Marcus, near death experiences suggest that God does indeed exist. To prove that God doesn't exist, you would need to know everything about everything. So, yes, the burdon of proof is on us to prove that God exists. Ok, have you looked into near death expeiences? They show that God does exist, and that eternal damnation does not. 300 years ago, we couldn't see atoms or prove they existed. We know now that atoms exist. Now, we can't see, hear, or smell God, etc. So why does that imply he doesn't exist?

near death experiences dont prove anything. those who experienced it saw a bright light that they supposendly were flying towards. or that they floated over them selfs and saw them selfs dying. all this can be illusions by the brain as its dying, not getting enough air. or maybe its just our energy leaving the body to become one with the universe again. nothing is proved.

Read up on near death expericences before you judge. I have been to Christian churches all my life before I made the decision that eternal damnation can't be real.

Explain your idea of "leaving the body to become one with the universe again". Do you believe that we could then reincarnate into a new body from this universal energy?

At any rate, there are people who have experienced near death experiences that go far beyond the simplicity you report. Some only report seeing what you describe, but not all.

Some of these near death experiences are more real and coherent to experiencers than real life is. If your brain is dying from lack of oxygen, why would you experience a state of consciousness that seems more real than real life itself and not like a massive acid trip where you see all kinds of dragons in the air, etc. When you take drugs that mess up your brain, your brain becomes very distorted and less coherent.

I agree that nothing is proved by these experiences. Afterall, to use the burden of proof demanded by many aethiests, you can't prove that gravity is real, atoms are real, etc. Maybe gravity and atoms are illusions of our mind and not real.

Wow, these forums have everything! Game tips, ship designs and even grand questions on the very existence of civilisation!   

Stanley, you are pointing out the flaws with the simplest version of Christianity. You notice all the contradictions and downright silliness, and you're completely correct. That doesn't mean Christianity is stupid; just that the for-the-masses version has huge holes in it.

There are solutions to the problems that you are bringing up. They vary from denomination to denomination. I'm certainly no expert, so I won't try to enumerate, but Wikipedia is a good starting point for deeper explanations. Try looking up "problem of evil" or "problem of hell."

My history is mainly in Eastern Orthodoxy, so I can give you a Coles Notes version of their basic beliefs as I understand them. According to Eastern Orthodox Christianity:

- Heaven and hell are not physical places. It's not white fluffy clouds and pits of fire. They are simply states of your soul after you die.

- God created people with free will. That is, he allows people to choose to do things he doesn't want them to do. He doesn't love you any less for doing it; he's just disappointed when you do. He wants you to live forever in a state of happiness, but He feels (for whatever reason) that you need to choose this happiness for yourself.

- Hell is not a punishment. It doesn't contain fire or anything like that. It's simply the state of not being one with God. It's what happens when you die without being close to God (i.e. having sin in your soul). God doesn't "send" you there, just like he doesn't "send" you to Heaven. You get there yourself, of your own accord.

- You CAN be saved after going to Hell. Hell is temporary. On Judgement day souls will be judged to determine whether they can be one with God ("be saved"). A soul in Hell that had somehow found God between death and judgement day would be saved.

The basic idea is that God doesn't choose to interfere in your determination of whether or not to be saved. The intended state of a person's soul is to be without sin, and if you are in that state when the world ends then you will return to God ("Heaven"). If you are not in that state, then you can't be one with God because you have chosen to set yourself apart from Him ("Hell").

So, if I understand correctly, hell becomes eternal on Judgment Day? Or, once judgment day arrives, if you haven't become one with God then God just wipes your soul from existence? Makes more sense than most Christianity.

my belief is slightly more involved

1 there is heaven. this is where the angels live. and the future gods will live. no i only believe in one god. he will always be the only god for me.


2 there is a lower kingdom. this is where Christ will rule. this is also the earth. most people will go here.

3 there is a third kingdom. this is where the so called evil people go. this is the realm of the holy ghost. according to what i have read in our scriptures(not the bible), Christ said that if you saw this city. you would kill yourself to get there. of course if you killed yourself this is where you would end up.

