Spore ship gives unfair advantage

from GalCiv2 Forums
Hi!
Currently I'm playing a small maso game with Korath. IMO I have the easiest game of all maso games I played. The main reason is Spore ship.

What advantages it gives?
1) no matter what population the attacked planet has, it's all destroyed
--> no need for invasion tech(s),
--> no need for lots of troops
      --> no need for high growth
             --> very high taxes possible.

2) no matter what environment the attacked planet has, it's converted in toxic
--> I need only the second half of one extreme tech to research to have all conquered planets
      at 100% production (the only penalized output)
      --> LOTS of saved TPs for researching other techs.

3) the spore attack counts as invasion
--> I gained lots of techs that way.

4) planet is mine after spore attack
--> no colonizers spended for re-colonizing, just for ferrying pop.

Now combine those advantages with the "invulnerable" high-defense ships and the off-type defense bug and you get a combo that's insanely easy to play.

IMO SuperAnihilator ability has to be nerfed:
1) spore attack kills only a certain number of population. If attacked race has 2nd toxic tech that amount is halved. If that's too weak an additional spore tech that triples the attack power can be developed;
2) successfull spore attack may not count as an invasion;
3) after all population is destroyed, planet becomes un-owned (nobody's property).

The SuperAnihilator would retain it's advantage of having to research only one extreme colonizing tech, but everything else would became more costly. The combined spore - invasion attack would be needed to get tech through invasion, and lots of colonizers would be spent to actually get new planets, not like in my current game, where I'm running a "train" of ~30 colonizers from my core planets to spored planets, to drop there more population.

Comments?

BR, Iztok
12,446 views 24 replies
Reply #1 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
After playing Super Breeder, I don't think Korath has an unfair advantage at all. Super Breeder is superior to spore ships in every way. They just research Planetary Invasion and they have an unlimited supply of soldiers, the planet is not toxic, and instead of a zero population, the planet blows up into a fully-populated, economically viable planet in like 10 turns without any help.
Reply #2 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Although I don't play with the depth that you guys do, especially you Iztok, I agree with you with regards to the spore ships being a bit 'too much'. I only played a couple of games using this ability and after the initial 'shine' wore off I found that the spore ships were basically a game spoiler. Win or lose I like to, no... I WANT TO, have fun playing the game. I've had quite a few 'great' games where in the end I was handed my ass on a silver platter... those were actually the losses I posted on the Meta. To make a long opinion short, , to use spore ships IMO is pretty much like finding the uber cheese cheat code. I even quit a game or two when I was using them because it was just too easy... too easy and too unfair to my opponents in my eyes.
Star Control: Origins
Reply #3 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Nerfing spore ships is not a solution. They're incredible. But they're not better than the Super Breeder, the Super Hive, or the Super Warrior, all of which give incredible advantages, espically when the player changes their play style to take maximize those advantages.

Super abilities should be that. Super Annihilatior is one of the few that is truely super. Don't nerf them until they're in line with the more mundane, nearly useless Super Abilities, like Super Spy or Super Dominator. Bring the ones that are less useful up to par.
Reply #4 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Well, addressing the other environments of planets issue, it wouldn't make sense for an aquatic planet to simply be converted into a toxic planet simply because of the spore ship. I don't see the two as being mutually exclusive. I don't see why planets couldn't be toxic, and aquatic at the same time. But, then again, perhaps that's nitpicking a bit much.

Having the spore ship uncolonize the planet instead of conquering it would balance it a bit I think, but then you have to make sure that the AI will have colonizing ships nearby whenever a sporeship razes a planet, and I'm not sure easy/hard it would be to code that.

This ability does though make the Korath one of the strongest races in nearly every game I play though, because since it's so easy for them to conquer a planet, and since they can tech up from conquering a planet, combined with their aggressiveness they often skyrocket technolocially (and establish a very powerful research base from all the acquired planets they have).
Reply #5 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Spore ships do give a significant advantage, but personally I like that for when I fight against the Korath. Actually taking worlds and good pop management has always been a... weaker element of the AI IME, and finally with the Korath we get an AI that is aggressive and actually takes worlds.

The AI is bad at colonizing after the colony rush is over (see the mega event that turns all planets in 5 sectors into class 10s. For me, that has always been loads of free planets for the player), and turning it into a world that needs a new colonizer has several weaknesses. The biggest weakness is the Korath couldn't hold a world unless they sent colonizers with their spore ships. That is a whole new thing for the AI to worry about for one. If the world went to unowned, when at war with the Korath I would just sit a bunch of fast colony ships in range of my planets, because if they went to being unowned the Korath couldn't put defenders in orbit.

