MarcusCardiff MarcusCardiff

God gave us thought

God gave us thought

I am an athiest but I ask a question of God

God gave us thought and Intelligence.
God wanted us to think and improve our knowledge,
God has faith in his creation.

We will forever increase our understanding.
we will eventually know all there is to know.
It is the nature of intellect to ever increase knowledge.
then this is inevitable

So man will become Gods?, know all that it is possible to know,
Be omnipotent, eventually?

Is this true or is God playing a practical joke?

Has God put in limits to our learning.

Does god play tricks?

Or are we truly smart and does God need a holiday.

Marcus
154,930 views 199 replies
Reply #126 Top
hydrogen and oxygen don't explode if exposed to a flame.

hydrogen and oxygen weren't used as the rocket fuel that got us to the moon.

sodium doesn't react badly in water.

cloride isn't a posion

and ice doesn't float
Reply #127 Top
danielost,
what does this have to do with the argument?

I can dribble too. but I'm off out for a few, so I am sure I'll talk more sense whan im pissed.

Marcus.
Reply #128 Top
danielost,
what does this have to do with the argument?


which argument
Reply #129 Top

No i just have no belief.
If some people
need to make a fire out of my words then, don't blame me.
I just stated my position and belief.

Fight your own religious wars, lol


Marcus


Heh, sorry, I guess "incendiary" was an inappropriate term. I meant only that absolute statements regarding what is and is not fiction will evoke passionate responses, not that you were intentionally stirring anything up.

My response was to illustrate that "God does not exist" cannot be taken as fact, even by an atheist such as myself, since it depends entirely on how one defines God.


The creationist theory makes this world at aged not more than 6000 yrs,


To be fair, this is "young earth" creationism, which isn't widely believed outside of North America iirc. The majority of creationists agree with the scientifically accepted age of the Earth and Universe.

Reply #130 Top
for proof of god

i again turn to water, salt, and ice

water is made of hydrogen and oxygen which is an explosive.

salt is sodium and cloride sodium explodes, burns in water. cloride is a posion.

both of these are needed by all/most life on the planet

ice is the only solid that floats in it's liquid form. Except maybe dry ice. but i have never seen the solid form of dry ice. what we use is the liquid form of CO2.


Danielost, not to be rude, but please please please PLEASE read the quote from Augustine I put in reply #117. Really. Please. He was a great ancient thinker, he was a father of Christian thought, he was much smarter than either of us, and he's asking you to stop making these arguments.
Reply #131 Top
5- To Millertime who said ..."The truth should come out from yourself, once you have thought deeply on whatever matters you are concerned with."... I have to respectfully disagree. If everyone followed their own personal truths (which unfortunetaly too often happens)... well, I'll let you think about that a little longer, I'm not really sure it deserves to much attention.


Forgive me, I have a tendency to use unclear language. I don't think you got my point. Allow me to clarify with an example.

'John Doe believes that stealing is wrong. He believes this because the Bible says stealing is wrong.'

John doesn't really (or at least, shouldn't really) believe this just because a book says so. He should believe this because it is apparent that stealing breaks down the bonds of trust in human society (or whatever reason), and (to use the right words) he agrees with the Bible. To summarize, the Bible (and any other text) can only proclaim moral law, they often don't provide the logical justification for it, and we as humans have to figure out and understand that part ourselves (or perhaps reject it on equally valid grounds). Does this make more sense?

ice is the only solid that floats in it's liquid form. Except maybe dry ice. but i have never seen the solid form of dry ice. what we use is the liquid form of CO2.


Actually, the liquid form of CO2 is very difficult to procure, much less utilize on Earth, the atmospheric pressure conditions aren't right for its formation at any temperature. And fyi dry ice sinks in water.

No i just have no belief.
If some people
need to make a fire out of my words then, don't blame me.
I just stated my position and belief.
(emphasis mine)

Is it just me or did you just contradict yourself?


