dystopic dystopic

bussard ramjets, cryonic stasis, and exoplanetary colonization

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bussard ramjets, cryonic stasis, and exoplanetary colonization

what will it take?

from GalCiv2 Forums
hello everyone,

i'm a bit of a writer, and i can't help but feel drawn to science fiction. that shouldn't be surprising.

lately i've been reading up a great deal on theoretical physics, exobiological speculation, and all that. i was dismayed at first to learn that the chances of faster-than-light travel being physically possible are slim. it was also pretty discouraging when i sat down and looked at the actual speeds that'd be required to traverse sizable parts of the galaxy in a single conscious lifetime. it was a kick when i was down to learn about how difficult terraforming probably would be. but the more i've been learning, the more i've been excited about telling a different kind of science fiction story.

to draw an analogue to our world, the thing that made both the european colonial age and the modern process of globalization have been technology. it's not that we couldn't go to various places around the world before, it just cost too damn much to make anything worth it. i got my BA in sociology, and these sorts of things interest me.

if FTL travel isn't possible, then more than likely it'll be too damn costly to ever colonize beyond our own solar system as the way it's been envisioned in most of the celebrated scifi universes. But there are examples such as Arthur C. Clarke's Songs of a Distant Earth or Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri where humans colonize to escape destruction on earth.

recently i had the chance to meet both Kim Stanley Robinson and Geoff Ryman. Robinson is a hard scifi writer after my own heart; the Mars Trilogy is a really interesting look at our first attempts to colonize within our own star system. Ryman was actually more interesting to talk to, though. maybe because few people have ever heard of him (i was only there because i work at UCSD where he was being hosted). but i actually got to talk to him. he said he thinks we probably won't ever leave our galactic neighborhood.

i'm interested in writing a hard scifi story (or series) myself. i'm interested from a sociological point of view: what would drive us to colonize space? from a writer's point of view, i want to keep the earth around, so i'm not interested in a flight from disaster. what would societies be like after colonies were established? trade would be difficult, but not impossible. same goes for war.

while i'm certainly interested in contributions along those lines, i'm also interested in learning more about the hard science and engineering behind interstellar travel. i've got a lot of questions i haven't been able to answer through wikipedia and google alone. but i'm not about to list them all here.

it seems like a discussion about real ("real") colonization and space travel could use a place on these boards.

i'll kick it off. i've been reading up on propultion especially, and bussard ramjets seem like the most economically feasible option since they gather their fuel as they go - perhaps especially if it could be hybridized with another form such as antimatter-catalyzed fusion. the wikipedia article on bussard ramjets describe that they'd probably need what is essentially a magnetic funnel or ramscoop to gather interstellar hydrogen as propellant.

The mass of the ion ram scoop must be minimized on an interstellar ramjet. The size of the scoop is large enough that the scoop cannot be solid. This is best accomplished by using an electromagnetic field, or alternatively using an electrostatic field to build the ion ram scoop. Such an ion scoop will use electromagnetic funnels, or electrostatic fields to collect ionized hydrogen gas from space for use as propellant by ramjet propulsion systems (since much of the hydrogen is not ionized, some versions of a scoop propose ionizing the hydrogen, perhaps with a laser, ahead of the ship.) An electric field can electrostatically attract the positive ions, and thus draw them inside a ramjet engine. The electromagnetic funnel would bend the ions into helical spirals around the magnetic field lines to scoop up the ions via the starship's motion through space. Ionized particles moving in spirals produce an energy loss, and hence drag; the scoop must be designed to both minimize the circular motion of the particles and simultaneously maximize the collection. Likewise, if the hydrogen is heated during collection, thermal radiation will represent an energy loss, and hence also drag; so an effective scoop must collect and compress the hydrogen without significant heating.


talk about kick-butt imagery! spirals of heated gas careening towards a ship only to be fused and expelled in a jet plume? sweet.

anyway, i've written enough, and i hope it hasn't put anyone off. some of the the community here has proven to be very well read with regard to these kinds of science, so i thought it'd make a great topic for discussion: all things related to space exploration and colonization with reasonable extrapolations of current technology.

my biggest point of curiostiy was with respect to ramjets, so i'll take the kickoff: could the spiral motion of the inbound gas somehow be harnessed to artficially generate gravity by rotating the ship, instead of producing drag?

any volunteers?

final words: i hope no one minds my double-motive. i won't try to steer any dicussion, though if things quiet down i might pose more general questions to keep it going; i encourage anyone interested to pose your own!
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Reply #701 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Hello! has anyone here figured out the meaning of life yet?
End of quote




the meaning of life is to improve oneself. and if one cannot improve oneself then one is to help others improve themselves.
Reply #702 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
the meaning of life is to improve oneself. and if one cannot improve oneself then one is to help others improve themselves.
End of quote


That is not the meaning of life, it is just a good way to live life.

