Spies are a pain in the back

You are not alone with your Espionage thinking. Many other think that the current system is way too simple and more "general" like espionage would have been better. Spies with missions like cause unrest, steal tech, sabotage "wonders" etc would been much better imho.

Aww, dont like a challenge? However, I do think they need to make a option to increase the security of your empire(ex. Opressometer from MOO3)

I've never really commented on the spy system used in DA since it didn't mean much to me. Never planned on using them and never have used them... until I played a few games with the Mega-Events turned on. The event that places spies all over the place really, really sucks bad. My first time, being new to the event, I sat back and wondered WTF!?! Once I realized what was going on and how to 'fix' it I was off to espionage land. Let me tell you, this event is a pure joke. Wasted my time and my resources attempting to pump out spies so that I could clear some thirty plus planets. Since this event, I have concluded that the majority of players are right in their opinions... the spy system itself needs some serious re-working.
As tons of people have pointed out, spies should be able to do much more than block a resource tile. Spies should not automatically be detected.

There is a fine line though between giving the spies more abilities and having to micro manage them. Next, someone will say that each spy should have a ship to bring him to the planet he's spying on to make it more realistic, then he'll need to have the secret codes, and more techs so they can have cool gadgets, etc. I know im exagerating but they will be someone wanting all that. I mean to add even more to the tech tree to stop AI spys... i don't want that, isnt it just as easy to have a bunch of counter spys on standby? You ARE informed of where they are.

The spies are just one more thing thrown into the mix to keep it interesting and never the same twice. It gives the player another way to change the strategy they decide to play the game with. I like that its simple and not something i have to give too much thought to. i dont want to spend 20 minutes working my spies.

True, but there is a difference between espionage and sabotage. I want to make that choice.

I agree with this and it is always good to see the devs throw something else in to spice it up. You might have been a little bit 'extreme' in what you think people would ask for, but I'm sure the potential is there judging from what I've seen people ask for in here in the past.
But in all honesty, revamping the spy system wouldn't (or shouldn't) involve messing with the tech tree or adding 'buildings' to the mix. Just give them some more options. Like people have said, don't make them destructive. Allow the spy to merely gather info. Allow the spy to possibly steal some technology, or credits, or something. And regardless of the hows and whys... it doesn't make much sense that a placed spy is immediately detected. I don't care if he's thwarting production or not, he still shouldn't be so easily detected.

point taken.


i guess the trouble is that whatever you can do, so can the AI. i guess when your production lapses you'll eventually figue out that theres a spy somewhere.

I personnally would like to chose the tech they steal. its no use getting a tech that you skipped in a trade and have no use for, same when you take a planet. I dont need "new propusion" when i already have "warp".

i agree, the spy system needs re-working. however, i wouldn't call this a pure joke. i've encountered this event at least twice. lucky for me, i usually build counter-espionage centers.

why, you ask? wouldn't those tiles do more for your empire as a stock market? i guess it depends on how you play. the stock markets give you more money. you can use that money to pay for more spies. the CECs make your planets immune to spies, which saves you money in a sense, since you don't need to waste your spies on nullifying everyone else's. at that point, my spies are purely offensive.

i'm not about to do any math trying to figure out which is better economically, but i'd guess that CECs save you money in the long run, since the cost of spies grows exponentially, but only if you planned on buying and using spies in the first place.

yes, i agree the system needs reworking, and i do like some of the suggestions raised above: invisible spying, the ability to figure out who sent the spy, options besides sabotaging a planet improvement. maybe a simple fix would be a special menu tiggered if you place a spy on a initial colony capital; rather than shutting the capital down, the spy stays there (visible or not) performing a special mission (steal tech, cause unrest, etc).

*

anyway, here's a question that just occured to me. does the AI make better decisions than it would without spying? that is, does it "know" how to use the information it gains via spying?

For those of you who really hate cleaning spies, do you use the counter-espianoge centers? Its not a very time-intensive tech to research and each center gives a 20% morale boost, which is usually better than anything I use on the entertainment tech line.

You might have to slide the social bar up high for a few turns to get them built quickly but you never have to worry about those red menaces afterward.

Yes, and this was the part where I was truly naive I guess since the first time the event happened to me I immediately set to rush buying the counter espionage center... only to realize that it doesn't affect spies that are already placed (if it's supposed to then the feature doesn't seem to work). Talk about wasted money and effort. I should have known better but like I said, I was new to the event.