While we're talking about the flood, I'd like to add some food for thought (and I have no sources or anything, this is just me). If we are trying to take a literal approach to the flood story, we would have to take it from the perspective of the author, who would have lived thousands of years ago in the Middle East. First, let me establish location. While in modern times, we understand that the world is a large sphere with 7 continents, back then they didn't know of the full extent of the world. Also, the word 'world' is probably only a rough translation (since it is an ancient language), so it could possibly (and probably) just mean something non-descriptive, like 'the land'. After the flood story, the Bible begins to tell of Abraham. It says that he initially lived in a town called Ur. Now there are many town called Ur, but they are all located around Mesopotamia. Assuming that he is descended from people on the ark, it makes sense that the people moved radially outwards from the ark's "landing place", so Noah and his ark would not have been far from the same area. So, with this in mind, by 'the world', they were probably only referring to the Middle East, particularly the region where modern day Iraq is. Now, is there a possibility for a biblical "world-wide flood", one which would prevent existence on the ground? Certainly. This particular area is at a very low altitude, around 1-50 meters above sea level, and more importantly, it is surrounded by two large rivers, the Tigris and the Euphrates. When the story is told people often get the idea of an ocean, miles deep, just forming over the globe. But if the only criterion is that the flood would wipe out existence on the ground, it would only have to be 2 or 3 feet deep at minimum, that would have been sufficient to destroy all their buildings and wipe out their crops. The overflowing of the Tigris and the Euphrates could easily have provided this level of destruction, and possibly much, much more. So with all this in mind, it isn't too far-fetched to think that a small portion of Mesopotamia flooded, and that a man built a boat for his family and someone made a story about it afterwards.
Reply #132 Top
Danielost, not to be rude, but please please please PLEASE read the quote from Augustine I put in reply #117. Really. Please. He was a great ancient thinker, he was a father of Christian thought, he was much smarter than either of us, and he's asking you to stop making these arguments.




i am supposed to listen to some pope

when i don't believe the Catholic church is a Christian church.

the Catholics are the church isn't
Reply #133 Top
Danielost, not to be rude, but please please please PLEASE read the quote from Augustine I put in reply #117. Really. Please. He was a great ancient thinker, he was a father of Christian thought, he was much smarter than either of us, and he's asking you to stop making these arguments.


perhaps. i wonder what augustine would have said about the age of the earth had he lived to see today's scientific theories; the opinion he formed in the life he did live was in accord with danielost's creationist view, however much he might disapprove of erroneous reasoning.

Let us, then, omit the conjectures of men who know not what they say, when they speak of the nature and origin of the human race. For some hold the same opinion regarding men that they hold regarding the world itself, that they have always been... They are deceived, too, by those highly mendacious documents which profess to give the history of many thousand years, though, reckoning by the sacred writings, we find that not 6000 years have yet passed.


– Of the Falseness of the History Which Allots Many Thousand Years to the World’s Past, The City of God, Book 12: Chapt. 10 (quoted in the wikipedia article on Augustine of Hippo).
Reply #134 Top
two men disagree with how life begins

one is a ditch digger

one is a teacher

which one is wrong.
Reply #135 Top
augustine


would not have known about rocket fuel and may not have known what salt was made of
Reply #136 Top
Think how far mankind has come by himself -- morally -- in the past 2,000 or more years -- not one inch. I've never met one human who was even close to perfect, much less God. "The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was making the world believe he does not exist" (The Usual Suspects).I was an angnostic for 25 years then a confirmed atheist for 15 years, and a born-again Christian for 4 years. Believe me, God does exist. Just look around. You think all this (the total of existence) came from nothing? Even I don't have that much faith. Hope you find what you're looking for, but you won't find it in Man ... that's a guarantee From a former Randian (as in Ayn)


I think mankind in general has come further along morally. We used to enslave African Americans. Hard core supposedly God fearing Baptist Christians actaully believed it was ok to crack a wip upon an African American's back and lynch and hang bad slaves!!!! Back in the 1600s, people in their evil and utter stupidity thought they needed to burn "witches" who might have had a simple seizure disorder (oh those seizures are the mark of the DEVIL!!!!!! BURN BURN BURN!!!!!!!) Its too bad EEGs weren't around to confirm disorders in brain nuerons instead of being damned by the devil.

The problem is, the news reports on the less than 1% of us who truly deserved to be locked in the deepest, darkest dungeon and have the key thrown away! How many people would watch the news if instead of murder, rape, pillage, weather, and sports, the news talked about the thousands and millions of people who did good. The thousands and millions who payed their taxes and walked the dog, and helped the community etc. Boring!! It is the truth, though. I think society is better now than it was back then. I am tired of hearing how our society is more evil now. Crap, go back to the 1930s, when people killed over BEER. Stupid, evil mobsters KILLED FOR F$#$#ING BOOZE!! Is the world still evil, absoultely. However, I think we are progressing on the whole.