I have wondered about the meaning of life? I think there are clues all around us, the things that inspire us, the things that are so unexpected, so beautiful as to bring tears to our eyes. We make movies of heroes and justice, look at movies like Armaggedon, Amastad, William Wilberforce, 300, the list goes on.

Why do these things make us feel that way? Why are such things so inspiring, what does it mean?

The meaning of life is a beautiful flower that grows from the cracks in the concrete of the deepest darkest city, it is the soldier who stands against the might of an invincible enemy, it is the one who stands for truth and justice against all odds, it is the starving child in a poverty stricken country who knows something incredible that could change the world – if only we would listen, the meaning of life is the impossible, to find beauty and wisdom and courage where there should be none, it is the stone that the builders rejected, the impossible act of an almighty God to sacrifice part of himself to save us.

I think the meaning of life is summed up in the lyrics of this song (possibly not 100% accurate);

to dream the impossible dream, to fight the unbeatable for, to bear with unbearable sorrow, to reach the unreachable star well this is my quest, to follow that star, no matter how hopeless, no matter how far, to fight for the right without question or pause, to be willing to march into hell, for a heavenly cause, and I know that if I can only be true to this glorious quest, that my heart will lie sleeping and calm when I law to my rest. And the world will be thankful for this, that one man beat and covered in scars, still strove with his last ounce of courage, to reach the unreachable star.
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Reply #703 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
We make movies of heroes and justice, look at movies like Armaggedon, Amastad, William Wilberforce, 300, the list goes on.
End of quote


why do we look up to these people. because we aspire to be like them. better than what we are.
Reply #704 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
why do we look up to these people. because we aspire to be like them. better than what we are.
End of quote


But it isn't how good a person is, if anything it is the opposite, remember the recent Dr House episode, and the prostitute chose to stay with the client - bingo that is the meaning of life right there!

Damb, that episode of Dr House realy nailed it   
Reply #705 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Dr House
End of quote


cant remember anything i didn't watch.


but that is what i am talking about. life is about improving youself.


christ said so everytime he helped someone to go and sin no more.
Reply #706 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
cant remember anything i didn't watch.
End of quote


Oh you should watch it, If you havn't seen Dr House before, it is a show with some very profound life lessons.

The main Character says he dousn't believe in God, but there is a subtle undertone that he 'wrestles with God'(among other things), and that is somthing so many people do in real life, the show is ingenious!

Reply #707 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
sorry everyone, i've been kind out of it myself. had a week off work and just mostly vegetated.

on the subject of the meaning of life, i'd say self-improvement is a pretty good one. but i don't necessarily believe that there is a single meaning to life. each life means different things to different people. a somewhat vague and open-ended meaning like 'self-improvement' can be inspirational, but it doesn't help much with the nitty-gritty of individual lives.

as a writer and as the kind of person who likes to be able to help is friends from time to time, i find it helps a lot of focus on concrete details. but this is coming from a guy whose inclination is to see everything in the abstract; people (including teachers) have called me (overly) 'theoretical' and 'a metonymic thinker' among other phrases. i have a tough time remembering things like names and dates, details of things. but i guess and example of my 'self-improvement' has been to try and change that. after observing how often people do (and even need to) focus on the small details, i began to saw how i can better relate to others by changing my mental patterns from time to time.

a term like 'self-improvement' isn't necessarily wrong to describe that, or the reasons for it. all things said, i'd probably aim for 'understanding' as the meaning to my life personally; it's a little more specific than self-improvement, but it doesn't discount it either.
Reply #708 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
the elements of the ancient world

earth, wind, water, fire.

the elements of the modern world

solid, liquid, gas, plasma.

looks like they came close to me.


the first time the atom bomb was thought of/up.

an Arab leader under attack i believe by Ganges.
Reply #709 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Jus throwin this out there but i always felt the meaning of life was to just simply live...and reproduce.
Reply #710 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
ah you people talking about the meaning of life. If you want to know, go and ask a minister or what ever you call the leader of the church you go to. if you are not going to a church, then go visit a phycaiatrist(don't know if I spelled that right).

I think that you should be focused on the future and the fate of the human civilization. Think of all of the problems that are going on right now in the world, pick one and get it fixed.

anyone thought about direct mass-energy generation?
Reply #711 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Hello! has anyone here figured out the meaning of life yet?
End of quote


"I know not the destination; I can only walk the path"

anyone thought about direct mass-energy generation?
End of quote


It would be extremely inefficient. The energy input to isolate, control, and destroy matter would be colossal, and then you have to consider the apparatus that is doing this, particularly if said device is used for propulsion; such a large device would require huge amounts of energy to undergo any desired acceleration, whereas a smaller device requires less. Not to say that the overall effect wouldn't result in a positive energy output (I don't know any numbers to confirm this), but my point is just that in terms of net resources involved, we may not need such a device except in the most extreme situations. It would be like building cars using atom colliders rather than gas engines.