Of your three solutions, I most support idea number one, and I most object to idea number three. All in all the Korath are very powerful, but they are supposed to be very powerful. Their power mostly comes from a superability, compared to the Krynn for instance whose power mostly comes through lots of very high racial stats. Its part of the new balancing act.

You can always play with super abilities off if it bothers you too much.
Reply #6 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
When I first played against the Korath, I thought that their spore ships would only destroy the population and then leave the planet uninhabited and unclaimed, so I was surprised when I bought a few spore ships from them and tested them out for myself. It really is easier to invade with spore ships, but I suppose the downside that the developers intended for this ability was the need to research Toxic world colonization and the advanced version. Also, you'll start off with a very small population on that colony, which leaves it vulnerable to transports as well as being possibly very expensive, due to the maintenance costs from the buildings that are already present on the planet. That seems like it would balance out their ability to invade rather cheaply and early on, since if they over-extend theirself, they could end up setting back their economy.
Reply #7 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Personally, I have to agree with the people that pointed out that Super Breeder is a far better super ability when it comes to invasions.

I tried both the SuperAnnihilator and the Super Breeder abilities, and I found that Super Breeder was way more powerful.

I am currently playing a Gigantic game on Suicidal where I already have a population of 15 trillion people and I am only at the end of the 3rd year.

I started invading before the 1st year was over and I had pretty much won the game by the end of the 2nd year.

SuperAnnihilator is a good super ability, but it doesn't help you with your economy. The early game is all about economy.

I agree that SuperAnnihilator is a great Super Ability, but it isn't over powered.

Rather than nerfing any of the existing super abilities I think the less than great super abilities need to be buffed up.

- Livonya
Reply #8 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

It's definitely a powerful super, but I'd rather not see it nerfed, if the Korath are overpowered then take away some of their points or other abilities.


1) no matter what population the attacked planet has, it's all destroyed
--> no need for invasion tech(s),
--> no need for lots of troops
--> no need for high growth
--> very high taxes possible.


I find the same thing with tidal disruptors, with 2000 troops you can pretty much take 90% of the computer's planets with 2k troops and it doesn't take that long to research up to that early, plus spore ships takes longer to research than planetary invasion.

And the planets you take with spore still require population if you want them to grow, so you still need a colony ship.


2) no matter what environment the attacked planet has, it's converted in toxic
--> I need only the second half of one extreme tech to research to have all conquered planets
at 100% production (the only penalized output)
--> LOTS of saved TPs for researching other techs.


I always find after the first war I have most of the colonisation techs anyway because I end up stealing them all when I invade, by the time I actually have to research one it only takes a turn anyway.



Reply #9 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Nerfing spore ships is not a solution. They're incredible. But they're not better than the Super Breeder, the Super Hive, or the Super Warrior, all of which give incredible advantages, espically when the player changes their play style to take maximize those advantages.


I agree about super hive and super breeder but super warrior? I played as the arceans and didn't even notice I even had the ability, and I've never had a problem fighting enemy Arcean fleets, they still go down just as quick as anyone else. Is there some trick to using it right?
Reply #10 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Is there some trick to using it right?


Lots of offense, speed and miniturization. Pick +2 speed and +20% weapons, and then put no engines and cram lots of weapons onto every ship. Any turn a super warrior ship attacks, any ships it destroys in the first round do not fire back. This makes the dreaded cargo hull killers viable, you don't need any hitpoints, just guns.

The weakness of the super warrior ability is that it only works when they attack, on the defense both sides fire simultaneously. The AI generally builds slower ships than the player, so when you fight the Arcean AI, you don't notice this being powerful.

However, Build a bunch of 1k attack huge hull ships, and you can literally, actually, without exageration, destroy a thousand ships to one.

Hope that helps.
Reply #11 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Given Livonya's massive points total, I'm inclined to say, the proof is in your scoring. I'll give super breeder at try next.
Reply #13 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Hi!
Super Breeder is superior to spore ships in every way.

Ermmmm, which one, besides lots of population, that gives some more cash? My point was: using Super Anihilator advanatages is cheap. Way cheaper than Super Breeder.

This is just an anecdotical evidence, but I've played and abandoned a suicidal Super Breeder game, because I had there only population, and nothing else (besides bad luck with gaining tech through invasion and "war expanding" every few weeks). The current suicidal game with Korath is at turn 52 and I'm on a good way to victory. I just need to dig myself out of the financiall hole I fell in with so many spored planets that don't produce any cash.

BR, Iztok
Reply #14 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Hi!
Rather than nerfing any of the existing super abilities I think the less than great super abilities need to be buffed up.

