want a mix of solo all attack ships backed up by fleets of 5 huge hulls with an emphasis on defense.

OFC you're right, but in my games I'm usually the only one with the huge hull when the game ends. Like I said, I like small games and slowest tech...

Thinking again, I'm usually the only one with the huge hull regardless of the speed of the research. I really need to try a game with lots of planets per player.

BR, Iztok

Reply #5 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Hi!
Such a ship usually destroys 3-6 fleets of opponents's ships (usually 3-4 small or medium ships),

Err, this is a mistake: it should be "small or tiny ships".
Fingers quicker that the mind.

BR, Iztok
Reply #7 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
In early to mid game it's simply a killer strategy. What I need for it to start working is:
- medium hull,
- 10-15 spaces for weapon(s) - any type my opponent doesn't use defenses for. Attack strenght 2-4.
- 10-15 spaces for engines (Ion or Impulse III). If small uni or lack of space on ship, then even none,
- in remaining space I fill the proper type of defenses for the weapon my opponet uses. Defenses are usually strenght 2-3 each, 6-8 pieces on a ship.

Such a ship usually destroys 3-6 fleets of opponents's ships (usually 3-4 small or medium ships), before I need to recall it for repairs. I also build only a few of them, depending on the amount of fleets I need to destroy to successfully invade and conquer most AI's planets in the shortest time possible, to avoid the hattered "seecret meeting - war has expanded" event. In game size I like to play (5-10 planets per player) 3-5 such ships and a dozen of troop transports effectively remove one AI from the game in less than 5 turns. After one AI is removed, I IMMEDIATELY move those ships on the next AI that's using the kind of weapon my ships are properly defended, and repeat the previous procedure. And keep repeating until there's no more AIs that can be conquered so easily. At the mid game I have usually removed 2 or 3 AIs out of 9, and taken their planets. The rest of the game is then just a matter of execution.

Like I mentioned, such a strategy works perfectly in small games I prefer to play for two reasons: I dislike managing huge amounts of planets, and my weak home comp also. I also see a mayor weakness in such a strategy: weak-attack ships are way to easy counter-designed. But in ALL my games I haven't seen a good counterdesign. IMO this is either:
- I remove the AI to fast for it to react, or
- AI doesn't recognize my low-attack ships as a threat, and keeps building wrong ships.

IMO both reasons could be tested in a game with less opponents, but the same amount of planets, so ~20 planets per player. Maybe I'll start such game when I finish my current one, just to check what will happen.

BR, Iztok


So how's this:

Hull: Medium
Miniaturization: Enhanced
Size = 59

Impulse Drive 3 - Size 14, Speed 2, 50 bc

Harpoon 3 - Size 10, Damage 3, 55 bc
Harpoon 3 - Size 10, Damage 3, 55 bc

Telepathic Defense - Size 5, Absorb 3, 70 bc
Telepathic Defense - Size 5, Absorb 3, 70 bc
Telepathic Defense - Size 5, Absorb 3, 70 bc
Shields - Size 6, Absorb 2, 20 bc

General Life Support - Size 3, Range 0.8, 3 bc

Cost = 488 bc

Attack Damage = 6( Missile )
Defense = 5/10/4( 9 Point Defense + 2 Shields + 5% Tech Bonus )
HP = 23( Xinathium Hull Plating )
Speed = 5(Warp Drive researched)
Sensors = 3
Range = 0.8

13150 RP from start to make a fleet of 4.(Advanced Logistics, Sensors 3 researched)


Yeah, I know I can bolt on an extra Shields and an extra TeleDefense if I scrapped one Harpoon, but with only 3 attack, it feels too easy to counter. My next designs after this one are large hulls with Advanced Miniaturization.

I'd only be using the defensive strategy when playing Good Alignment because they get much better early to mid-game defenses. That way, I can research up to those superior defenses for each category and shift my military research focus to weaponry and propulsion so as to have good all-offensive late-game designs, or otherwise research weapons up to a high level and then continue with defenses so as to have offensive kamikazes and high-defensive fleets in the late game.

Why aren't balanced ships effective? With one kind of defense and one kind of weapon researched up high, and based on simply not letting your enemies know what's on your ships(by hiding them during peacetime, using decoys, and using counter-espionage).

With Neutral or Evil, however, I'm going for all-attack.
Reply #8 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Why aren't balanced ships effective?


Because they don't have enough defense to survive against "all attack" fleets, and they don't have enough attack to scratch "mostly defense" fleets. The farther you get in the tech tree, the more this is true.

Good luck,
Wyndstar
Reply #9 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
But they have enough defense to block the 'mostly defense' fleets and can thus sit out 300 volleys until the mostly-defensive ships get exploded by the time limit.

But this means:

All Attack > Balanced - due to the tie rule
Balanced > Most Defense - as above
Most Defense > All Attack - until late-game

So early and mid-game are a rock-paper-scissors thing, but end game is either all attack or kamikaze+defensive combos.
Reply #10 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Hi!
PeskyFly, IMO you need first-hand experience. Please don't argue you have exams. In the time you've spend here on forum, you could've finished 3 small games.

BTW there's no balanced ships from AI until (late) mid-game, just all-attack ones.

BR, Iztok
Reply #11 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

Hi!
How effective is the Most Defense strategy?

In early to mid game it's simply a killer strategy. What I need for it to start working is:
- medium hull,
- 10-15 spaces for weapon(s) - any type my opponent doesn't use defenses for. Attack strenght 2-4.
- 10-15 spaces for engines (Ion or Impulse III). If small uni or lack of space on ship, then even none,
- in remaining space I fill the proper type of defenses for the weapon my opponet uses. Defenses are usually strenght 2-3 each, 6-8 pieces on a ship.

