Strategy Rant

Enough already

from GalCiv2 Forums
Hello all, stopping in for my weekly visit. I'm a bit annoyed right now, and I wanted to rant for a bit on strategy choices. If that is not your thing, I suggest you move on to a more friendly topic, there are plenty of great discussions going on here.

The crux of my ire revolves around reactions regarding the strategy I described where you use all factories or all labs on all of your planets to maximize your production per turn. I'm sorry many of you see it as an exploit. If Mr. Wardell decides to change the way focus works, so be it, its not like I need it to win. I'm more than a little tired of any time someone decides to maximize a game mechanic everyone cries "exploit". When stock markets provided a morale bonus in DL, building worlds with all stock markets and no morale buildings was not an exploit, it was just taking full advantage of the game balance as existed at that time.

Yes I play games with a mix of factories and labs, I even often do so. However, even then my approach might not be considered "typical", its still not an upset to game balance. When I build factory worlds and lab worlds within a game, I usually still put 100% in my sliders. Just, when I need tech, I put 100% into research. When I want buildings I put 100% into social. When I want ships I put 100% into mililtary, and make a turn by turn decision as to which of those three I need the most in any turn. And this also works really really well.

It also wasn't my idea. About six months ago I got in a discussion with nullspace, tetleytea and Livonya about strategy, and one of them mentioned that they liked to always keep their sliders at 100% and just choose one of the three (I forget which one of them). I tried it and it worked. Then, I had a few games where for almost all of the endgame I never went back to putting anything into research, and I thought, well, why build research worlds at all, they just sit there sucking up upkeep for 75% of my game doing nothing. And from there, I eventually developed my all labs or all manu strategy.

And I don't care who invented it first and when. Perhaps Purge or Magnumaniac figured it out before I did, I didn't realize I was in a competition with them to see who could develop the strategy first. If they did it earlier, good for them. I wasn't trying to say I was the ultimate player or anything. The strategy may well have been in common use long before I stumbled upon it. I don't know when they started using it, but I like and respect both of those players, and I wasn't trying to one-up anyone when I posted on this strategy.

If you take away focus, you will still do better by putting 100% into one of the sliders. That is a result of a very basic game mechanic, not one that is going to be fixed by a minor tweak. If that fact offends you or your sense of fairness, I'm sorry. The math doesn't lie, this is just how this game works. Can I win by splitting the sliders? Sure, and I've done it plenty of times. I've played entire games never moving them off of 33/33/34 from turn one just to see if I could do it. If you have more fun splitting the sliders, or you feel that somehow it is more "fair", go for it.

Also, I don't see this as cheating even a little bit. For one, the AI is free to use the same strategy. Putting it in the same catagory as scouting a map and then reloading to turn one or using Ctrl-N until you get a precursor whatever on your home world doesn't even make sense to me. Trying to get the most out of your sliders is something every player in a game state can do on any turn. The AI can never reload until it gets a great homeworld, or scout the map before it starts playing, making both of those true "cheats" or "exploits".

And I'm starting to get more than a little offended by people who seem to suggest that I'm a poor player who just has a handful of cheats I use to beat the game. 1. I never claimed to be a great player, 2. I play the way I like, you should do the same, 3. I haven't even ever come close to taking the time to describe every strategy I use on these boards, 4. I'm sorry but I really don't feel like I'm cheating, and 5. there is NO strategy I need or rely on in every game that I play. Why does it matter to anyone the approach I take to the game? This is a SINGLE PLAYER GAME.

I'm sorry in part for my tone. And thank you so much to everyone who gave me positive feedback after I spent time illustrating some of my strategies. I'm tired, cranky, and overworked. Its also my birthday today, so I'm now older and no wiser. The older I get, the more reminders of the passage of time put me in a bad mood. Plus, I haven't gotten my Gal Civ 2 fix in a while, so I'm probably tweaking (ha ha, sigh).

I of course love this game, and have a great amount of respect for many of the people on here. My invective is aimed at no one in particular, rather it is a sort of critical mass of criticism I have recieved via email and on these boards about the strategy I described in my Altarian Rebellion AAR.

Play how you like. That strategy is hardly the only way that I play. There are most efficient paths to victory, but this game has many many ways you can play. You can always artifically put more restrictions on yourself to make the game harder (this game I will build no wonders, no starbases, whatever). If you find that after reading a few of my strategies now the game is always "too easy" or "ruined" or "always the same" I have two suggestions. Use your own creativity and the many sandbox option modes to try and add variety, or play a different game.

I miss being able to chat. Hope the rest of you are having a better day. I can't wait to be able to return to a more normal life.