Loking at Super Anihilator throgh this perspective, I have to agree. Those abilities should be someting SUPERior. With current settings Super Spy isn't even close, Super Dominator is weak, and at maso+ the Super Diplomat can't do much more than any other player with high diplomacy.

BR, Iztok
Reply #15 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

Is there some trick to using it right?


Lots of offense, speed and miniturization. Pick +2 speed and +20% weapons, and then put no engines and cram lots of weapons onto every ship. Any turn a super warrior ship attacks, any ships it destroys in the first round do not fire back. This makes the dreaded cargo hull killers viable, you don't need any hitpoints, just guns.

The weakness of the super warrior ability is that it only works when they attack, on the defense both sides fire simultaneously. The AI generally builds slower ships than the player, so when you fight the Arcean AI, you don't notice this being powerful.

However, Build a bunch of 1k attack huge hull ships, and you can literally, actually, without exageration, destroy a thousand ships to one.

Hope that helps.


I'm still not convinced, typically my ships have a lot of defence and they still destroy many, many AI ships without dying and are WAY cheaper than cramming a ship full of offence.

Certainly you would agree the ability doesn't even come close to something like Super Annihilator or Super Breeder.


Reply #16 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I don't see why planets couldn't be toxic, and aquatic at the same time. But, then again, perhaps that's nitpicking a bit much.


Actually, aquatic planets don't make much sense period. It's not really possible to have a planet entirely covered by water. Earth, with ~2/3 of its surface covered with water, *is* an aquatic planet. These planets should be called Ice planets, and that includes frozen methane surfaces for example.
On the same line of thought, Radioactive planets don't make much sense either, maybe they meant Radiated, like Mercury? Again, good ideas are horribly implemented in this game.

All in all the Korath are very powerful, but they are supposed to be very powerful.


Well, they're but a *clan*, part of an empire. They actually start with the same pop as the Drengin   

Their power mostly comes from a superability, compared to the Krynn for instance whose power mostly comes through lots of very high racial stats. Its part of the new balancing act.

You can always play with super abilities off if it bothers you too much.


Problem is playing without SAs. These balancing acts aren't very good. For example, the races that start with better tech but worst natural abilities, eventually the other races will research those techs and get the benefits (ability bonuses) associated to them. Then, they'll have those benefits, *and* the natural ones. Sure, there's some advantage in the beginning, but they'll fade pretty quick.
Balance should be achieved in each "building block" of a race, not globally.

the Super Diplomat can't do much more than any other player with high diplomacy.


This is the only reason actually why Terrans are "the diplomats and traders" of the galaxy... they haven't been the traders for some time (Korx), and they're not really *the* diplomats anymore. Except for the SA that is. The Drath have better diplo, and the Krynn have the same. Sad.
Reply #17 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Super Breeder is superior to spore ships in every way.


Ermmmm, which one, besides lots of population, that gives some more cash? My point was: using Super Anihilator advanatages is cheap. Way cheaper than Super Breeder.

This is just an anecdotical evidence, but I've played and abandoned a suicidal Super Breeder game, because I had there only population, and nothing else (besides bad luck with gaining tech through invasion and "war expanding" every few weeks). The current suicidal game with Korath is at turn 52 and I'm on a good way to victory. I just need to dig myself out of the financiall hole I fell in with so many spored planets that don't produce any cash.



I'll try to compare how you run a Super Annihilator empire vs. a Super Breeder, point-by-point:

1) Super Annihilator has to research Spore Weapons. Super Breeder has to research Planetary Invasion, and optionally Advanced Troop Mod. Neither really cares about Soldiering or Invasion tactics much.

2) Super Annihilator builds Spore ships and a colony ship. Super Breeder builds transports. The transports can run between 30-150bc more than a spore ship.

3) When you spore a planet, you have 0 population & have to ferry it in. Super Breeder gets a starting population and doesn't have to ferry anything--their low population means they're automatically at 100% approval, so they're growing.

4) Super Annihilator doesn't need soldiers. Super Breeder has infinite soldiers.

5) Super Breeder gets a better early-game colony and invasion rush. When you spore rush, you take an economic hit early on because you have to ferry in population from other planets that aren't that big yet. Super Breeder, both the planet you invade and the planet you pulled soldiers from grow back in a few turns by themselves.

6) Super Breeder's early-game economy grows at 8x the rate of Super Annihilator, so they can better afford a planetary invasion rush than a spore rush.

7) Super Annihilator gets a planet that's yellow. Super Breeder doesn't.

8) Super Annihilator benefits from their ability only when they spore a planet. Super Breeder benefits from their ability every single turn.


