GalCiv 2 and the blind

An excellent point you bring up, its unfortunate that most games are designed with the greater body of consumers in mind. I think it would be an excellent exercise for the devs to create a system that will enable blind people to play. Simply put it would make them better designers as a task such as this is quite difficult and requires a different mindset to implement.

Hiya,
Thanks for your agreement on this point. I think it's a combination of lack of awareness and a conviction that nobody would buy a game which had been specially designed for the blind. That second bit I can understand, and to a lesser extent the first. But never mind that...
I for one would be extatic if GalCiv 2 were to be somehow modded and or otherwise enhanced for the blind. Stardock, or whoever was behind it, would get my everlasting gratitude. I am being quite serious here. As I said before, I can play Chess and such just fine--not like hand/eye coordination is really necesary...
Anyway, thanks for the reply, and I hope something comes of this, no matter what it is.
Yours,
Zack.

How could the game be made more accessable to the blind? I've never heard of a "screen reader" actually... I'd made the (probably foolish) assumption that the majority of computer use is restricted for the visually impaired.

Hiya,
Well, it is difficult for me to describe how a game I've never played could be made more accessible. However, there are a couple points...
3D graphics, or indeed any graphics at all are probably unnecesary. I can work just fine with a purely audio interface or text-based interface even.
Next, as long as the controls are reasonably close to standard Windows ones, and are standard Windows where ever possible, I can manage. This is assuming the game isn't just entirely audio based.
I'm going to be realistic here and say that probably nothing can be done. The game is already released and in any case the changes required might be fairly big.
But, I just thought I'd throw the idea out there and see what people thought. I'm gratified at least one person is interested.
If you're curious, www.audiogames.net is a good site for the current state of blind accessible gaming.
Cheers, and thanks,
Zack.

Thanks for the link. I hope to be making games professionally in three to four years, so this kind of stuff is always interesting to think about. The kinds of games I'm hoping to make are probably completely impossible to make accessable enough, but I still think it's a good thing to think about.

A very interesting idea. Makes me wonder if it is possible to make some kind of 'feel' display (I think this technology already exists for braille?) where the pixels push outward instead of lighting up or something like that.
Then it would be possible to create a galaxy sim game, where a visually impaired person could feel a map, the size of planets and fleets. Combined with text
and auditory information this could make a fun game I think. Playing gigantic maps may get a bit time consuming though.

www.audiogames.net

Very nice website, I understand that there aren't many screenshots to see what the game looks like, but it would be nice if perhaps it included some audio shots to hear how the game listens, before I download it?

As it is, the majority of GalCiv II is actually charts, stats, lists and coordinates: the only true obstacle I actually think would be an issue would be the galactic map itself. If someone ever manaages to crack that, then you'd pretty much be able to play GalCiv in it's entirety (though you'd definately miss out big on the whole ship design part... a pity).

Perhaps a coordinate plane with latitude and longtitude would help? As it is, almost everthing in the game can be located via it's coordinates and such, so maybe if Brad were to design a system that allows a person to see the planets, star systems, ships and resources via it's coordinates then it just might be possible to play fairly well!

It does seem like the main map is the only thing that would need major additions to support a screen reader. I surely like the idea as a secondary goal for the devs--it would almost certainly entail improving the keyboard support, which would please many of us who have no love of mousing around.

Zachary, I appreciate what you said about feeling a bit detached when you play with sighted help, but if you can get a good friend hooked you could play as a duo. When Civilization was brand new, I knew a few sets of folks (me included) who did things like that, with one person being Secretary of War or Minister of Cocktails while the other did the clicking and typing.

I admit that I haven't seen this pattern much since PCs got so darned common and I got farther from being a college student...

Well, I for one would love to see this sort of a system introduced. I realize it is a little complicated and probably not intuitive in the visual sense, but wow! The very notion of being able to play something like this on my own, whenever I felt the inclination--have you any idea how often that is? Heh!
It just amazes me to think of it. I would hope something could be worked out...
For the present, sighted help is good...I'm dealing with a few troubling gameplay issues, but that's a different boat entirely.
Please do write back, if anybody still has interest in making this happen.
All the best,
Zack.

Well I can think of an easy (for the devs, at least) way of doing it: the onboard coordinate system. The game already keeps track of where everything is in a x,y plane, they just need to make that accessible to the screen reading program. Unfortunately, this is the kind of thing that really does need to be done by the developers - we don't have access to that kind of low-level detail.

Thinking about it, I somehow doubt you're going to want to try and keep track of a 256x256 grid in your head, so you'd probably want to limit yourself to smaller maps. Assuming this ever gets off the ground...

I read this post last week, but I didn't feel like I had anything productive to add. But I realized I do have one obvious thing to say:

I too support this idea. It might not be possible economically, but I support it nonetheless.