4 there is outer darkness. this is where the devil and his demons and anyone who has totally disclaimed god as god. not the agnostics and people who don't believe in god. but people like Hitler, Stalin, Saddam. these eventually dissolve(i am using this word for want of a better one) back into the universe. because they will be cut off completely from gods love.

I pretty much agree with everything here, though I would use different words. I would say that you never go to "hell" if you don't want you. Basically, when you die, your soul moves out of the realm of time, and you simply choose, then and there, "Live with God, or without God?". And it's as simple as that. All your past sins on Earth are meaningless, provided you realize that they were wrong. God forgives all transgressions against him by those who ask.



I don't mean this in a derogatory way, but, wtf? Where'd you pick up this theology?

The last couple of posts have been reasonable, and somewhat more 'logical' in some respects.

If Hell is not a place of punishment, but a place that is not with God, then to me, that sounds quite nice. After all, it's not different to my life now. Yet, the problem comes when the ideas of Christianity are being taught as " Do this and you burn, don't do it, be rewarded " etc.
Faith is being spread largely through the carrot and the stick method.
I trained my Dog in much the same way.. she went to the toilet in the house, i'd punish her, she went outside, or asked to go out, she got rewarded. She hasn't dirtied my house in 8 years or so.

Simple analogy, but it's accurate I believe.

I've said in another post before, but Richard Dawkins book was a real eye opener to me, I was atheist before, but after reading it, I do everything to push all faiths away.
I live in Wales, and we were the most religious nation on earth a century ago, now we are the most anti religious on the planet. Their are a number of reasons for this, but my point is that I'm not unique in Wales. However, we still have clear signs of faith. My University was governed by the Dicoese of Saint Davids, and as such, it was classed as a Christian instution. However, it never interfered with a students lifestyle, be they one night stands, homosexuality, Muslim, Jewish, Hindi students etc.

In the grad ceremony, it was expected that everyone be blessed by the bishop.. I asked not to be, my friend asked after me, and out of 15 archaeology students, only 1 choose to be blessed. By my estimate, out of 150 students, maybe 25 or so took the blessing. I felt sorry for the Bishop, until I considered that he thinks all those not getting the blessing will suffer later on.

My moral choices are not made to gain a reward, or because some greater power expects it of me, but because it is right. My morals are not judeo Christian, any more than democracy and fair play is a sign of Being British.. their traits common to many people. Most if not all of these morals exist in other faiths... though stonign people to death for petty crimes, could only be inflicted by a religious nut.

Somone else said befor that the devil tries to hide Gods existance, but that is not the devils agenda, he want's everyone to know God exists but only in such a way that he can manipulate everyone to turn against God.

God himself meanwhile is actually hiding from being scientifically proven to exist. So even if you did come up with a way to proove God exists, he would simple step left so you find nothing. because God only wants to be found by faith.

What have you got against God?

In my opinion, those who fear God are those who do not yet know him.



If you are referring to "The God Delusion", I will comment that I am currently reading that on e-book; it's interesting, but it doesn't seem like he's being really insightful so far, he's just bringing together every anti-religion argument I've seen, and added some ranting.



That's the way it should be.

Eastern Orthodoxy does not have a set belief on what happens after Judgement Day for those not with God. Maybe it's the same as before judgement day. Maybe it's non-existence. Maybe it's something else entirely. Who knows?



The only things that can be scientifically proven are laws of cause and effect. After all, that's what the scientific method is all about. Thus, if God is eternal (and I believe that if He exists then He must be), then God lies outside the realm of science. Good luck proving anything about Him. =^) It's not that He's explicitly hiding, it's just that science by its very nature has nothing to say about Him.

i think it was christ but it might have been moses. who said that evil cannot exist in the presence of god.


this is my belief but in the simpsons. flanders will not make to heaven any more than homer. becouse he does what he does with the idea of gaining reward.

my belief is you should do good for good. not for reward of going to heaven.

i am lds

Please, Be Clear, very very clear - My comment is not (once again - "is not") directed at the individual who offered this little gem, I have heard it intoned many times.