So if the CEC gives a 20% morale boost what does some of the actualy moral buildings give? Is it worth building a CEC in place of , say, a Zero G Arena?

This is new information to me. The Counter Espionage Centers give 20% morale boost?? I thought that was the Secret Police Center, which I have always regarded worthless. If that's the case, CEC's are going to be a great way to beat getting ganged up on.

What I have always done is, I spy on them first, before they spy on me. That way spies are a pain in THEIR back--not mine. And I'm getting really nice intelligence on them. But I'm not getting ganged up on by 8 civilizations, either.

I think paying everybody to go to war with each other is the answer. That's going to be a lot cheaper in the long run than counter espionage. I would be VERY surprised if the AI plants spies on you when they're at war with somebody else.

Spies in DA sound annoying, and are one of the reasons i havn't bothered bying it yet.

[quote]Aww, dont like a challenge?

There is a big difference between challenging and annoying.... When a game feature is challenging you will find yourself thinking about new strategies when your not even playing! When a game feature is annoying you will find yourself thinking of what other games you can play!!!

That is too funny. Good point though in general.

Here's what I had to say in another thread about the espionage system:

It seems to me a bit unrealistic that spies are automatically detected when placed on a planet. They must be pretty inept at remaining under cover! How about making it so that you have a certain chance each turn to detect the presence of an enemy spy? That chance could be based on many things--morale, government type, tech level, etc.--but a great idea would be to establish a new branch of the tech tree that deals with espionage. Right now, there's really just one thing there, but there could be two extensive sub branches: one for espionage, and one for counter-espionage. A civ's progress down either branch would translate directly into their chances of successfully completing a spy mission, or successfully detecting an enemy spy. And spies should not be removable at all until they're actually "found."

Of course, it should still be possible to detect the presence of a spy by noticing the evidence of their presence (i.e. your manufacturing capital is mysteriously not functioning). And perhaps there could be a special function you could enable when the presence of a spy is suspected (like a temporary shutdown of the planet; increase the chance of spy detection at the penalty of reduced or no production, or sharply decreased morale, etc). But until a spy is actually rooted out, it should not be possible to remove it. This would make the current system far more useful, strategic, and interesting.

I would also like to see some diversity in spy missions. Perhaps let us destroy improvements altogether. Or make it so that the type of improvement a spy is placed on dictates the type of mission: place him on a research improvement and he focuses on stealing tech, on an econ improvement and he steals money, on an industrial site and production for that planet is hampered. Maybe something really interesting could be devised for placing the spy directly on the initial colony site; planetary subversion, perhaps? Who knows? Hopefully these suggestions are actually possible within the current GalCiv2 engine. But I certainly think that they should be addressed by the time we see GalCiv3.

If you're checking production on all your planets.



This sounds like it's just a useless feature (not really, see below), you just swap a building and get more or less the same effect. How can that be a good thing?
Of course, it's not the same thing, because:



Yep, true, it gives a 20% morale boost (1 per planet max), same as the Extreme Stadium, with lower maintenance - a bit more expensive though, but the counter-espionage ability is handy.



Another one of those things that were not properly thought out. The CEC is unique to each planet though, and the ZGA is 30% morale with 2 maint and no restrictions on numbers. But unless you want to go for high pop worlds (which aren't all that good these days...), you'll be better off with the CEC - anti-spies AND morale!



The SPC also gives 20% morale, is WAY more expensive, AND can have agents placed upon it (so do ZGAs). And it's a super project. The only advantage is no maintenance. Hardly worth it. Another one for the count.

sorry, double post

I would like to make the positive case for how espionage has been set up for DA. A lot of complaining about a lot of game elements as "not being realistic", like having spies detected immediately upon placement, need to be seen in the context of gameplay simplicity and balance issues.

The developers COULD have chosen to use more complex systems calculating odds of spy detection based on espionage and counter-espionage tech levels or whatever, but would that enhance gameplay? If you have hidden spies sapping manufacturing, should the effect still be visible somehow when you drill down to the colony detail screens to see where the actual production numbers are being derived from? I suspect that the idea of needing to review colony detail to look for the tell-tale sign that you have spies somewhere affecting your colony would be an unwelcome addition of micromanagement to advanced players. As it is now, spies are just another asset in your arsenal; ones that can be used anonomously without going to war. When attacked by spies, the key gameplay point is not detecting them, but having and/or choosing to use the resources to counter them... or not.