In other words, Torians beat Korath at their own game, because Torians have infinite soldiers. And the Torians still have other bonuses.
Reply #18 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Sorry, way off topic, but I'm curious: why are planets entirely covered by water not really possible, particulary if its geologically inactive? They've certainly been a staple of sf for a long time, and in real life isn't Europa covered by a "world" ocean? Ok the surface is frozen and technically its a moon not a planet, but, it certainly suggests that such a body would be possible. On less sure ground, I seem to remember watching a documentary about the formation of the solar system which indicated that one of the two planets which collided to form Earth and the Moon was entirely aquatic, with Earth being less so, because some water was lost in the collision and the difference in size between Earth and the Moon being much more extreme than that between the two original planets.

best

vince
Reply #19 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
tetleytea, what your saying is true... if a human player is playing with those abilities. It is my experience that when i have both the Korath and the Torians in the same game their AIs (more so the Torians) suck at properly using their abilities... therefor the simpilest super ability almost always comes out on top because the AI can acutally us it.

In almost every game i every play i give myself MAX points at the begining in pop growth. I play on cripling, and in every game i play i out pop the torians (and every one else) by so much its not funny... my point is i dont think the AI for the torians understands that it needs to keep its taxes low to ballon its pop correctly. (somthing i dont do either, but i still out pop them considerably). The Korath almost ALWAYS kick the torians butts. if the Torians knew how to use their pop more wisely thier supper wouldnt suck so much.

Anyway all this to say, if a human player is playing with cirtain abilities the balancing act is much different then if the AI is using them. Human ablitiy will compleatly change whether a supper is good or not simply because the AI rarely uses them well.

and on a side note

Sorry, way off topic, but I'm curious: why are planets entirely covered by water not really possible, particulary if its geologically inactive? They've certainly been a staple of sf for a long time, and in real life isn't Europa covered by a "world" ocean? Ok the surface is frozen and technically its a moon not a planet, but, it certainly suggests that such a body would be possible. On less sure ground, I seem to remember watching a documentary about the formation of the solar system which indicated that one of the two planets which collided to form Earth and the Moon was entirely aquatic, with Earth being less so, because some water was lost in the collision and the difference in size between Earth and the Moon being much more extreme than that between the two original planets.

best

vince


a frozen "aquatic" planet is actually much more realistic, however it is possible for a purely aquatic world the way we think of it now. it would have a VERY thick atmosphear, and would need to be just the right distance from its star. either way, i like the system we have now with colonizing techs. i think there should be a slider for extream/regular habitable planets... but thats just my oppinion
Reply #20 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Certainly you would agree the ability doesn't even come close to something like Super Annihilator or Super Breeder.


Certainly I would. It is an ability that takes work to get the most out of, like Super Organizer. Theses are both powerful in their own right, but take skill and planning to use to full effect. Super Hive or Super Annihilator don't really take manipulating the situation to get the most out of them, so they are much more powerful.

For me, I would say:
Excellent SAs) Super Breeder, Super Hive, Super Annihilator
Good SAs) Super Warrior, Super Organizer, Super Manipulator
Average SAs) Super Trader, Super Isolationist, Super Diplomat
Poor SAs) Super Spy, Super Adaptor, Super Dominator

At least based on my experience. The excellent SAs take no work to use right, and can give significant advantages. The Good SAs can also give significant advantages, but are more situational - and require more skill to get the most out of. The Average SAs can really change a game, or they might do almost nothing. Practice won't always help you, sometimes the situation is such that these abilities don't do much. The Poor SAs give almost nothing, or can be gained easily through other means. If you try to change a game with them you will be disappointed, especially at the higher difficulties.

Problem is playing without SAs. These balancing acts aren't very good.


I really agree. If you turn them off, have fun watching the Krynn win every single game. There are a few stat/starting tech monsters that just dominate when you turn SAs off. Heck, even playing WITH the Krynn, you could cripple half your enemies by turning SAs off, not like YOU get anything with super spy. I always play with them on because I like them, but if you start turning them off it really shakes up the balance.
Reply #21 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

thetraviler, the Torian AI is horrible and in no way should be a reflection of the effectiveness of the Torians from a player's perspective.

Last game I played with a Torian AI in it they had researched up to industrial sectors but still were running round with small hulled ships doing 8 damage. Not surprisingly they were getting stomped by the Drengin. They were just lucky I came in and "liberated" them before they could be enslaved.

Reply #22 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
The espionage system should be improved imho, then you wouldn't have to turn off the SA's to fully enjoy The Krynn.
Reply #23 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
SPORE is working as intended. 'nuff said.