Such a ship usually destroys 3-6 fleets of opponents's ships (usually 3-4 small or medium ships), before I need to recall it for repairs. I also build only a few of them, depending on the amount of fleets I need to destroy to successfully invade and conquer most AI's planets in the shortest time possible, to avoid the hattered "seecret meeting - war has expanded" event. In game size I like to play (5-10 planets per player) 3-5 such ships and a dozen of troop transports effectively remove one AI from the game in less than 5 turns. After one AI is removed, I IMMEDIATELY move those ships on the next AI that's using the kind of weapon my ships are properly defended, and repeat the previous procedure. And keep repeating until there's no more AIs that can be conquered so easily. At the mid game I have usually removed 2 or 3 AIs out of 9, and taken their planets. The rest of the game is then just a matter of execution.

Like I mentioned, such a strategy works perfectly in small games I prefer to play for two reasons: I dislike managing huge amounts of planets, and my weak home comp also. I also see a mayor weakness in such a strategy: weak-attack ships are way to easy counter-designed. But in ALL my games I haven't seen a good counterdesign. IMO this is either:
- I remove the AI to fast for it to react, or
- AI doesn't recognize my low-attack ships as a threat, and keeps building wrong ships.

IMO both reasons could be tested in a game with less opponents, but the same amount of planets, so ~20 planets per player. Maybe I'll start such game when I finish my current one, just to check what will happen.

BR, Iztok


I've tried out this strategy for the first time in my custom race game with the 'Nuts' - A Good-Aligned Super Dominator anti-Snathi squirrel race. With Fast tech rate, I managed to get your described kind of ship by the beginning of 2227. I built one, and sent it to destroy the technologically lagging Drengin.

The Drengin Defenders had one Stinger and one ECM - but being in orbit, their attack was doubled. So the net result is that they had 4 Missile attack and 1 Point Defense each.

My medium hull had an Impulse Drive Mk.3 engine, 3 Missile attack(it was armed with a single Harpoon), and 23 Point Defense, which comes from six Good-only Telepathic Defenses combined with a 10% Defense Bonus from the Universalists Party, a 5% Weapons/Defense boost from a Military Resource, and another 5% Defense Bonus from researching Telepathic Defense.
I also had a 50% Luck Bonus.

So during an attack on Kona, my cruiser destroyed all the Drengin Defenders but one of them managed to inflict 3 damage AFTER the killing shot had hit it. During a later attack on Drengi, the exact same thing happened. This time, I got a screen of it.



Such illogical-looking damage never occurred again in the game. The Korath later attacked me and paid for it with the total destruction of their empire by my improved defensive ships(re-optimized to fight MK.4 Railguns with Arnorian Battle Armor and Photonic Torpedoes, and powered by a Warp Drive engine).



Recently, I launched a surprise attack on the Korx, who had Harpoon-armed, ECM-fitted Frigates with Orbital Fleet Managers, better Logistics(Advanced vs. my Enhanced), and an economy slightly stronger than my own. I managed to destroy the Korx with frigates that were fitted with Photon Torpedoes, Mk.3 Droid Sentries, and Warp Drive Mk.5 engines. Never did my 3 frigates(that's all I ever built) take any damage again from ships, only a bit here and there from beam-armed Starbases.



But what happened in the first scenario? Is this 'defense depletion', or a bug? I know my defenses couldn't have rolled 0 or 1 - with 50% Luck, they should've rolled at least 11.

" But in ALL my games I haven't seen a good counterdesign. IMO this is either:
- I remove the AI to fast for it to react, or
- AI doesn't recognize my low-attack ships as a threat, and keeps building wrong ships."

This game was Challenging with all Bright AI, large Galaxy, Rare Stars/Planets/Habitable, and Abundant Asteroids(My ships are mostly built from asteroid resources). The Drengin and Korath were removed too fast. The Korx did counterdesign(hence the ECM), but couldn't research past ECM 3 before getting destroyed.
Reply #12 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Hi!
I know my defenses couldn't have rolled 0 or 1 - with 50% Luck, they should've rolled at least 11.

AFAIK Luck ability affects only weapons' rolls, not defense rolls.

I too have been asking here about similar "impossible" hits I saw in the battle viewer. What might happen with this shoot is the so called (but unconfirmed from developers) "Super shoot": all weapons bonus the ship has added to the attack of the first weapon firing from it. So the first Harpoon fired not from 0 to 3 but from 0 to 3 + weapons bonus. But as I wrote, unconfirmed.  

BRm, Iztok
Reply #13 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
AFAIK Luck ability affects only weapons' rolls, not defense rolls.


That's a surprise. Luck SHOULD help defenses as well. Anyway, that means despite 50% Luck, my defense could still have rolled 0 or 1. That kind of sucks.

The Nuts game is over now with Influence Victory. Another 'impossible hit' occurred against a Torian Defender. It reduced one of my ships' HP from 28 to 26. That ship then spent 2 turns in orbit around around the newly captured planet Toria with Micro Repair Bots working on it - and it ended up with 32 HP out of a maximum of 28(this should've been impossible as well - the ship hadn't gained a level during the attack). These 4 'illegal' hit points didn't disappear even upon launching, or even in combat later on vs. the Thalans.

I also built the Empathic Tactical Center on Korx, thinking it would help my defensive ships quite a bit as I began deploying overkill Zero-Point Armor and Aereon Missile Defenses before the Thalan war(they had researched Photonic Torps, traded Nano Rippers from others, and were using both). The frigging Empathic Tactical Center looks awesome on the planet map, but it was ridiculously expensive to build - Eyes of the Universe and Restaurant of Eternity were both started and finished by me on industrially far weaker planets than the Precursor-Mine-gifted Korx, while the ETC was still being built. Bah!