Take care,
Wyndstar
strategies
20,986 views 48 replies
Reply #1 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Hi!
I'm tired, cranky, and overworked.

Real Life strikes again.

Its also my birthday today.

Congratulations! Enjoy your life and leave crankines and other bad stuff for us geezers.

The older I get, the more reminders of the passage of time put me in a bad mood.

Bad mood on your birthday? The only time I was in bad mood for my birthday was when I was 18 and officialy adult: "Damn, no more fooling around!" Not that I stopped. Remember: you're as old as you feel.

And I'm starting to get more than a little offended by people who seem to suggest that I'm a poor player who just has a handful of cheats I use to beat the game.

If envy would burn, we'd need no oil.

BTW nice to hear from you!

BR, Iztok
Reply #2 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
First things first - Happy Birthday! I wish it was going better for you.

I'm really glad that you posted the AAR. Your all labs strat with the flip in midgame was the one I used to win my first game on suicidal. That strat was actually chosen for me when I saw the 100% research tile on my homeworld. Could have gone either way.

My second suicidal win was with the all factories strat. Some modifications to that, but we all have our ways of playing.

I don't think either one is a cheat. Math is math. Even when there are several ways of ending up at the same conclusion, it's the math that gets you there in the end.

If someone wants to call something outside of their normal thought process a "cheat", so be it. How much can such an opinion count?

You're a good player among good players. There's no "best" out there. I hope you can get back to having fun soon.


WindowBlinds - Free yourself of the default settings, customize your desktop.
Reply #3 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I'm more than a little tired of any time someone decides to maximize a game mechanic everyone cries "exploit".


I don't think it's so much a matter of being an exploit as the game having bad mechanics. Why is there a set of sliders if ultimately they're not really "needed" to play the game? Why are there different building types if they're not really "needed" in a certain perspective? Etc etc. The fact is there's plenty of stuff that's not well thought out in the game, and that leads to "exploits". When you reach a point where there seem to be more "exploits" than "normal" gameplay (as compared to convencional games), it's only natural that people start wondering.

If you take away focus, you will still do better by putting 100% into one of the sliders. That is a result of a very basic game mechanic, not one that is going to be fixed by a minor tweak.


Shouldn't that tell you something?

If that fact offends you or your sense of fairness, I'm sorry. The math doesn't lie, this is just how this game works.


Which is the whole point I guess. We're not supposed to be playing Calculator Emulator, we're supposed to be playing a space strategy game. Calculations are always a factor in a game like this, and that's good. But senseless mechanics shouldn't be.

For one, the AI is free to use the same strategy.


The AI will only use it if it's programmed to do so. I doubt it was Frogboy's intention for the game to be played like this, so why should he make the AI use this? I guess he expects players to play how he envisioned the game to be played.

The AI can never reload until it gets a great homeworld, or scout the map before it starts playing, making both of those true "cheats" or "exploits".


I wouldn't go there. Frogboy used that kind of argument and look at how that turned out... Cheating is one thing, using an exploit because the game rules *allow* it is a completely different one.

There are most efficient paths to victory, but this game has many many ways you can play.


You can make yourself play in different ways, yes. But that's true for most games.

You can always artifically put more restrictions on yourself to make the game harder


The operative word there being artificially. Naturally sounds so much better.

I didn't send any emails or anything else   , I'm just giving my opinion.
Reply #4 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
People were sending you emails over this?

Get a life, people!


I've enjoyed seeing these different strategies. I haven't really used sliders very wisely or logically yet, only a few times a game do I adjust them if I think I need some immediate thing. But I think I'll try messing around with them soon. I just don't want my game turning into a giant schlep! For some, though, the math, even micromanagement, is half the fun.


Oh, and Happy Birthday!


Reply #5 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
if to be efficent is evil, i am the borg... We are The Borg, lower your shields and surrender your ships. Your biological and technological distinctiveness will be added to our own. Your culture will adapt to service us. Resistance Is Futile.
Reply #6 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Master Wyndstar,

I respect and admire folks who can see possibilities and have a first rate strategic mind, and you clearly fall into this category. This is even more true for folks such as yourself who are generous enough spend your valuable time to share your findings in clear, exquisitely reasoned and readable prose.

I’m not sure why people are complaining to you, though. As far as I’m concerned if folks don’t like the All Lab/All Manu strategy - or any other strategy for that matter - they are free to use another. Please don’t take it (too) personally. Whenever a rant is directed at you keep in mind that you have MANY more admirers than detractors.

Happy B-day, by the way. I suggest lots of high quality chocolate, or maybe - if you are so inclined - a beverage-of-choice.

