Hi!

So why don't you set the experiment in a less dynamic universe: like just 1 opponet with fool/beginner inteligence, no other AIs, and with cheats on?

IMO you're going in too much details with researching efficency of the trade-enhancing SBs. Build in significant numbers they're too costly to pay for themself in a reasonable time. Also, trade routes that they're supporting tend to dissapear too easily by "assasiantion" and "war has expanded" events, and bribed wars.

BR, Iztok

What your saying is true to a point, however, I have discovered a situation ... an exception if you will, whereby the AI can be molded into cooperating. In my current test senario, 1 minor civ exists within my territory the "Lentz" is how I will call them, an offshoot of the Terrans. They exist in a cluster of 4 worlds where I inhabit the other 3. The location was suitable for investigating the 20 starbase senario. I was able to cover 2 worlds with 384% starbase bonus each and 1 with a 288% starbase bonus, according to the planetary details screen. This investigation, however, has been marred by a reporting discrepancy between the details, summary, and planetary management screen - each one reporting different information. For example, UP has lowered trade restrictions twice yet I produce nearly 2k bc per turn for trade with the Lentz. Most of it within the cluster from my 3 worlds - the farthest being 3 squares away, and due to the huge starbase bonuses. My focus was determining the most economic military production possible. It was also necessary to have Galatic Privateer to prevent the AI from attacking the freighters. The 2 384% starbase bonus worlds were different sizes, 1 PQ13 and 1 PQ15. The PQ15 world is the one I will focus on in this post. It has moons, and a quantum power supply giving the planet a base 110% production bonus. There are no mines in the sector. The starbase bonus, as previously mentioned is 384%. According to the details screen, the planet produces 61mp per turn at 60/20/20 (M/S/T). According to the summary screen the planet produces 44mp per turn. According to the planet management screen, it produces 299mp per turn. Maintenance is 19 bc. Spending is 61 bc. Income is 119 bc per turn. Military production bonus in the civ reports screen is 50%. I suspect the reporting discrepancy is a result of some type of limit. I will have to investigate further to determine more precisely what is happening.

Hi!

Please do! The reported 50% free bonus production from abilities and starbases is way off the results players are getting. Like yours:


How can that be, if only 50% of production is free? In your case it's more like 90%.

BR, Iztok

Dear Iztok,
My test subject is a PQ15 planet with moons. Planetary improvements are as follows:
1 civ cap 12mp 12bc maint
1 CEC 1bc maint (+20 morale)
1 Starport 1bc maint
1 SE 1bc maint
8 Basic Fac's 0bc maint (4mp ea=32mp total)
1 QPS 3bc maint (+100%)

Summary correctly reports 44mp total
employment sliders are 60%/20%/20% (M/S/T)
industry slider is at 100% employment
tax rate is 69%
approval is 100%
1 trade route to the "Lentz" 1 sq away at 280bc per turn avg

Details Screen reports:

61mp production per turn - I expected 57 because it normally reports base mp + unused social (13 iu) in this case it reports 131% bonus on unused social production, or 17 iu. My abilities in the civ management reports only accounts for 60% social production bonus, and thus I have a 71% iu bonus unaccounted for. I suspect it is due to trading since I have only observed it here, however, further study is required. Conversely, if it were a military ability production bonus (which is 50%) the production should be 75mp or 44mp +50% bonus (66mp) + 13 iu +60% bonus (9iu), neither of which can be the case. (This is assuming the military production breakdown on the planetary management screen is correct, which I believe since the numbers fall into place.) If the 61mp in the details screen is as it appears to be then it represents the amount of production for which I am actually paying labor costs on(i.e. 44mp + 17mp). Please be aware I have identical improvements on the other 384% starbase bonus production world with 5 basic factories versus 7. Is also shows similar, though slightly higher, cost ratio analysis with an overall lower production of around ~81mp on the planetary screen (no quantum powersupply & no moons). I strongly suspect that the planetary bonus 110% is actually responsible for the observed discrepancy (assuming the 61mp military production is actually the production costs I am paying for)... i.e. they appear to add to the starbase bonus directly without charge resulting in an accumulated free production bonus of 80% versus the stated 50% bonus of the starbase alone which the PQ13 world appears to follow. Also this bonus production may be specific to basic factories only, as my previous study with the Terrans seemed to indicate (currently this civ is the Korx). Also adjusting my employment sliders for 100% military show total production increases to 400+ mps, total spending increases to 110bc, and military production in the details screen mirrors spending at 110mp. The increased cost reflects the loss of social production and its commensurate 60% bonus thus reducing effective production to ~70% vice the 80% previously observed. Meaning unused iu(s) add directly to military production at no reduction and are not multiplied by production bonuses. By itself however, it does not account for the remaining 82mps that are produced free and multiplied by bonuses (+384 starbase bonus, +50% military ability bonus, +110% planet production bonus) suggesting that basic factories produce an undocumented 54% bonus production when combined with power supplies (i.e. 26% which is doubled by the QPSs +100 bonus.) Further testing is necessary to determine if this success is repeated with a manufactoring capital - results will dictate if it is suitable to test with both as well.