Of course non of that even holds a candle to the pure insanity and PURE EVIL that is GOD. GOD who will consign us to eternity of HELL, something far worse than the abosulte most sadisitic, evil, Saw movie seriel killer could ever do to us. God's apetite for seeing his creations tortured in sheer agony amazes me (if Christianity is indeed true). He must like to beat off to the ETERNAL SCREMS of US AGNOIZING UNBELIEVERS AS OUR SKIN CONTINUOSLY BURNS AND REGENERATES, BURNS AND REGENERATES!!!!!

I sware one of these days, I want to make a movie about hell. It will be so disgusting and unpleasant, that everyone would throw up in the middle of the movie!! I mean thousands of souls burning in agony, babies screaming and crying because they died before they even had the functional neuron capacity to "believe in Christ". (Show me in the Bible, the supreme text more vaulable than the most rigourous of scientific studies according to Christians where is says babies are automatically saved, or people who are severally mentally retarded are automatically saved!!) (has any Christian tried to save a Down Syndrome person???) This movie would make Saw 3 and Hostel 2 look like F###$ING CARE BEARS!!!!! After seeing this crap for like an hour and a half, a Ned Flanders Christian complete with conservative pants and sweater comes on the screen begging you to accept Christ!

Now, if I were to make said movie, I wonder how many Christians would object? Why would they object? I am just spreading their view!

If the Christians are right, than God is PURE EVIL!!!!!!!!!!!

Why wouldn't God destroy Satin after the Garden of Eden Incident? Why wait until over 6,000 years to then punish Satin in Hell after he drags billions of souls with him??

Why did God create me if my destiny was eternal hellfire! F#$$#k you God!!!!!!!!!!!! I wish you had just not even created me you evil bastard (assumming Christianity is correct - just trying to make a point God - I don't really think you are evil and I think you sending to people to Hell is the single biggest lie ever told throughout human history!) because I don't want to go to Hell. If the circumstances of my life cause me to go to Hell, then I would have much rather never been created and remained in "oblivion".
Reply #138 Top

i am supposed to listen to some pope

when i don't believe the Catholic church is a Christian church.

the Catholics are the church isn't


Augustine was before the reformation; even before the schism. What he was saying doesn't really have to do with different denominations, but different levels of fundamentalism. He's basically warning that the faithful should not to be so fundamental in their beliefs that they wander away from reason.

As a side note, why don't you believe that the Catholic church is Christian?


would not have known about rocket fuel and may not have known what salt was made of


Of course not. That's the point. Early Christian philosophers understood that as people learn more about their environment they will discover things that contradict the Bible. But many of them proactively said that that's okay, since it's not the point of the Bible.


perhaps. i wonder what augustine would have said about the age of the earth had he lived to see today's scientific theories; the opinion he formed in the life he did live was in accord with danielost's creationist view, however much he might disapprove of erroneous reasoning.


Very true. In the same way, I believe that matter is made of atoms, but I'd accept other theories if I were shown evidence to the contrary. Augustine was just arguing about the nature of the world using the knowledge available at the time. For example, iirc, in the quote you gave he was responding to druidic beliefs, which were not based on any scientific reasoning. He iterated many times that it's a mistake to be too steadfast in the face of conflicting evidence or logic. So I think that if he were around today he'd accept many of the findings of modern science.

It's a moot point, of course, since we can't ask him. =^) It just always struck me how progressive the early Christian thinkers were in these matters.
Reply #139 Top
i am supposed to listen to some pope
when i don't believe the Catholic church is a Christian church.
the Catholics are the church isn't


two men disagree with how life begins
one is a ditch digger
one is a teacher
which one is wrong.


There is really nothing you must be.
And there is nothing you must do.
There is really nothing you must have.
And there is nothing you must know.
There is really nothing you must become.

However, it helps to understand that fire burns,
and when it rains, the earth gets wet.
Reply #140 Top
I don't know if I would call the OP's post a poem or a prayer or speculation.... Either way, the thing is filled with presumptions that are certainly questionable, some of which have not been addressed.

God has faith in his creation. Really? This notion comes from where?

We will forever increase our understanding.
we will eventually know all there is to know.
We will? How do you know this?

So man will become Gods?, know all that it is possible to know,
Be omnipotent, eventually?
Knowledge is power? Francis Bacon thought so, and many people blindly quote him and follow along with that idea, but it is up to debate. Personally, I think knowledge is ONE component of power. Knowing everything does not necessarily lead to being all-powerful. Does knowing everything mean that we can survive in outerspace without spacesuits, for instance? Or some other gear?

Is this true or is God playing a practical joke? This is a HUGE assumption, that either A: the OP's remarks are true; or else B: God is playing a joke...maybe the remarks are just wrong? How's that for an option?

