New player impressions about the tech tree

from GalCiv2 Forums
Well technically I've had the game for a while at least I bought GC2 about a year ago when it first came out based on the rave reviews at gamespot; however I was expecting something like Moo2 and was a little disappointed with the game. I missed the tactical combat, being able to control all aspects of battle (as opposed to the automatic battle sequences on GC2), I enjoyed watching the opponents sub-systems break down as I directly inflicted damage to structural components taking out vital systems until his engines wouldn't allow for his escape and then I would board with my marines to acquire the ship for myself. I also missed the technology system of Moo2 with the not only incremental improvements in technology but also the special abilities you got with certain new weapons (ie graviton beam inflicts structural damage on top of armour damage, neutron beam kills marines, black hole generator kills units in 2 turns, time warp facilitator is a little overpowered... (although as GC2 has no tactical combat these aren't really applicable).

Now a year later I thought I would give it another try with Dark Avatar (although I had to buy the gold edition as the expansion wasn't available at the store). I know that all you guys out there must be finding quite a bit of stuff in this game worth liking to keep playing it so I tried to approach the game as more like a Civilization in space...which seems to be working so far....I'm still new to the game as I haven't played it much buy I love to figure out the mechanics of the game so I was working out taxes last night and figured out that each 1 billion citizens makes 7.75BC unmodified (woohoo I like it when numbers make sense), though I still have much to work out which brings me to my main complaint: The Tech tree

Why does the tech tree not explain what new improvements do, why hasn't this changed since GC2? (I would of thought it would of bothered a few people). I know I'm whining but heck, it would be nice to know what an Xeno lab is before researching it (Ok I have actually gotten further then this and I know it improves the basic research building from 6 to 8 but how would I know this if I didn't research it?)...same goes for weapons, laser II doesn't help me much with whether it is worth researching or not. Also pre-requisites; I admit I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed, but It isn't easy to figure out how to move on to the next ship design (I just read it now and it isn't quite as bad as what I thought (I am still learning) but it still doesn't describe the new hull designs at all).

Another thing that would be nice to implement is to apply racial abilities to the planetary summary window...just so you know how much of an effect that +45% research is having or that new planetary improvement tech which gives you +10 to social, military & research.

I'm trying hard to get into this game but it seems I have to research online a lot of game play features to figure out what they do...the tutorials only scratch the surface. I think if there was one thing I would most like to see improved would be to add mouse-over help on EVERYTHING; go crazy if we mouse over social tell me a breakdown of how I'm getting that amount of research eg 12 mp base + 20% bonus then break it down further 10% from Planetary improvements, 10% xeno industrial theory for a total of 14.4 mp. Apply this to research as well so it isn't a mystery until you've played the game a few times (besides research should be fun, not a "what does this do, oh well lets research it anyway"!).

If I'm the only one bothered by this so be it, then don't let me spoil your fun, but if any of you have any similar concerns or perhaps the developers would like to share about the reason for the absence of more Technology info (perhaps it's too difficult to integrate it into the engine...I'm no programmer so I'm pretty ignorant), then I would be keen on hearing opinions
27,923 views 84 replies
Reply #1 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Yea some of the explanations for things are a bit lacking. As somone who knows the game very well, i still get confused by the tech tree when trading with the AI. For example, if the AI has posotronic torpedoes and photon torpedoes, i have to remember which is better?!? and i have to remember because stardock didn't bother giving technologies a tech level number (like in Alpha Centauri)

and i imagine that would be a real prick in DA since you cannot revisit an AI after leaving the diplomacy screen to check the technology tree.
Reply #2 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Yes Bagar79,

The poor, or lack of description for tech tree improvements was a magor issue for me when I was first learning the game. ( I am sure that they loose much business because of it).In fact, it still is, although to a lesser amount. I have had the patience to learn that it just does not matter since you have to master each improvement of a branch in order to move on to more powerfull weapons or features. Each branch of the tech tree could in fact be represented by a bar graph, with each segment of the graph costing a different amount. The weapon or defence types for example mean nothing since the AI only considers the attact force during combat, no other weapon/defence attributes are taken into account.

Better tech tree descriptions would be most helpfull when trying to decide which improvement branch to select next. What are the consequences or advantages of researching lasers IV now instead of Shields II, or should I research miniaturization? If I do, what actual difference would it make to my ships? If I go with enhanced logistics, what effect will it actually have?

I must admit that I have submitted many other suggestions that I felt were more pressing than this issue, but , I hope that your post will remind the programmers that this should be looked at soon. After all, it is not a complicated fix. But it would do more to help retain customers than many other mods that have been requested. A good ROI.
Sins of a Solar Empire II
Reply #3 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Yes, the game does need a good encyclopedia. Something like what Civ 3 had would do quite nicely.