NOTE: I have not been able to reproduce these results with other than basic factories at this time.

Postscript: It is more likely the case that the quantum power supply +100% bonus adds directly to the other bonuses and that only the starbase +384% bonus is actually charged although the numbers still do not match spending at 50% cost(i.e. 86bc spending expected). The cost breakdown on the planetary amangement screen, however, for military production would have to be incorrect somehow ...

Conclusion: The Korx Supertrader ability is deadly if used properly in large or greater maps. Having 1-1.5k bc route average income per turn is acheivable if you can aquire a minor civ in a sector capable of exploiting the 20 starbase configuration with 12 traderoutes from your largest trade planets to the pet civ (as long as you have the Galactic Privateer acheivement and a sufficient military to protect your civ and starbases. Once you establish routes some adjustment is required to acheive optimum return. To get the maximum 1.5k bc per turn I also had 2 UP proposals (second 1 permanent) which lowered trade restrictions effectively doubling income each turn and as the Korx I had the mercantile as my political party. It is also advisable to give your pet civ certain techs conducive to trade. Specifically they need a CEC to avoid the espionage megaevent, an economic capital, stock exchanges and optionally food techs to increase base population.

Postscript: I forgot to mention 1 tile in the test subject was an economic capital from the prexisting civ....

Postscript: I also gave the pet civ all the trade techs so I could compound my starbase trade bonuses, however, the pet civ's trade routes don't last long as the other major civs will actively interfere with its trade...

cool... but i have run into a problem. i tried to build a bunch right along my trade route but i keep running out of starbase logistics before i finish building along all my trade routes.

Are you playing DL? DA doesn't have logistics as far as I know, just a 5bc per turn maintenance fee?

DL, i haven't bought DA yet.

In DL it costs you money AND starbases logistics, you can have up to 50 starbases a game.

Today the final tally is in with a REMARKABLE discovery:

I took my previous measurements while my pet civ the Lentzlandians were at war with all the major civs. Sunday morning I contacted all the major civs and bought peace for the Lentz with them. After everybody made peace 2 incredible things happened:

1) The Lentz (which previously had been building ships stopped doing so and established trade with my civ at relations friendly) ...

This caused my military production to immediately fall from 299mp per turn to 260mp per turn!!! My current stats are now as follows:

World: Lentzlandian II barren PQ15 100% barren colonization researched
population: 7B
military production: 260 [with 44 from factories, 194 from abilities/bonuses at 1/2 charge, 22 from social production.]
research: 11, approval 100, income: 137bc, spending: 87bc, maintenance: 19bc

Improvements are as follows:
FDC,CEC,QPS,SP,8BF,1 SE,Ecap

Korx abilities are as follows:
economy +157%,morale +219%,social production +60%,military production +50%, research +129%, trade +170%, interest +25%,routes +20%.

Summary:
maintenance 19bc, food 6 mt/wk, economic bonus +75%, industry bonus +100%, influence bonus +5%, research 10tp,morale bonus +25%, food production bonus +25%.

Details:
Starbase production/research bonus +384%, morale bonus +25%, economic bonus +75%, food production 7 mt/wk, military production 66mp, social production 0, research 2 tp.

empire wise the Korx have 27 worlds with 4206bc from taxes, 3992bc from trade, 40bc from tribute, 2125bc from tourism, 282bc from economic treaties, for a total income of 10645 with the following relevent expenses:

starbase maintenance 265bc, bonus production 775bc, and a total cost of 3944bc per turn.

As you can now see, the numbers jive now ... meaning the unaccounted bonus production was generated from my pet civ the Lentz during their battle with the major AIs. This is surely an exploitable production bug since it now seems obvious that the bonus production the Lentz was generating was being added directly to my civ worlds with in the economic starbase area of influence. Ineffect they were underwriting my production costs, which would explain why the additional free bonus production evaporated when they stopped building ships!!!

My previous thoughts that this was somehow a basic factory issue are probably wrong and instaed are likely due to this bug I discovered.

Has ANYONE ELSE duplicated this effect yet?

you have DA, so no i havent. but i'm taking a stab in the dark here saying that the war effort take a lot of reasorces.

More paragraph breaks please slabster. It's really hard to read your posts, and yet they are so full of useful info...

Sorry I'll use more highlighting effects in the future to make it readable