Sorry about the workload. Nothing I can do about that!

Hydro
Reply #7 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Hey fellow - Peace and Happiness to you on your Birthday!   

Just wanted to thank you for your gifts of thought to the community - I read a lot of them and your opinion and creativeness is well admired by myself, whether or not I agree with you - it is always well thought out and well documented by actual gameplay examples, not just theoretical ramblings.

I use some of the stuff you talk about to enhance the fun I have playing the game - and some of it I don't use to see if the other way can work as well in a given game setup - kudos, Wyndstar. You rock!  
Reply #8 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
No problems from me Wyndstar. I love your strats. It makes me laugh when people try to impose rules to restrict strategy. I wonder what kind of rules they impose upon themselves in the real world. Keep posting like a champ and don't let the little fish get to you.

Reply #9 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

The crux of my ire revolves around reactions regarding the strategy I described where you use all factories or all labs on all of your planets to maximize your production per turn. I'm sorry many of you see it as an exploit.

If one defines an exploit as playing the game in a way not intended (playing the system rather than the game, if you see what I mean) they have a good argument. Quite why they complain about it I don't know, unless you're going around forcing them to play the same way at gunpoint?

Why does it matter to anyone the approach I take to the game? This is a SINGLE PLAYER GAME.

Until you get into the Metaverse.

People seem to get far too competetive/protective over their metaverse results for some reason. Players such as yourself who do the number crunching and work out the optimal strategies will always come under such fire from those who aren't that way inclined simply because they think you somehow have an advantage over themselves. Due to the game score being calculated by efficiency those willing to do the math will always outperform those more interested in other areas. Unfortunately, I don't think anyone's come up with a way to score the amount of fun a player is having, a far more important factor I think.

If you find that after reading a few of my strategies now the game is always "too easy" or "ruined" or "always the same" I have two suggestions.

You missed suggestion three - try exercising self discipline and not playing in a manner you're not going to enjoy. Or are you really enforcing your tactics on people at gunpoint?!?

Reply #10 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Happy Birthday Wyndstar, I enjoyed your AAR and have tried a few of your strategies out and have no grief with your style of play. Try not to take any criticism too seriously, you deserve credit for thinking outside the box and being inventive with your playstyle.
Reply #11 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I'm seeing plenty of support here and not one rebuf, so either their scared to comment or are to few in number??

Personally, i think it takes allot of work to optimise your game to such an extent and no one can take that away from you.
Reply #12 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I don't know if this is related to the flak you got, but I really don't understand why some people have a problem with the idea of research going forward without any labs. That's silly. Was Newton in a lab when the apple dropped on his head? Ideas progress regardless of people in white coats working on them full time.

FWIW, I really appreciate the strategies and ideas that you've posted (and I'm pretty sure you're not sitting in a laboratory with a white coat, either). Even if the ideas came out of discussions with other people, you deserve credit for posting them in a clear and concise manner, and for your desire to actually help people. I think this game has a great community for that very reason: most of the people here seem to have a strong interest in seeing other players succeed rather than fail and you, sir, are emblematic of that notion.

Happy Birthday, and I look forward to more of your posts.
Reply #13 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Wyndstar, I have enjoyed your posts and have learned from you. I like the way you think. You noticed something that seemed contrary to the common thought, and you used it to your advantage. I don't know if I ever would have figured that one out, and I admire you for it.

The only ones who can judge your conduct are God and yourself, and I'm pretty sure God's ok with it.

Happy birthday bro.
Reply #14 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I really don't understand why some people have a problem with the idea of research going forward without any labs. That's silly. Was Newton in a lab when the apple dropped on his head?


Was he in a factory?   
This is the perfect example of a nonsensical example. He didn't *research* gravity under the tree. You should think hard about the issue before posting nonsense. It's not productive to post the first thing that comes to your mind. There's a thread about this issue, perhaps you could read it?
Reply #15 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
To whom may be concerned..
this stratergy would easily be solveable by doing something that was similarly done in civilization series. your ability to manage the percentage of your income into Research, Military and Social would depend upon your goverment. For instance we could say the first goverment is inefficent and you can only put up to a maximum of 60% your production into each of the three options, as there are four goverments you could have the second having a restriction of 75% the third 90% and the last 100%.
I would personally rather not have this done as this is a perfectly good use of game mechanics and it still has it disadvantages, I.e the game wasnt meant for your economy to be so efficent so your will not only be in the negative income, but i found using this stratergy on a Huge map dipped me into a defecit of -800+ bc a turn, however this is probably my own fault as i overexpanded and this was my first time using this stratergy with the 100% research. Fortunately this was fixed, by me being Terran and i could sell dust for gold .