Unfortunately, the game is so good that most players already have figured most of this stuff out simply by playing the game so much. I'm afraid that if you don't know something, it would be best to either experiment, or ask questions on this forums.
Reply #4 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
and i imagine that would be a real prick in DA since you cannot revisit an AI after leaving the diplomacy screen to check the technology tree.


as long as you haven't traded anything yet you can come and go all you want to
Reply #5 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
as long as you haven't traded anything yet you can come and go all you want to


Ah thats good then!
Reply #6 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I don't recall having too hard of a time figuring everything out. The minimalist information is perhaps a little annoying at first, but after going through the game a few times (or 20 times), you should have an easy time remembering everything. After figuring it all out, it's actually nice to not have all that unnessisary info cluttering up all the screens (i don't need a detailed description to know that an invention matrix is better than a research academy). Also, i don't see why it's nessisary to know all the under-the-hood mechanics, after all it's not like the game cheats...
Reply #7 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
The minimalist information is perhaps a little annoying at first, but after going through the game a few times (or 20 times), you should have an easy time remembering everything.


Or you may never find somthing out... such as that the secret police structure prevents defections! I only know that because i heard it from kyro, you won't see it mentioned in the game.
Reply #8 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Dragonstring:

"...(i don't need a detailed description to know that an invention matrix is better than a research academy). Also, i don't see why it's nessisary to know all the under-the-hood mechanics, after all it's not like the game cheats... "

How do you know it doesn't cheat if you don't know the under-the-hood mechanics?

Well unfortunately I'm all about understanding the under-the-hood mechanics... Now I've got a question for any of you out there; I'm not sure if this is a bug but it is gameplay mechanics related...it seems like there is a break in the game (I can't tell for sure as there is no documentation (going back to my original point) of the break down of numbers so I wrote it down in notepad; this is a game I'm playing with the Altarians:

Abilities: 10% Military
20% Social
55% Research

Spending: 100%


Planet Altaria
Population: 8.04b (12.00 b)

Industry: 31 mp
-Military: 33%
-Social: 33%

Research: 72 tp (34%)

Calculated Military Production(Building ship):
31 mp x 0.33 = 10.23mp

Apply 20% bonus (Moon + Ability)
10.23mp x 1.20 = 12.28mp


Calculated Social Production(Building building):
31 mp x 0.33 = 10.23mp

Apply 30% bonus(Moon + Ability):
10.23mp x 1.30 = 13.3mp


Calculated Research:
72tp x 0.34 = 24.48tp

Apply 55% Ability bonus
24.48tp x 1.55 = 37.94tp

Calc Mil/soc/res = 12.28/13.3/37.94
Actual Mil/Soc/Res = 12/13/37

So far so good, it looks like the game rounds down, even at 37.94


Planet Cordelia III
Population 0.10b (6.00b)

Industry: 12mp
-Military: 33%
-Social: 33%

Research: 10tp

Calculated Military Production(Not Building ship - no starport):
12mp x 0.33 = 3.96mp

Apply 20% bonus (Moon + Ability)
3.96 x 1.20 = 4.75mp (However as there is nothing made this is the above value)


Calculated Social Production(Building Building):
12mp x 0.33 = 3.96mp

Apply 30% bonus(Moon + Ability):
3.96 x 1.3 = 5.15mp


Calculated Research
10tp x 0.34 = 3.4tp

Apply 55% Ability bonus
3.4tp x 1.55 = 5.27tp

Calc Mil/soc/res = 3.96/5.15/5.27
Actual Mil/soc/res = 3/3/4

Military is ok, but Social and research production is definitely off, anyone know what's causing this? (this is another reason why I think it is important to have a breakdown of abilities bonuses to figure out how you get a given production)

Now; this second planet had no facilities...guess what happened after I bought a factory and xeno research facility:

Planet Cordelia III after adding factory and research facility
Population 0.10b (6.00b)

Industry: 16mp
-Military: 33%
-Social: 33%

Research: 18tp

Calculated Military Production(Not Building ship - no starport):
16mp x 0.33 = 5.28mp

Apply 20% bonus (Moon + Ability)
5.28 x 1.20 = 6.336 (However as there is nothing made the above value applies)


Calculated Social Production(Building Building):
16mp x 0.33 = 5.28mp

Apply 30% bonus(Moon + Ability):
5.28 x 1.3 = 6.86mp


Calculated Research
18tp x 0.34 = 6.12tp

Apply 55% Ability bonus
6.12tp x 1.55 = 9.49tp

Calc Mil/soc/res = 5.28/6.86/9.49
Actual Mil/soc/res = 5/6/9

Correct values!, looks like I found a bug, if you don't have a factory and/or research you will not get the racial abilities (although the value of 4 for research seems a bit odd) on a new planet until you do build a factory & research...now if no one was curious about the game mechanics this could undermine development early on in the game

Let me know if I'm incorrect here; perhaps I'm getting a little excited about finding a bug
Reply #9 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Hey, if you haven't researched it yet, how should you be able to know exactly what it does? It makes perfect sense to me.