The system is simple elegance because it gives substantial flexibility in how you choose to "spend" your spying investment; offensive, defensive or stockpile your spy force for some huge assault on some future enemy. If you do get into a spy war with an opponent, eventually the one who spent more on his spies will be the only one with any still in operation, perhaps forcing an opponent to allocate more $$ to spying and away from building warships, or not and just pay the price of losing tech and intelligence to you.

Personally, I have gone games where I spent almost nothing on spies, and rarely felt like the AI was particularly fond of using them against me (at least on tough). Generally though, I like to have a few spies in reserve for defense, and it is a great option to assist an ally fighting an opponent when you don't actually want to enter the war yourself... And at some point I want to try building up a big stockpile of spies and then unleashing them all at once to cripple an opponent's economy just as my fleets start into their territory. Maybe not as cost effective as just building more warships, but might be fun anyway.

Just research Counter-Espionage.

Build those anti-spy buildings on your planets.

I have, and have concluded that you are a
!!!

*Nothing* "personal", but that was a pretty pointless post.

I just find the DA spy system not fun. I tend to now just play as Krynn to get the Counter espionage tech early and the extra spy. I dislike missing out on the other cool special abilities but it prevents me from getting super frustrated with enemy agents. The DL spy system wasn't particularly intriguing but at least it wasn't a constant source of annoyance. I really like the rest of DA but I just hope the spy system could be tweaked or even replaced with something better.

The problem with the spy system is that there is no way one empire will be able to fend off the spies of all other empires. The fact that there is no way to increase the production of spies besides spending huge chunks of cash is what really makes the current system annoying. I really wonder if spying may have been put into the game as a sort of money sink, because I don't see much other use for it.

I am in full agreement. it got so annoying that I shut the darn game down. I had built my military strong enoung to to head off all 8 Civs. and had 2 allies.. But then the Spies started, one then two, then three and thn four. Eacg one of course were put on strategic tiles. The problem is that each spy you make costs wou more money, therefore you cannot keep up with eight different Civs sending you $100 spies, but I need $1000 spies to nullify them. In fact by the time I got fed up with it all, my espionage level was at max, so my inconomy took a dive. The anti espionage Tech cannot be optained until you have the time to wait for it to be built on each planet, instaid of the factory that you realy need. It takes too long to build it. By that time you are knee deep in spies.

Lets take real life as a model. A spy is hired an then trained. The level of training required and hence training cost incured comensurates depending on the task at hand and how secure the city is that must be spyed on. In this fashion, your ennemy, must commit some resources to be able to get through your security defences undetected.But there is alway a chance that a counter spy agency will notice the spy and aprehend it. The spy can be interrigated to find out who sent him. If he is from an ally, ou now have the option of breaking your treaty. Or atacking them.

I have been in battles where my ally must have been spying on me, because I had destroyed my enemy's economy, yet the darn spies still came.

I am in full agreement. it got so annoying that I shut the darn game down. I had built my military strong enoung to to head off all 8 Civs. and had 2 allies.. But then the Spies started, one then two, then three and thn four. Eacg one of course were put on strategic tiles. The problem is that each spy you make costs wou more money, therefore you cannot keep up with eight different Civs sending you $100 spies, but I need $1000 spies to nullify them. In fact by the time I got fed up with it all, my espionage level was at max, so my inconomy took a dive. The anti espionage Tech cannot be optained until you have the time to wait for it to be built on each planet, instaid of the factory that you realy need. It takes too long to build it. By that time you are knee deep in spies.

Lets take real life as a model. A spy is hired an then trained. The level of training required and hence training cost incured comensurates depending on the task at hand and how secure the city is that must be spyed on. In this fashion, your ennemy, must commit some resources to be able to get through your security defences undetected.But there is alway a chance that a counter spy agency will notice the spy and aprehend it. The spy can be interrigated to find out who sent him. If he is from an ally, ou now have the option of breaking your treaty. Or atacking them.

I have been in battles where my ally must have been spying on me, because I had destroyed my enemy's economy, yet the darn spies still came.