Going for research strat, means that you have little military spending, and that all you have left you normally spend on ships so you are not attacked, therefore a person who is playing the game with 33:34:33 would be in a better position as they have much more money, and if they spent all resources on constructors and built many eco starbases the difference in economy would be made up? Do not forget by selling all this tech to the AI, even if it is laser, it strengthens them as they trade with each other and it means tech they dont have to research.

So this is not the ultimate Stratergy as it still has disadvantages, even if they at abeit few.
Reply #16 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I really don't understand why some people have a problem with the idea of research going forward without any labs. That's silly. Was Newton in a lab when the apple dropped on his head?


Was he in a factory?   
This is the perfect example of a nonsensical example. He didn't *research* gravity under the tree. You should think hard about the issue before posting nonsense. It's not productive to post the first thing that comes to your mind. There's a thread about this issue, perhaps you could read it?


Unnecessary response. Let's not ruin a good thread with a flame war.

I agree with you Wyndstar, and I appreciate your posts.

Some people seem to get caught to up in the "realism" of the game. Yes, this is a game, with rules made by the developer. For goodness sake, the game is set on a 2D map with movement distance rules that would drive Pythagoras crazy, but I don't hear anyone saying that moving diagonally is an exploit. If you have an aesthetic or game design problem with a strategy, recommend a change in the rules to the developers.

I think there should be some sort of relatively small, but escalating marginal penalty for setting a slider higher than 50%, similar to the relationship between tax rate and morale penalty.

Reply #17 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Was he in a factory?
This is the perfect example of a nonsensical example. He didn't *research* gravity under the tree. You should think hard about the issue before posting nonsense. It's not productive to post the first thing that comes to your mind. There's a thread about this issue, perhaps you could read it?


Was that hostility really necessary, ToS?

In any case, Newton could very well have been in a factory, in fact. Perhaps, rather than an apple, a large socket wrench could have fallen on his head. Then, he would not only learn about gravity but also how to fill in worker's compensation forms.

Anyway, my point is that the presence of labs is not 100% essential for research, no more than the presence of factories is 100% essential for there to be production. I do not see this as being unrealistic, though, again, it may not be relevant to Wyndstar's point.
Reply #18 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Happy Birthday Belatedly!

I really don't get any part of the criticism for figuring out strategic ways of beating the game. There are certain things I don't build, even though they are offered as things to build...is that an exploit too? Choosing a planet design that works for you is half the fun of a game like this.

Telling people how you set up your planets is offering a personal insight. I really don't understand how you could offer an argument in a strategy game forum that such a design is an exploit or indicative of a weak game. I can't personally think of any game I didn't play where ultimately I came up with a solution that resulted in me, the human figuring out a way to bear a computer program.

Sorry to hear you are personally getting abuse about your postings. I very much enjoy them and seek them out. Your AAR was clearly top notch. I learned so very much from it. I hope all the negativism won't deter you from continuing to contribute. If your job has to stand in the way of it...you should consider other options, but so be it.

Good luck with the trial!
Reply #19 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Unnecessary response.


To an unnecessary comment.

but I don't hear anyone saying that moving diagonally is an exploit.


Diagonally? That's the way to move, according to Pythagoras. I don't get the point. What is wrong is precisely NOT moving diagonally. Remember we're talking warp displacement here.
And perhaps you haven't read the threads about distances and the map representation?

If you have an aesthetic or game design problem with a strategy, recommend a change in the rules to the developers.


Hmm, and isn't that what has been done around here in these forums?! That's one of the goals of there being forums for the game.

I think there should be some sort of relatively small, but escalating marginal penalty for setting a slider higher than 50%, similar to the relationship between tax rate and morale penalty.


If you really want to add another unintuitive rule.



Was that hostility really necessary, ToS?


No real hostility, but read it as you will. I just replied to an absurd comment, and explained why.

Perhaps, rather than an apple, a large socket wrench could have fallen on his head.


Then he would probably be dead, and gravity would have to wait for someone else to lay under a tree    

Anyway, my point is that the presence of labs is not 100% essential for research, no more than the presence of factories is 100% essential for there to be production.


So howcome Embassies, for instance, don't contribute to research? Actually, it should be in diplomacy buildings that you should "research" the government forms, and trade techs, and related stuff. Can farms be used to build ships? Why not?! See the point? Each building has its purpose, and it should be restricted to that purpose. Else nothing makes sense. This should be crystal clear I guess, but apparently I'm wrong. Now, my comment about using the brain before posting originates from precisely this. People have the habit of not questioning their assumptions and end up defending the most absurd "logic". That's all I meant above, not trying to offend anyone or start a flame war.
Reply #20 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

So howcome Embassies, for instance, don't contribute to research? Actually, it should be in diplomacy buildings that you should "research" the government forms, and trade techs, and related stuff.