To me it exemplifies the arrogance evident in many parts of the ruling hierarchy of many Christian Faiths. It shouts loud and clear that we the masses should not worry our pretty little heads over mere detail, we should follow the example of those more knowledgeable and who have the gift of understanding handed down from He who we love yaddie yadda. The incomplete explanation - holes and all - is there so you can be guided along a complex road ..... that we the chosen ones will aid you with.

Not with this pretty little head you wont.

This is not the Middle Ages, in general people have more common sense than that. I am a flexible individual, I will always make my mind up on the balance of evidence, a gut feeling based on facts presented, opinions offered, theories expanded upon, etc. Not be "guided" by some self seeking claptrap that offers no additional opinion or views other than to say it doesn’t matter because we will show you the way anyway. I am supremely glad that these individuals do not occupy the position of Judges in our Courts of Law.

Despite my obvious disagreement in the existence of a Supreme Deity, I strongly believe in the way of life offered by many Faiths, they do provide a framework for what I believe to be a decent balanced way of living. But that’s as far as it goes, and as long as the obvious holes are evident in the higher Theological explanations, then I will remain a non believer in a Supreme Deity. No amount of papering over the cracks with supposition, myths and theories will ever make me change my mind - and it is a very open mind, despite many not liking its conclusion - the latter is their problem not mine.

If individuals need a Faith as a belief, a more intense way of life, a mental prop, whatever, that’s fine, more power to their elbow - whatever gives individuals peace of mind and inner strength is for the most part a good thing. I will fight - and have done - for the right of individuals to take up whatever belief they wish, whatever gives them that inner peace. I will also fight those who seem to insist on "converting" me for my own salvation etc. I have slammed the front door on the foot of many a Jehovah’s Witness representative (after politely listening to their pitch for a few minutes) because they refused to remove it from the doorway.

The "For the Masses" version no longer works, this is not the uneducated Middle Ages. The refusal of the various Faiths' ruling hierarchies to understand that development in their "flocks" is the root cause of the severe decline in the number of practicing Christians.

The theory is wonderful, the prospect enticing, but the explanation and logic offered is inadequate to the point of not providing the - evidence, justification - call it what you will - that the theory is indeed reality. If the offered explanation fits what an individual wants to hear, and gives them strength to live a mortal life without fear, great, but not everyone wants or needs that prop just because someone says its there.

We all have our standards, qualities by which we judge things, they are different from individual to individual, at present those "obvious holes" they speak of are still holes to me, and until someone fills them in a way I can believe and accept, this is one pretty little head that wont be follow the "True Way".

Regards
Zy

i think ms. garrison put it best:

Ms. Garrison: In the beginning, we were all fish. Okay? Swimming around in the water. And then one day a couple of fish had a retard baby, and the retard baby was different, so it got to live. So Retard Fish goes on to make more retard babies, and then one day, a retard baby fish crawled out of the ocean with its...
[she waves her left hand limply]

Ms. Garrison: ...mutant fish hands... and it had butt sex with a squirrel or something and made this.
[she points to a prehistoric mammal rodent]

Ms. Garrison: Retard frog-sqirrel, and then *that* had a retard baby which was a... monkey-fish-frog... And then this monkey-fish-frog had butt sex with that monkey, and that monkey had a mutant retard baby that screwed another monkey... and that made you!
[she faces the class, with the new girl among them looking around]

Ms. Garrison: So there you go! You're the retarded offspring of five monkeys having butt sex with a fish-squirrel! Congratulations!

to get to heaven just follow jesus example...........

Take Cover - Incoming  

Regards
Zy 

and qualify by being nailed to a cross for a few days, ensure your last moments on Earth are in excruitiating agony, and inform passers by that I am doing it for them.

A kind of flippant response I agree, but am equally sure you will understand where I am coming from.

Regards
Zy

Christ died for our sins

but the most important thing he did was be resurrected

today he would have been given the needle, the cross was just a tool

I'm sorry, but is it any wonder that I cant take this seriously....

Why I continue to search - fruitlessly - in such discussions amongst - what in all other circumstances - are sane logical individuals.

The year is 2007, not 1307, competition for the most esoteric and profound sounding statement does not cut it with "The Masses" any more. It worked in 1307 because there was automatic faith in semi or fully educated individuals, particularly if they aided others in other ways.