If you play the game enough, you'll remember certain things. But even after playing quite a bit I'm still not sure exactly what each tech will give. That's why it's research. It's going into the future of technology.



Reply #10 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Hey, if you haven't researched it yet, how should you be able to know exactly what it does? It makes perfect sense to me.

If you play the game enough, you'll remember certain things. But even after playing quite a bit I'm still not sure exactly what each tech will give. That's why it's research. It's going into the future of technology.


Scientist: "I propose we research an xeno lab"
Benevolent Dictator: "Sounds good what does it do"
Scientist: "Not sure yet, we need to research it first"
Benevolent Dictator: "Hmm so how did you come up with the research name "xeno lab"?"
Scientist: "Well we used the "research grant name generator" device"
Benevolent Dictator: "I see...so what exactly am I investing billions of credits in?"
Scientist: "We need to research it first, to know what it does"
Benevolent Dictator: "How about a clue..say weapon of ultimate L337 destruction?"
Scientist: "we need to research the "research description generator""
Benevolent Dictator: "What is the Research description generator?"
Scientist: "Sorry we need to research it first before we can tell you"
Benevolent Dictator: "Oh.."

Master of Orion 2 did pretty well letting you know the tech's up front
Reply #11 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Baqar79, have you heard of the 'Galactopedia'? It is a small utility program that allows you more info on anything in the tech tree. I have found it to be quite useful. You can find it here:

WWW Link

Also, the GalCiv Wiki is a great source of info for much of the math of the game; it is here: WWW Link

Good gaming.
Reply #12 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

Baqar79, have you heard of the 'Galactopedia'? It is a small utility program that allows you more info on anything in the tech tree. I have found it to be quite useful. You can find it here:

WWW Link

Also, the GalCiv Wiki is a great source of info for much of the math of the game; it is here: WWW Link

Good gaming.


Thanks Mistralok for the links, that galactopedia pretty much has everything that I would like to see in the research tree..at least now I know that II, III, IV's is all about miniaturization. I like the tech pictures as well, that would also be a nice addition to the tech tree.

As for the Wiki the tech tree doesn't actually say much...but I'll have a look to see about the game mechanics

I did actually complete a game by winning with culture (beginner, but considering I didn't really know what to do randomly research area's I think might help), I transported 1000 soldiers and wiped out the dreadlords as they built in one of my star systems; odd's weren't in my favour low 20's vs low 80's. I pulled it off though as they had only 80 troops...quite a nice planet I might add
Reply #13 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
@OP

Yes your not the only one who is awestruck by the suckyness of tech tree descriptions. There has been discussions about the issue before but nothing has been done by SD, oh well.

My add to the secrets of the tech tree:

New Engine tech = speed +10 .. <-- WTF does that mean, it took me months to realize that the +10 actually adds 1 movement point for every ship no matter what engines they have. Talk about vague description.

edit:

I would call a patch that adds these descriptions to the tech tree a major feature patch. Hmm right, but they should have been in game from the beginning. Yes Iam bit cranky but Iam just blown away how this issue has not been fixed yet. Maybe we need another expansion pack for it.
Reply #14 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

@OP

Yes your not the only one who is awestruck by the suckyness of tech tree descriptions. There has been discussions about the issue before but nothing has been done by SD, oh well.

My add to the secrets of the tech tree:

New Engine tech = speed +10 .. <-- WTF does that mean, it took me months to realize that the +10 actually adds 1 movement point for every ship no matter what engines they have. Talk about vague description.

edit:

I would call a patch that adds these descriptions to the tech tree a major feature patch. Hmm right, but they should have been in game from the beginning. Yes I am bit cranky but Iam just blown away how this issue has not been fixed yet. Maybe we need another expansion pack for it.


Hmm, would of figured the speed+10 would be a 10% increase in speed regardless of the engine type...however I do recall seeing all my units increasing by 1 speed point after researching a tech that did that, I appreciate you clarifying that.