I am a Christian, but rather unorthodox in much of my theology. I am always interested in questions about the existence and nature of God from the perspective of atheists because I think that, at times, they have some interesting ideas on the subject. The OP's ideas, I am sorry to say, are not well conceived at all, and rest on major suppositions (some of which have no basis in any major monotheistic religion).

Quoting scripture passages to people who place no stock in the Bible, is a waste of time in trying to define God. To these people, the Bible is at best a mythologized history book, at worst a total invention with some small references to actual historical events or places.

This is the main problem with trying to talk about God with atheists. They have no reference upon which they can place any descriptions of God, and thus must engage in pure speculation based on what is usually scant theologocal knowledge, knowledge which they do not even believe holds any truth.

Anyway, those are my issues with the OP's remarks, except to also wonder...IF the OP does not believe in God, then to whom is he speaking?

Reply #141 Top
Stanley Tarrant is a perfect example of what I was saying.

For instance:

I think mankind in general has come further along morally. We used to enslave African Americans.

Slavery still exists in the world, you know. The USA and/or Europe does not comprise the whole planet. I guess Hitler, Pol Pot, Stalin, Mao Tse Tung and their many many followers are a sign of improved global morality? Many people would argue that abortion is murder, yet it is legal in many places. But I suppose you could dismiss that with "abortion is not murder" and hey presto! discussion over! But that would be kind of like a tyranny of ideas...is that moral? And there are many many other "moral slips" as well.

Of course none of that even holds a candle to the pure insanity and PURE EVIL that is GOD. GOD who will consign us to eternity of HELL....


God does not send people to hell, we send ourselves there by virtue of our deeds. This is a good example of people talking about matters about which they know little, and it happens far too often and on many subjects. Read Romans 6:23, where Paul writes that the "wages of sin is death...." Or the references that what we reap in life is what we sow. In other words, our condemnation is not God's doing, but a consequence of our actions.

But as usual, I expect this to fall on deaf ears, as it is written in Isaiah: "You will keep on hearing, but will not understand; you will keep on seeing but will not perceive...." (from Isaiah chapter 6)
Reply #142 Top
Very true. In the same way, I believe that matter is made of atoms, but I'd accept other theories if I were shown evidence to the contrary. Augustine was just arguing about the nature of the world using the knowledge available at the time. For example, iirc, in the quote you gave he was responding to druidic beliefs, which were not based on any scientific reasoning. He iterated many times that it's a mistake to be too steadfast in the face of conflicting evidence or logic. So I think that if he were around today he'd accept many of the findings of modern science.


i think you're probably correct, at least anything related to historical facts. btw, the quote was in response to Greek and Egyption cosmological histories.

thought some of these quotes attributed to this Buddha would be appropriate to the discussion:

"In a controversy the instant we feel anger we have already ceased striving for the truth, and have begun striving for ourselves."

"To understand everything is to forgive everything."

"Better than a thousand hollow words, is one word that brings peace."

"Three things cannot be long hidden: the sun, the moon, and the truth."

"What is the appropriate behavior for a man or a woman in the midst of this world, where each person is clinging to his piece of debris? What's the proper salutation between people as they pass each other in this flood?"

"Work out your own salvation. Do not depend on others."

"The whole secret of existence is to have no fear. Never fear what will become of you, depend on no one. Only the moment you reject all help are you freed."

"Let yourself be open and life will be easier. A spoon of salt in a glass of water makes the water undrinkable. A spoon of salt in a lake is almost unnoticed."

"Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned."
Reply #143 Top
As a side note, why don't you believe that the Catholic church is Christian?


becouse they pray to mary and not christ

Augustine was before the reformation; even before the schism.


my religoen is not part of either of these

God does not send people to hell, we send ourselves there by virtue of our deeds. This is a good example of people talking about matters about which they know little, and it happens far too often and on many subjects. Read Romans 6:23, where Paul writes that the "wages of sin is death...." Or the references that what we reap in life is what we sow. In other words, our condemnation is not God's doing, but a consequence of our actions.


i agree with you here

Reply #144 Top
There is really nothing you must be.
And there is nothing you must do.
There is really nothing you must have.
And there is nothing you must know.
There is really nothing you must become.

However, it helps to understand that fire burns,
and when it rains, the earth gets wet.


Don't forget that rock beats scissors.
Scissors beats paper.
Paper beats rock.
Armour beats Mass Drivers.