How many Ambassadors do you know who've come up with entirely new lines of government?

Each building has its purpose, and it should be restricted to that purpose. Else nothing makes sense

The problem with talking about a fantasy background is anything can be made to make sense. As long as the logic within the game is internally consistent (and bear in mind much of the mechanisms are abstractions based upon that logic, further opening a gap). If a major component of my race's ships is biological, farm grown matter then why shouldn't my farms contribute to building those ships? Or how about my ships requiring on-board hydroponics only producable at farms in order to sustain the crew?
The real argument is whether you feel the game mechanism itself is correct. At the end of the day that boils down to opinion, you can find any number of 'real' or 'fantasy' explanations to back up any particular mechanism you care to propose.


I think there should be some sort of relatively small, but escalating marginal penalty for setting a slider higher than 50%, similar to the relationship between tax rate and morale penalty.

I quite like Sword of the Star's system - increasing the research slider in that game allocates more money to research and allows it to run faster. However, the higher the amount of cash going in, the more likely that a project will be delayed due to complications (all your scientists using the money to buy fast cars and fast women as 'expenses' for example).

How about random events which only occur if the slider is above or below a certain amount? For example, low investment (slider setting) on research leads to a brain drain throughout your empire as the more scientifically minded citizens look for opportunities elsewhere, leading to a penalty in research (or you could have a leading scientist quit a project to work elsewhere, wiping out all research accumulated towards the current project). Or high investment (slider) in industry leads to corruption and embezzlement in the business sector, inflicting an economic penalty.
Reply #21 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
How many Ambassadors do you know who've come up with entirely new lines of government?


And how many labcoats do YOU know that did just that?   
In terms of proximity, which one do you think makes more sense? Notice why I gave that example.

The problem with talking about a fantasy background is anything can be made to make sense.


This has been discussed in various threads ad nauseum. In this thread it was simply about some buildings doing various things - and then I asked why just some, not all. There's a clear distinction, some buildings do only one thing, others do more than one.

If a major component of my race's ships is biological, farm grown matter then why shouldn't my farms contribute to building those ships?


Just for the sake of argument, then biological components should be built in bio labs, not farms. Farms can't really be producing food *and* components at the same time, can they?

Or how about my ships requiring on-board hydroponics only producable at farms in order to sustain the crew?


Factories produce farms, so it's only logical that factories should produce hydroponics modules, right? What is grown in those modules, that's pretty much the same as in farms. You don't need farms to build other farms.
Reply #22 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
From Anch and ToS

"How many Ambassadors do you know who've come up with entirely new lines of government?


And how many labcoats do YOU know that did just that?
In terms of proximity, which one do you think makes more sense? Notice why I gave that example."



I can think of one that fits both. Benjamin Franklin. He was both a scientist/labcoat and a statesmen/ambassadors.

LET THE FLAME WAR CONTINUE!!!
Reply #24 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Every planet has an Initial Colony or Civilization Capital that guarantees you have 12 or 24 base research available even if your planet has no labs. This seems adequate to account for Benjamin Franklins, etc.
Reply #25 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

In terms of proximity, which one do you think makes more sense? Notice why I gave that example.

It doesn't really matter, since the entire concept of research is abstracted. Technically, how comes the same factories can produce both interstellar vessels and sports stadiums? How comes the same lab can research high energy weapons, medicine and recreation?
I'd rather have it abstracted to generic production/research/morale pools than micromanage my buildings to the extent of building a seperate lab for each area of research. I'm quite happy with buildings adding to multiple pools too, after all lab based R&D is usually aimed at improving production, and plenty of technological advances are made as part of production lines.
The only problem I have is when a building specialised in one type of production is just as efficient when producing an off-type resource. It's counter intuitive if a laboratory can out produce a factory (although given the nature of the game, I'd let it slip if we're talking a basic factory vs a higher tier lab). It would be fine if you could build all labs and still ramp out production, as long as the total amount of production created remains less than what would be achieved by adopting the same strategy with factories.

Just for the sake of argument, then biological components should be built in bio labs, not farms. Farms can't really be producing food *and* components at the same time, can they?

Depends, are my ships edible?

Factories produce farms, so it's only logical that factories should produce hydroponics modules, right? What is grown in those modules, that's pretty much the same as in farms. You don't need farms to build other farms.

You'd still need the farms to produce the plants and seeds for the module though. No good sending the ships off with empty hydroponic modules.