Actually this whole guessing game with the tech's & other details like any mouse-over details for figuring out infrastructure mechanics is IMHO quite a bad design choice from the developers and only helps to add to the learning curve of this game, it is after all why I put this game on the shelf for a year in the first place after not even completing a single game.

On a somewhat related note I checked out that galactic civ 2 wiki's Tax rate calcs, and they seem quite off from what I'm getting....I guess while you have a site that shows you some of the behind the scenes calculations, it still isn't up to date.

I guess in the end it is my rant and if this tech issue doesn't take from your gaming experience, I am genuinely happy that you take such pleasure in playing this game; if on the other hand it bothers you even a little it might be worth being a bit more vocal so that the developers might take notice (@SD Please don't be too offended by my posts; despite my negativity on some of these issues I think your ethics are second to no other game developer I know of: no cd required, no serial key (I have bought 2 copies mind you ) and excellent patch support).

I'm still interested to hear other people's and the developers side to this story if you wish to enlighten us
Reply #15 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
MHO - It's a great fun game put out by a small independent company if you care to take the time to learn it - and don't mind missing some of the frills Larger Companies will add to their products because they can afford to.

The Civ series has a Civlopedia, because they had the budget to put it in.

The Galactopedia was a work of luv by a fan - as is the Wiki a work of luv by many fans - they are pretty damn good for fan based add ons.

Want lots of bells and whistles? Maybe buying a game from a small independent is not something that you should do...

Myself, I'd rather continue to see them work on improving the aI, improving performance/fixing bugs, and adding better/newer game features than spend their limited resources on providing a built in Tech Tree encyclopedia and super detailed manuals. I'm sure the devs would love to do that if they could afford to...but I just don't think it's what the majority of the customer base wants them to prioritize ... and SD does listen to their customers.
Reply #16 from GalCiv2 Forums Top


Want lots of bells and whistles? Maybe buying a game from a small independent is not something that you should do...



Whoa there...who said anything about bells and whistles?, I'm not into meaningless gloss and polish in a game; after all Stars! (if you have played it) was a good game with very little in terms of graphic eye candy, but the depth of game play (and IMO excellent tutorial) helped it become popular. Poorly in-game documented research tree & game mechanics does not a bell or whistle make

I'm a big believer that a lot of what's wrong with current games (and for that matter software) is all the expensive unnecessary eye candy and gloss that is used to sell the "new games". The budgets are so high that none of the big publishers are willing to take any risks on game genre's that haven't really been time tested and so keep rehashing the same "FPS" with a new shiny coat of paint (how much has changed since wolfenstein 3D at the core mechanics, run around, pick up better weapons, shoot something?). Movie studio's use the same theory, make say 10% profit on yet another time proven Slasher movie, or potentially make or lose 100% on a well done sc-fi flick.

I think what I would like to see (This is just my own opinion) in a game like Galactic Civilization 2 is to document everything within the game as if it were to be built like a complex strategy board game...that is with no computer opponent to work out all the behind the scene's odds. Imagine trying to play the game with the tech descriptions the way it is currently implemented?, how would you know what they did?. What about calculating economics & Production and adding racial attributes?. I know my reasoning is flawed (ie this is not a board game ), but I love being able to figure out stuff in the game without having to alt-tab out of it; look at Moo2, right-click and you get info on just about anything.
Reply #17 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Small independant companies and big companies alike must focus on the rules of success. Packaging, documentation, marketing and support. When a small company is living hand to mouth, the documentation phase is almost always sacrificed with the good intention to get back to it one day. But other priorities usually take over. It'sa trap that eats up many companies.
Reply #18 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
MHO - It's a great fun game put out by a small independent company if you care to take the time to learn it - and don't mind missing some of the frills Larger Companies will add to their products because they can afford to.


My guess would be that large companies are deadly serious about their bottom line just as small companies are. They will only put in what is needed to sell their game and maintain a good reputation. So it is wise to look seriously at what succesful game companies are doing.

Reply #19 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

Let me first say that I agree with much of the comments here.

Let me emphasize a couple of things (my opinion)

1) It doesn't matter whether a game is made by a guy in his basement or some mega corporation. If they charge money for it, the value you should get should be in proportion to the money paid.  Hence if we charge $39.95 for a game, it should have the same quality as any other $39.95 game.

2) The text descriptions are a real weakness. It's one of those things that, in hindsight, I wish we had spent more time on.  They are what they are.  If someone else wants to put together a better set of descriptions, I'd be happy to insert them into an update, give credit and Stardock schwag to. We just don't have the budget internally to do much with them.

3) I do think we should get some props on the new manual in GalCiv II Gold. I mean, come on, that manual is pretty awesome I think compared to most game manuals.