But personally, I do think it could pay back Stardock in the end. The game is a memory hog, but the only thing the 3-D engine is really needed for is designing ships. While that's a lot of fun (my favorite part of the game in fact), it's not an essential part of the game rules. In fact, sometimes I feel like I got two toys with GC2: a fun if simple strategy game that happens to run a bit slow on large map settings, and a great set of virtual legos.

I agree with GW Swicord; I think they could improve the game for everyone by doing a few things to make it more accessible. I'd also love a stronger keyboard interface. I really dislike mouse-based interfaces. Some other things they could do would make it better for sighted players as well. I'm always wishing I had a better system to notify me of things going on around my planets (sometimes I miss a ship that snuck by between my turns).

Also, I'm going to check out that website a little more this evening. Looks very interesting.

Well, if developers are interested in doing this kind of thing I am quite willing to answer any questions they may have about what might work. Now, here is an unfortunately troubling fact: what works well for me may not for any other blind folks I know, but c'est la vie. We can only do what we can do I suppose.
The 2D maps work quite well for me. Truth be told I'm able to play, with a little fiddling, roguelike games with similar concepts. Now, I don't knowith ASCII graphics that way. Granted, it isn't always easy, but I try. If you don't know what roguelike games are, that's not a topic for this forum I don't think. But the fact stands map grids are okay for me generally.
Now, audio interfaces. I love em. They are the single most important way I have of accessing a computer. Forget Braille displays. It's a sad fact that a single line, forty-cell model, the most common available, costs in the neighborhood of $5,000 USD. There are no multiline models at all, let alone full display models, making a Brailled map unworkable.
But an audio map, with an interface to let me select stars or planets or whatever to act on...I'd love that sort of thing.
Just throwing out a few notions.
Hope this helps,
Zack.

Brad or Cari,

I think a comment, even a 'It's just too hard' or 'we will never be able to afford it', would be a nice gesture here.

drrider

Hi,
I can't speak for developers, of course. All I can say is that I would hope it can be done, and wouldn't be too difficult a job. As I've said before I'm more than willing to test things.
The world of blind computer gaming has always been an interesting one. Most if not all the games currently available on the market are relatively simple, arcade-style affairs by today's standards. In recent years there has been a divergence, a desire to try new things. All I can say is I hope Stardock is willing to try new things as well, and set a precedent.
All the best,
Zack.

Sorry to be blunt, but if you're blind how do read these forums? Or play any video game for that matter? Even worse, how do you even use a computer, hard to see the monitor if you are blind.  

Screen readers and touch typing are the visually-impaired's methods for getting around in the virtual world.
There is also a software compliance code, 508, that most Windows productivity programs must adhere to. This code states that all windows and dialogs must be "readable" by a screen reader program. These programs take the text on the screen and feeds it into a text -to-voice engine.
All menus should be accessible by tabbing through them as well as using a mouse to activate them.
It's all quite fascinating really, and a pain to test before shipping a completed product. But it is worth it. My company's products are 508 compliant and I perform the testing. You can get a feel for the walls that some people hit when they are trying to use a computer under these circumstances.

Hi,
I did not know about Section 508, actually. However, it makes relatively little difference in a case like this--GalCiv 2 isn't productivity software. However,, it is software which could with a little tweaking be made perfectly accessible, I believe.
The 3D renderer already needs to keep track of objects in order to display them. It is only a single logical step or two farther to say that an audio interface could be written. Even a text-based interface is not entirely out of the question.
All that being said, I do have a question.
Is losing the ship design aspect of GC 2 a handicap to gameplay? I ask this because there is another 4X-style game, Space Empires III, which I am able to play after a fashion. This includes ship design from a mostly standard Windows dialogue.
I'd really appreciate any input on this. As I've said, whoever manages to make GC 2 playable will have my eternal gratitude, as well as that of anybody else in the blind gaming community who is interested in strategy games.
Thank you much,
Zack.

I don't believe the strategic aspect of ship design requires a visual interface. It's just about deciding how many of what components to include on your ship, which is all about numbers. What makes the custom ship designing in GC 2 unique is that you can customize the way your ships look visually. But that has absolutely no bearing on game play, even though it's personally one of my favorite parts of GC 2.

edit:

honestly, i'd love to be able to switch between standard GC 2 and a "lite" version that wasn't so graphics-heavy. sometimes i play really unexciting games that don't involve much to look at. if i could run a light, primarily text version some of the time, i probably would.

for example, sometimes i decide i want to build a network of starbases. it's overwhelmingly tedious work, no matter how i manage it. doing it in 3D doesn't help a lick, and actually having more textual information available without the lag caused by the 3D engine would make it a lot less of a chore. i'd run that in a window and do other stuff. my game loses stability in windowed mode and when i alt-tab. sometimes i can pull it off, but if i'm playing a late game in a gigantic galaxy... well, let's just say i'm glad i can run winamp in the background and have my global hotkeys mapped to music controls on my keyboard but i'm S.O.L. when i get tired of a play list (that's 15 minutes lost to the RAM dump and re-loading the game, not including however long it takes to decide what i want to listen to instead).

