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AI cheating on first turn (buys more than one social improvement per planet) ?

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AI cheating on first turn (buys more than one social improvement per planet) ?

from GalCiv2 Forums
Hi there,

I am new to this game and encountered some very strange behaviour:

I started a new game on tough difficulty (as Krynn) and since I am currently overwhelmed with all the possible starting strategies I decided to "learn" from the AI by uncovering the galaxy with Ctrl-U and used my spy to, well, spy on the capitals of the other races.
What I found is that during the first turn (I actually never hit the "turn" button) the majority of AIs had 3 oder 4 social improvents already built (not queued !) on their home planet. Afaik one can only buy _one_ social improvement per turn.
So how is that possible ?
(I am playing with the latest DA client without any mods btw and repeated the test several times, always the same result)

Thx in advance.
78,226 views 192 replies
Reply #151 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
that's fine, you have any other problems then lets solve them right here right now.


hmmm well i could use a new job! well my current job only pays USD $13.00 per hour
Reply #152 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
damn that's low, have you considered a job in the dental industry? each client pays about $6000 just to get teeth straightened, i should know, i was a client (damn money sucking dentists).
Siege of Centauri
Reply #153 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Maybe you could even do something like give a bunch of minor races the tech for Hyperion Shrinker, save and reload a bunch of times, now the Shrinkers are all complete, time to invade.


I new this was exploitable .... hehehe
Reply #154 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
In case you haven't noticed:

---
+ TWEAK: Made a slight change to the code that starts the AI threads which may help with the AI seeming to get a free turn at the start of a new game or when loading a save game but as I didn't have time to fully investigate the bug, this may only address part of the problem.
---

Source: 1.6 Beta 5 Change Log

https://forums.galciv2.com/?forumid=421&aid=153501#1221518
Reply #155 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Hi!
+ TWEAK: Made a slight change to the code that starts the AI threads which may help with the AI seeming to get a free turn at the start of a new game or when loading a save game but as I didn't have time to fully investigate the bug, this may only address part of the problem.

Until AIs have to pay for their purchases, IMO this "free-purchase-at-reload" bug is a non-issue. IIRC in all my games where I allowed tech-trade, no AI had a significant amount of money to actually buy more than a couple of low-tech buildings. Amount od money they had was from 100-1000 BC in most cases, ususaly closer to 100 than to 1000.

BR, Iztok
Reply #156 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
damn that's low, have you considered a job in the dental industry? each client pays about $6000 just to get teeth straightened, i should know, i was a client (damn money sucking dentists).


Yuk! When i consider how desgusting it would be looking in peoples mouths all day.... yes i think they probably deserve the money!
Reply #157 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Yuk! When i consider how desgusting it would be looking in peoples mouths all day.... yes i think they probably deserve the money!


which is why im considering a job in teaching, mostly art but i might also teach maths or english.
Reply #158 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
which is why im considering a job in teaching, mostly art but i might also teach maths or english.


Teaching?? thats a scary thought! Children have a way of wearing you down over the years till there's no sign of any humanity left inside you. I cannot think of any job that would suck more than teaching.

I dunno, perhaps children are different in America? but when i was going to school, all children were interested in was how malicious they could be, and outdo the maliciousness of the next person. Teachers would quit, have days off with migrane headaches, it was basically hell, those teachers were working in hell!
Reply #159 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
At least now I have a clue how the AI even keeps up with me - LOL -
Reply #160 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
WOW WHAT AN INTERESTING THREAD. A really great and entertaining read however. Hell I did'nt even know about this so called bug. Sorry if the offends anybody. But it should not
Reply #161 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Upon reloading a game recently, I've had the AI contact me to issue a threat. They shouldn't be able to do that as its still "my turn". I guess that's related to the bug. They get another chance to conduct diplomacy.
Reply #162 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Upon reloading a game recently, I've had the AI contact me to issue a threat. They shouldn't be able to do that as its still "my turn". I guess that's related to the bug. They get another chance to conduct diplomacy.


i say... does it matter? what harm is a threat going to do you? they were going to issue it on their turn anyway.
Reply #163 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
This doesn't look significant enough to be worth the expenditure of resources it would require to fix it IMO. I'd much rather see new features or fixes to more substantial bugs.
Reply #164 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Upon reloading a game recently, I've had the AI contact me to issue a threat. They shouldn't be able to do that as its still "my turn". I guess that's related to the bug. They get another chance to conduct diplomacy.


i say... does it matter? what harm is a threat going to do you? they were going to issue it on their turn anyway.



LostHero, I think the issue is whether the AI would have an extra turn for any diplomacy whatsoever. Most importantly, that means tech trading. Secondly, that could mean that relations between you and the AI(s) could change extra quickly. I've noticed that when they want to go to war, even if they start out Friendly, they will decrease relations dramatically turn-by-turn until they declare war. If you watch this closely, you'll have a turn or two to prepare. But if what Evil Muppet theorizes is actually the case, relations could drop more quickly.