 

Reply #20 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
3) I do think we should get some props on the new manual in GalCiv II Gold. I mean, come on, that manual is pretty awesome I think compared to most game manuals.


good work! and yes it is pretty damb hard to top the kind of game manuals put out by microsoft and a few others.

A good manual should leave you capable of playing a game without needing any outside help. That is how i came to be a member of this forum - resulting from the origilal galciv1 manual aaaahhhg. I am also a member of the Egosoft forum because of their crap x2/x3 manual.

I am not a member of any other forums due to adequate manuals for all my other games.
Reply #21 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Sorry - got the Expansion through SDC ....never have read any new manual...  

I guess being in the IT field for so long - I've gotten jaded and almost never RTFM. For any software, game, app, db, ....OS, anything.

I put it on a test lab box and play with it - I have found it is more time efficient for me to learn it this way - I can usually get a good basic feel for most software in about 30 to 40 minutes...and then spend several hours tring to break it so I can learn how it works. I find the online help menu to be indispensible, however - it is this I'll ref to when I am at a loss what to do.

2) The text descriptions are a real weakness. It's one of those things that, in hindsight, I wish we had spent more time on. They are what they are. If someone else wants to put together a better set of descriptions, I'd be happy to insert them into an update, give credit and Stardock schwag to. We just don't have the budget internally to do much with them.


Man Brad - last Summer I would have drooled to do #2 .... this summer I am swamped at work, have just bought a new house...but if someone out there wants to tackle this and can organize it - I'd be glad to try and proof a page or two a week as a member of a team...PM me.
Reply #22 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Hmm funny that a thing what your average gamer like me considers small and quite easy job, can actually be a real resource hog. Refering to the tech tree descriptions.

Well atleast SD has tons of good critique about GC2/DA, expecting great things about GC3
Reply #23 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Thanks Mistralok for the links


No problem. Glad to be of help.

I can understand how a 'numbers' type of player could get frustrated at first. The formulas used in the game can be quite complex, with many different variables involved. My best advice to you, if you have a specific question, is to do a search on the forums. Just about anything you can think of has been addressed in here at some point. If you can't find by yourself what you are looking for, then post a question. I can guarantee that you'll get an answer. There are some very clever people who play this game, who have spent many hours figuring out the hows and whys, and any of them would be glad to help.

You have (I hope) joined a great community. The folks here are smart, funny, helpful, and generally well-behaved. I think you'll like it here, and in time, will learn to love the complexity of the game. Welcome aboard.
Reply #24 from GalCiv2 Forums Top


2) The text descriptions are a real weakness. It's one of those things that, in hindsight, I wish we had spent more time on.  They are what they are.  If someone else wants to put together a better set of descriptions, I'd be happy to insert them into an update, give credit and Stardock schwag to. We just don't have the budget internally to do much with them.




Many thanks for your input; it helps to know what the developers think.

Mistralok's suggestion on trying the Galactopedia is worth a look (http://www.kynosarges.de/Galactopedia.html). It has all essential statistics for technologies included. Just adding the important numbers would be a significant improvement (In my opinion ). Below was taken from the Galactopedia:

Xeno Research
Improvement Xeno labs
-Cost 60
-Production 8 (research)
-Obsoletes Basic Lab

It's things like:

Xeno Research
IMPROVEMENT Xeno labs

which make research a bit disorientating; granted given time you would learn what all the improvements do, but it does increase the learning curve (You have to play a few games to see what all the techs do).



3) I do think we should get some props on the new manual in GalCiv II Gold. I mean, come on, that manual is pretty awesome I think compared to most game manuals.



I've got both the Original Galactic Civ 2 & Galactic Civ2 Gold 64 pages to 96 is quite a bit of extra content

I also think that you do offer better documentation then a lot of other game manuals out there, but I also think that game documentation is pretty poor with a lot of complex strategy titles out there. Medievel 2 Total war comes to mind and even having SEGA behind them you would think that they might invest a little more; a nice 150+ page manual in PDF format even if printing costs were not economical.

I believe that you pay for what you get and I know I'm probably alone in this but I like to pay more to get quality , that is money isn't the issue, quality is far more important to me. I know throwing money at a problem doesn't always solve it, but if you offered your game with documentation that allowed me to reprogram gal2 from scratch (ok...maybe a little less for IP reasons ), I would pay Tier 1 publisher rates or higher (as Tier 1's don't guarantee a good manual) for your game (hears the tumbleweeds blowing across the desert to reflect the overwhelming agreement of the forums
Reply #25 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Sorry - got the Expansion through SDC ....never have read any new manual...


If you want to, there's a pdf of it in the game's directory.