Hiya,
It heartens me somewhat to learn that even ship design is in its essentials a statistical concept. The thing I would want to ensure is mainly that nothing that makes GC 2 a great game--amazing AI, lots and lots of options, freedom to do what the player likes--is lost. Contrary to what a sighted gamer might think, I believe graphics are far less essential than is a good experience and a fun game. It is interesting to me how many people I've tried to encourage to look at textual and audio games who say they can't play without graphics.
But that's just my two cents, and I'll stop ranting for now. Thanks, all, for your support and encouragement in this. I continue to hope that something will be done soon, and look forward to a very playable and entertaining game experience.
All the best,
Zack.

i wonder if they'd be willing to work with volunteer enthusiasts? not me, i have no idea how to do that. but if there were volunteers...



what about "zooming text"? i'm thinking about an interface in which you can get different amalgamations of information. so at the highest "zoom", you know how many stars or planets or ships you can detect in a particular quadrant, or in what quadrant your homeworld is in. you can then 'zoom down' to receive summaries or lists of information for one sector, or 4 sectors, 9, 16, etc. throw in some textual notifications of things that are usually conveyed visually, like when an enemy ship moves near one of your planets or star bases, and i think i could handle it just fine myself.

don't get me wrong, it does seem like a more challenging task than what i'm used to, and a slower pace than what i'm used to. but being able to see, playing the game methodically still involves a lot of regular, thorough examination. i need to check on various parts of the map because i can't see the whole thing at once, and the mini map isn't enough. i don't know why that'd be fundamentally harder to do by text for a large map.

i develop a general impression of the game map in a mental version; i don't remember all the details on a huge map, so i have to focus on particular areas that require frequent attention, and i also make periodic sweeps of everything by various means (either mousing around, or looking at the tables and graphs). i don't think you need sight to do that, the ability is based on a concept of space. you don't get that from seeing, but from all of your senses.

Hi Zack,

Whether this is viable or not, I have no idea. I doubt it, frankly -- at least for this version of the game. Also, I'm getting the distinct impression that Stardock is leaving GalCiv2 behind them, as we rarely get any updates or posts from staff other than Kryo. That's not really a complaint, mind you -- was bound to happen eventually. In any case, I can't see them making something like this a priority at this time, setting aside commercial viability, etc.

Anyway, I do have some experience working with the blind and computers. I was a research assistant for a blind student in university, who later became a good friend of mine, and still is. We were both taking computer science at the time, though neither of us stayed in the program for various reasons. Additionally, one of our professors in the program helped create a lot of the speech software back in the day (as his graduate thesis, IIRC). I doubt any of it is being used today, but I guess his was one of the first.

I suppose if Stardock is interested in looking into something like this, I might be able to assist in some way.

Hiya,
As concerns Stardock leaving GalCiv 2 behind them, I can recognize and understand that possibility. It does sadden me quite a bit, but then again I wouldn't know about specifics as far as it all is concerned.
As far as commercial viability, or the distinct possibility that nothing will come of this, I accept that. Once again, it saddens me somewhat, but I guess life works that way sometimes.
Despite that, I seriously hope that Stardock will at least give consideration to the possibility of doing something like this. I won't reitterate and talk about why I feel it is a nice idea--I just want to play a game, for the most part, which I can't play due to uncontrollable limitations. But once again, if nothing comes of all this, I understand.
Thanks for your support, folks.
Hope to hear back soon.
All the best,
Zack.

Not yet--Cari and CodeCritter are on 1.7 still, AFAIK, and Brad's Gamasutra interview did imply there's more yet to come. But the majority of the team is on other things now so the work hasn't left Cari and CC a lot of spare time for forum interaction.

On the topic of the thread, it's a noble idea to be sure, but personally I'm afraid it would be very unlikely to happen with GC2 for various reasons (chiefly budgetary). But perhaps it's something that can be kept in mind in future games.

Hi,
I know Stardock isn't a game developer in terms of primary focus. I can't speak to the budget concerns or anything else that might be an obstacle.
However, I can ask that every effort be made to try and make something of this. If Stardock can't do it, please, let someone else try. I don't know what kind of access the modding community has to GalCiv 2.
I've also heard of numerous grants, funding opertunities, etc. They all relate to accessibility.
Thank you much,
Zack.