In 2007 people understand the pitfalls of taking for granted what others say in such important matters. They want facts, evidence, anything that substantiates the claims. The only thing that is ever offered is more profound statements, and even more unlikely escoteric theories.

Regards
Zy

the cross was the form of exacution that the romans used. today we use the needle in most states

it was the semi or fully educated individuals that hung him on the cross

I maybe a non believer in a Supreme Deity, but dont assume I do not know the basics, or even many of the more involved theories and beliefs. None of the statements made, or similar ones I have been offered in other circumstances address the central issue for someone who is genuinely interested in discovering what is real, and what is a comforting Myth. The latter is just as valid as the former for some people if it gives them inner peace, not a problem,

I am the former, not the latter, so I need more than statements based on the assumption that he actually existed. The latter is easy, anyone can frame a Religion or creed and yell "this is the true one dummy". Mankind's history is littered with Faiths and beliefs based on everything imaginable, and those believers would scoff in an instant at the basis of Christianity, no way would you ever shift their belief. Always exceptions of course, but holds true of 99% of people who are devout believers in ...... whatever.

When I stare at indisputable evidence of photographs. live film, and statements from NASA space walkers that have been there and seen that the world really is round by direct observation - you are going to be pretty hard pressed to get me to believe the world is flat, no matter what people wrote in books found in dusty caves originating 2000 years ago that the world is in fact flat.

I have always found that Religion is the only field of human experience where uniquely the burden of proof is placed on showing the fact that something DIDNT happen, not on showing that it DID happen. Its utterly illogical, albeit convienient to a believer. Its this central point that is conveniently ignored by a devout christian/muslim/hindu (whichever - insert to suit your Faith).

The picture gets even muddier when placed alongside the sad fact that many individuals treat Christianity and the Church as a Social vehicle to be nurtured and fed for reasons beyond Faith. Catholics have a delightful phrase "non practicing Catholic", in many cases genuinely said of course in that they genuinely follow the overall Cathlic creed, but not necessarily in all its detail. Fine, no problem with that, regretably many mean they do not believe in it any longer, but are afraid to say so.

Amidst all this whirl of claim, counter claim, philosphy, even at times self grandisement, the non believer will raise his hand and ask "what additional information is available that will help me discern fact from fiction that does not in itself depend on the assumnption of the existence of a Supreme Deity".

I have never received a sensible reply, and until I do, I will remain a passionate believer in the proffered lifestyle and values, and will continue hold others views with respect by never saying they are wrong as I cant prove the latter.

Regards
Zy

I understand that your comments were not directed at me, so rest assured that I don't take any personal offense.

I don't believe that the basic version of Christianity is intentionally taught for unscrupulous purposes. I'd like nothing better than to have everyone - every single person - understand all the subtle complexities of Christian theology. But the reality is that most people just don't care very much about philosophical or theological details.

As an example, consider evolution. Many (most?) people believe in evolution in some form or another. However, most people have an extremely simplistic notion of evolution (i.e. random mutation leads to physical differences that give advantages, they are passed on through natural selection, etc.). This version of evolution is easily seen to be incomplete. How did complex mechanisms, like the eye, develop? How would a single genetic variation become dominant so quickly, before it is randomly eliminated?

The "real" theory of evolution, as understood by the elite few experts in the subject, has a lot more to it. I know a few people who have studied genetics and computational biology, and the story of evolution is far, far more involved. It has a lot to do with details of genetics, which illustrate how large changes can occur and become dominant very quickly (I'm no expert, so I won't attempt to say more on the subject). Theory of the atom? Same thing. Theory of the Big Bang? Same thing. There are popular culture versions of all big scientific theories, and they're all pretty bogus.

Does this mean that the scientific community is intentionally spreading lies to perpetuate myths and undermine the spread of religion? pfft, no. It's just that all the details cannot be communicated effectively. How would you teach them in school? Not to mention the fact that very few people care. People don't want to understand all the complexities, they just want a simple model of reality that they can apply to their everyday world. Those few who actually want more information are free to get it, there is no conspiracy to hide anything.

Christianity is the same way. All the details are out there for those who are interested.