Now, if we could find some sort of chain reaction by which matter was destroyed, then we may be on to something, but the likelihood of such a reaction is slim (my evidence: the universe hasn't been destroyed by a rogue reaction). And if it did exist, controlling it would be hell.
Reply #712 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
ah you people talking about the meaning of life. If you want to know, go and ask a minister or what ever you call the leader of the church you go to. if you are not going to a church, then go visit a phycaiatrist(don't know if I spelled that right).

I think that you should be focused on the future and the fate of the human civilization. Think of all of the problems that are going on right now in the world, pick one and get it fixed.
End of quote


see, here you contradict yourself and you insult others, good going.

Acewing, i have no idea if you intend to continue participating in this discussion. if you do, please keep one thing in mind: respect. if you must insult others, please do so elsewhere.

for the more substantive reply, i think your presumption that the question of life's meaning is unrelated to the future of civilization is an ill-educated one. while the endless conversations about the meaning of life can be trivial or repetative from time to time, and even verge on dogmatic at others, the very question itself is one that will bear on the actions an individual takes in life. i'm sure if more people had decided the meaning of life was to enslave others, the world would be very different now.

a chinese proverb goes something like: "i must rectify my self before i can rectify my household, and i must rectify my household before i can rectify my town..." (it goes on to empire). (and, i can think of plenty modern politicians that could stand to use that advice  "
Reply #713 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
but this is coming from a guy whose inclination is to see everything in the abstract; people (including teachers) have called me (overly) 'theoretical' and 'a metonymic thinker' among other phrases. i have a tough time remembering things like names and dates, details of things.
End of quote


Sounds like me! When i was doing my horticulture degree i had to learn all the botanical names for plants, i used to write the names on the back of a stack of pictures and flip through them. I would have a remember pile and a forget pile each time i went through them, over time the remember pile would get big and the forget pile would have 3 or 4 stubborn unrememberables! Funny thing is that the ones i couldn't remember were not even long complicated names, just for some unknown reason, my brain couldn't remember them... kinda like that hidden blind spot with eyesight?

the first time the atom bomb was thought of/up.

an Arab leader under attack i believe by Ganges.
End of quote


Interesting... although i think they probably might have needed to know atoms exist before having any chance of comprehending fission!

Jus throwin this out there but i always felt the meaning of life was to just simply live...and reproduce.
End of quote


That is what a rabbit would say! lol

ah you people talking about the meaning of life. If you want to know, go and ask a minister or what ever you call the leader of the church you go to. if you are not going to a church, then go visit a phycaiatrist(don't know if I spelled that right). I think that you should be focused on the future and the fate of the human civilization. Think of all of the problems that are going on right now in the world, pick one and get it fixed.
End of quote


Ok everyone, new rule, from now on you cannot talk unless it is somthing to do with helping mandkind! Oh and another thing, if you need advice on the game, sorry, that is not helping mandkind so your outa luck!! If your in the toilet, and your out of toilet paper, don't think you can call somone to pass you more, nope, thats not speaking to help mandkind, so your outa luck!!

"I know not the destination; I can only walk the path"
End of quote


Nice, but the end does not justify the means!! lol



a chinese proverb goes something like: "i must rectify my self before i can rectify my household, and i must rectify my household before i can rectify my town..." (it goes on to empire). (and, i can think of plenty modern politicians that could stand to use that advice "
End of quote


Bible: "remove the log from your own eye before picking on the stick in somone elses eye" and my favourite... "he who is without sin, may cast the first stone".

On the other hand, being imperfect is no excuse to shrug off responsibility to give humble guidance and aid your fellow man to become a better person!
Reply #714 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

That is what a rabbit would say! lol
End of quote


Lol. Perhaps. I would expect any kind of life to think that way though(and im sure they do), we live to give life(reproduce), that is the most important thing any living thing can do. I certainly dont mean thats all life should be, individual happiness is just as important(as without it the individual wouldnt be very successful) and thats where everything gets complicated i think.
Everyone has thier own boats they gotta float.

I guess all i mean is the meaning of life(to me)is simply to live and be happy doing it and make sure you and your species survive,(lol)hardly a concern now with the abundance of people but hopfully you get my drift.

Self improvment is definatly important in many ways from individual happiness to overall success of your species as one wise person can do so much for everyone and everything we share this planet with.