Now, I'm in no way saying that this is proven. In fact, the very fact that others haven't seen this makes me think that it is most likely not the case. That is, one more turn for diplomacy needs to be proven, not just that the AI can issue a threat at the start of YOUR turn after reload. Both Frogboy and CariElf have looked into this, as far as I know, and there's been no word as to an extra turn for diplomacy upon reload. What's become the accepted belief is that it's strictly related to planning and rush-buying.

Reply #165 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Hi!
That is, one more turn for diplomacy needs to be proven

It already is proven. Check reply #10. What I'm affraid is AIs also collect taxes each turn the game is loaded. Since it gets so many things, that's quite possible. I just don't know how to test that.

BR, Iztok
Reply #166 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Kryo and Frogboy, for as many CG II and DA games as I've played now, this issue doesn't bother me at all. Please spend your valuable time on the bigger issues (like the memory crash discussed in a different thread). The AI getting an extra structure or few is minor compared to game-ending crashes. And, I for one would love to see what you folks come up with for 1.7. You guys do great work.
Reply #167 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I just checked: tiny suicidal game, 9 AIs, cheats enabled. I revealed the map and checked homeworlds with my spy. A half of them had already 2 buildings BUILT, another half had 1 building built and another one in queue. Those with 2 finished buildings had the third building finished after I pressed the Turn button for the first time. To repeat again: they had 3 finished buildings besides starting Civ capital and Starport in the second turn.

I had to check another suspiction. I saved the game turn 2, and immediately loaded it gain. Guess what? When the turn was loading, I got the message that the Torians built manuf capital (that wasn't in the queue), and the Entertainment Network, that was in queue on their HW before saving, was BUILT! I saved the game again (still the second turn!), and loaded it. This time Iconians built the Manuf. capital, and most races had built the queued building.

So AI doesn't get just a free diplomacy turn after the game is loaded / started, they also get a free production turn. Every time! ...

BR, Iztok



Maybe I'm just obtuse, but I still don't see any evidence of an extra round of diplomacy here. No one before this reply (10) had mentioned free diplomacy, either. As far as I can see, you just assumed that it was the case, but your investigation doesn't seem to have been able to show that. I wonder if a debug would show it, if the AI had extra trades.

Either way, free diplomacy would probably not be nearly as big a deal as the free planning/rush-buying that we know the AI gets, and I'm not even much worried about that.

Reply #168 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

It already is proven. Check reply #10. What I'm affraid is AIs also collect taxes each turn the game is loaded. Since it gets so many things, that's quite possible. I just don't know how to test that.

Unlikely. I know it doesn't get extra tax collection because the "AI" doesn't do taxes. That's a game engine element. 

 

Reply #169 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Hi!
Unlikely. I know it doesn't get extra tax collection because the "AI" doesn't do taxes

Thank you. If they can't collect taxes, that IMO means the bug doesn't need to be fixed, since in my games AIs usually they don't have money to buy installations. So the advantage in mid game for them is minor.

BR, Iztok
Reply #170 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Hi!
free diplomacy. As far as I can see, you just assumed that it was the case

I didn't need to investigate. Brad already mentioned that on forums. I've also been contacted by AI many times at game load, and also get messages about other diplomatic events. But exactly the "free diplomacy" raised my suspiction about "free building build/purchase" at game load.

BR, Iztok
Reply #171 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Since when does a bug not need to be fixed? This premise by some is rediculous. All bugs should be fixed; usually before new features are added.

I, like many or even most customers, am one that loads often. I work and play in other areas too so I often will play a game of less than 10 turns a day. This bug affects those of us that play this way the most. Those of us that work and play in short sessions are the majority that often do not post either or mod games. This has been found in polls from web sites of other games as well.

I buy games frequently and tend to loyalty of series and companies that are of the better quality, like most customers do.

-Wade
Reply #172 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
HAHA just makes the game a little more challenging.
Reply #173 from GalCiv2 Forums Top


It already is proven. Check reply #10. What I'm affraid is AIs also collect taxes each turn the game is loaded. Since it gets so many things, that's quite possible. I just don't know how to test that.


Unlikely. I know it doesn't get extra tax collection because the "AI" doesn't do taxes. That's a game engine element. 


 



Easy enough to prove - save a turn 1 game and reload while observing AI progression via [ctrl][shft][Z] saving after each reload and monitoring tech/economy progress. If there is an engine bug then it should show up as the # of wks for cued econo or mil projects/research will then decrement.
Reply #174 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

Easy enough to prove - save a turn 1 game and reload while observing AI progression via [ctrl][shft][Z] saving after each reload and monitoring tech/economy progress. If there is an engine bug then it should show up as the # of wks for cued econo or mil projects/research will then decrement.
 

It is not an engine bug.  The AI is not getting extra taxes or extra production. 

Reply #175 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Since when does a bug not need to be fixed? This premise by some is rediculous.


I think most of us would probably argue that this isn't a "bug" at all, and the notion that the entire engine needs to be redesigned because of a design decision that results in a spectacularly minor AI benefit (which, at worst, very slightly counteracts the massive benefit the human player has in being able to save and load freely in the first place) is in fact what's ridiculous.