Therefore God exists. Prove me wrong, I dare you all!!1!!eleven!!!
Reply #145 Top
The whole secret of existence is to have no fear. Never fear what will become of you, depend on no one. Only the moment you reject all help are you freed."


i believe the whole secret of existence is to improve yourself
Reply #146 Top

The greatest trick that Man has ever pulled is making others believe in God

Or the greatest trick that man has pulled is to trick people into believing that the greatest trick ever pulled was making others believe in God.

Another in the top ten of great tricks would be to trick people in believing nature is it's own creator; thus abiogenesis.
Reply #147 Top
in the hebrew langage

nature and god have the same number value.


you see every letter in hebrew is also a number. and the words nature and god add up to the same number. i don't know what that number is
Reply #148 Top
Stanley Tarrant is a perfect example of what I was saying.

For instance:

I think mankind in general has come further along morally. We used to enslave African Americans.

Slavery still exists in the world, you know. The USA and/or Europe does not comprise the whole planet. I guess Hitler, Pol Pot, Stalin, Mao Tse Tung and their many many followers are a sign of improved global morality? Many people would argue that abortion is murder, yet it is legal in many places. But I suppose you could dismiss that with "abortion is not murder" and hey presto! discussion over! But that would be kind of like a tyranny of ideas...is that moral? And there are many many other "moral slips" as well.

Of course none of that even holds a candle to the pure insanity and PURE EVIL that is GOD. GOD who will consign us to eternity of HELL....


God does not send people to hell, we send ourselves there by virtue of our deeds. This is a good example of people talking about matters about which they know little, and it happens far too often and on many subjects. Read Romans 6:23, where Paul writes that the "wages of sin is death...." Or the references that what we reap in life is what we sow. In other words, our condemnation is not God's doing, but a consequence of our actions.

But as usual, I expect this to fall on deaf ears, as it is written in Isaiah: "You will keep on hearing, but will not understand; you will keep on seeing but will not perceive...." (from Isaiah chapter 6)


Explain to me exactly how I send myself to Hell??? Because God gave me a brain and reason?? Doesn't God somehow transport our souls to Hell??

Anyway, do babies that die go to Hell?? Aborted fetuses??? Show me in the Bible where it says babies are spared from Hell and go straight to Heaven. God damn it!!! I wish my mom had plunged a dagger straight through my heart when I was 2 months old!! If we truly believe this nonsense that babies go straight to Heaven when they die, then we should lead a campaign to slaughter all infants. Why EVEN TAKE A CHANCE that your son or daughter will end up in Hell???

WHY EVEN TAKE A CHANCE?????????? I just do not understand how God is not PURE EVIL for even allowing us to be eternally damned??? Why can't we become "saved" after we die? Why is it too late to escape Hell once you are in Hell?? How can anyone believe this nonsense? How?????????? It just boggles my mind!!!
Reply #149 Top
And who demands that the wages of sin is death??? God!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Right????????????


The wages of my lifetime of sin is apparently eternity of Hell. Ok, lets follow God's example.

I am babysitting your children. Your children mouth off to me, and fail to beg fogiveness through my dead great-great grandfather's name. So, I tie them to a chair and proceed to chainsaw off their arms and legs. IMAGINE FOR A SECOND that this ACTUALLY HAPPEND. Now consider that getting your arms chain-sawed off and dieing from blood loss, while utterly beyond horror, DOESN"T EVEN COME CLOSE to eternal damanation, esp. if eternal damanation is being constantly on fire. Are you guys ready to worship me??? I am following God's example, right? I mean, heck, getting your arms chainsawed off is alot better than eternal damnation, right?

So, again why is the wages of sin "eternity in Hell". That is just like saying, the wages of "mouthing off" is getting your arms chain-sawed off. I mean, shoot, lets go get all the gays and lesbians who supposedly "sin" every moment of their life, and throw gasoline on them and burn them alive for thier "wickedness". Which is worse? burning someone alive or being gay?

Who is more evil? God or us?
Reply #150 Top
Ok, here is another idea: If God knows that my eternal destiny is eternal damnation (1,000 years ago, God knew then whether I was going to Heaven or Hell, correct?) why would he even create me? I mean if my destiny is eternal Hell, then certainly I wish I had never been born. God is very, very evil just for creating me if I am just going to Hell forever. Its like me pushing a button that sends someone to Hell (perhaps not right away, but eventually). If I could push a button to send you to eternal Hell, that would be infinetely more evil than pushing a button and lauching every single nuclear missle and completely obliterating the planet.