...Well i hope i havnt come off as some sort of idiot, i do look forward to hearing other peoples thoughts on it... Actually i know the people in this thread are very smart as i did indeed read this whole thread!

Reply #715 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
It seems as though most people are answering the question of the meaning of life, with the processes of life itself? I’m not suggesting that is wrong? What about obscure answers like ‘42’? lol

I have one term which answers the meaning of life…… ‘free will’


Reply #716 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Interesting... although i think they probably might have needed to know atoms exist before having any chance of comprehending fission!
End of quote



he didnt know about atoms. he stated that he could see a bomb using the smallest thing that made up matter
Reply #717 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
It seems as though most people are answering the question of the meaning of life, with the processes of life itself?
End of quote


i think the best way to look at an abstract question like that is through observable characteristics. what makes people happy, and feel accomplished? surely, that has to be related to the meaning of life.

and for many, a family, some security and comfort is enough. so TriPp's idea has some empirical merit. and deep down, i think everyone wants those things, but different people have different scopes and lenses of experience. though i think there's something to be said for a drive for freedom as well (not trivial or even legal freedoms necessarily, but more deeply intellectual and emotional freeoms).
Reply #718 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
he didnt know about atoms. he stated that he could see a bomb using the smallest thing that made up matter
End of quote


Well if that is true, then it is just another example of how modern man thinks he is so smart compared to ye old days, yet in reality, not so smart after all!
Reply #719 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
(not trivial or even legal freedoms necessarily, but more deeply intellectual and emotional freeoms).
End of quote


As deep as the freedom to choose between good and evil!

Well personally, believing in God, it makes sense to me that freedom is the key thing that explains exactly why the world is what it is today.

When i asked myself, how can a perfect God create imperfect beings - humans or fallen angels? The link between perfection and evil is 'free will'.

Free will in itself is not an imperfect thing, thus a perfect God is capable of creating free will which in turn will inevitably result in evil occuring at some stage.

The story of Adam and Eve for example, the fall of man, resulting in the very imperfect human race we have today, that all happened because of free will.

Reply #720 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
It seems as though most people are answering the question of the meaning of life, with the processes of life itself?
End of quote


I think that is the Key difference. We define our own lives, not by living, growing, and reproducing, but by our experiences and roles in society. While a yeast only lives to grow and reproduce, Humans beleive that their life has meaning; probably a result of our advanced intelligence and socialization (compared to other organisms)

Humans think that they have potential and to reach that potential we set out to accomplish goals. A career, Family, Children. We think our lives have a purpose simply beyond breeding. Was Person X a good parent, a hard worker, a balanced individual? Our intelligence lets us rate and coompare ourselves to others and society at large. Acheiving sucess in our culture (the means, of course, differ from culture to culture) is what gives our lives meaning.

It sounds circular and absurd, but I feel the meaning of life is simply giving your own life meaning. Living with a purpose if you will.

I think this is very important to our dicussions about the future and space travel, because we put such a high value on the right to experience life. To take a cue from hollywood, Having people living in test tubes ala the Matrix (forget the whole computer simulated world thing for a sec), while technically still alive, isn't really living. In our future world, we figure one of our major motivations for colonizing would be the desire of the colonists to start a new, Better life than the one they had. In a sense it helps to attempt to atleast describe what gives people's lives meaning, etc. That way we can see how a future colony might set its self up.

That's my 2 cents!
Reply #721 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
my meaning of life is...... it is........ ummmm......... uhhh......   ..... errr......... heck, I don't know! The meaning of life is to get the most out of it?

oh, yeah, Dr. House is cool.
Reply #722 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
to cherish every moment because you are lucky to be alive? to enjoy what you have? to make the best out of every situation!

I have to stop thinking so hard.
or start thinking harder...
I'm not good at self reflection.
Reply #723 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
In our future world, we figure one of our major motivations for colonizing would be the desire of the colonists to start a new, Better life than the one they had.
End of quote



Actually i can imagine our motivation for a colony on another planet being similar to the motivation for climbing a mountain.
Reply #724 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
lets go back to space.


i have a question. if you take your engine to full speed. then coast for an hour(random number). you then fire your engines again to full speed would you then double your speed. minus the speed you may have lost during that hour.
Reply #725 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
if you take your engine to full speed.
End of quote


Engines don't have a full speed. Engines provide acceleration (which may be adjustable by changing some part of the engine), but any positive acceleration will always increase the speed of its vessel over time. It is only in the presence of a medium (such as air) that engines will have a "top speed"; this is because as the vessel increases speed, the resistance of said medium also increases, which provides a negative acceleration to the vessel. Terminal velocity (to get all technical) occurs when the positive acceleration is equaled, and therefore neutralized, by the negative acceleraion, stopping the increase in speed.