Wyndstar Wyndstar

The Death of Morale Buildings

▼

The Death of Morale Buildings

One player's choice

from GalCiv2 Forums
Alright. Well, I'm sure many of you are brilliant players who could leave me in the dust, so congratulations if you have a better strategy. However, I recently finally figured out how to work through the entire economy model thanks to work by Mumblefratz and Iztok. Going through the numbers it seemed like morale buildings just weren't worth it, so I thought I would play a game without morale buildings as the Krynn and see how I did.

I'm still not done, but the game is going GREAT. I am at around March of 2228 with 40ish colonies on a small map. My empire morale is already over +250%, and there is still one morale resource I haven't managed to capture. Every world is set for a population of 20 (6+7+7) or 19 (12+7), and my tax rate is at 69%. I'm raking in the money, and my approval is just over 60% empire wide thanks to higher morale on my 19b planets and my homeworld. This is just ancedotal evidence however, and I was thinking about it while at work today. The numbers for morale buildings just don't add up.

From a broad theoretical level, of course, morale buildings already have a problem. With low population numbers, they are very useful but unneccessary, so why build them? With higher population numbers you want them, but they are much less useful and every single one takes a tile. In theory I suppose they would be good in a middle ground situation, with a medium population taking up one tile.

But then I broke down the numbers. Thing is, every stock market that you can place is the same as a 2.5% increase in your tax rate. So, to justify a morale building you need the tax rate penalty for a 3% increase to be smaller than the bonus a single morale building provides. And THEN I started to go through the numbers in my head.

Say you run at a 79% tax rate. This is a penalty of -122. But to increase to an 82% tax rate jumps you to around a -158. That means I need to make up 36 points in morale on one tile to justify a morale building. Even a VR center can't do this for populations over 9b.

So you say, they are worthwhile for lower tax rates. Really? OK, say I run at a 69% tax rate. To jump up three percent to a 72% tax rate I need to get 15 points out of a morale building. And look, at 20b a VR center provides a 16% bonus, so building two farms and one morale building lets me set a 72% rate and make more money than two farms, a SM and a 69% tax rate.

But look closer at the numbers. Why are you at a 69% tax rate? Assuming (and I am making this assumption) you can get a native morale bonus of 100%, when are you ever at lower than a 79% rate? At 13b with no morale structures you are operating at 58ish percent morale with a 79% rate. All you need is to be over 40%, cranking up your morale for one week for government votes and offensive war declarations. At 16b you are at 43% with no morale buildings and a 79% rate. Still pretty good, and you are avoiding any possible revolts. Only at 17b and higher does it start to become necessary to move off of the 79% rate, and even then only by a point or two per billion population. And at 17b-20b, two morale buildings will easily take you from a 69% to a 79% tax rate. This is about the only scenario (i.e. range of 17b-20b) where morale buildings work, because you are trading +5% net bonus from two stock markets for +10% net bonus by being able to increase empire wide morale to 79%.

And morale bonus tiles don't help, because you can't set a seperate tax rate for each planet. Unless EVERY colony in my empire had a morale improvement tile, I can't figure that in to what my average planet uses. This is especially true if you are planning on managing 300+ colonies in your game. Micromanagement has to take a back seat at that level, even if you lose (a little) effectiveness. Or I suppose maybe you have endless amounts of time, I don't.

All this means is that overall empire morale bonus dictates population size much more than planet design and morale buildings. Currently, I would probably shoot for just 13b with no morale buildings with Yor, Torians, Terrans, Korx, Thalans and Custom races, 16b with no morale buildings for Drath, Drengin, Altarian, Arcean, Iconian and Korath, and 18b-20b with Krynn. And... it works! I'm testing it now, which was what my opening story was all about.

I still will always research the entertainment line, and early try to get to Zero G, because that gives you an empire bonus of +25, and ultra spices (so +40) and gravity accelerators. But after crunching the numbers I'm not going to be playing with morale buildings anymore. They don't have enough effect, and they take precious tiles, better used on stock markets. Or better used on anything that will actually have an impact on your empire's performance. I had just always used them, because if "felt" right, like I should. The numbers don't lie, however.

Just my choice. Please, no angry emails/responses about how ignorant I am and how your strategy that includes morale buildings is so obviously superior. Play how you like. I'm just describing how I am playing from now on.

29,889 views 51 replies
Reply #26 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Hi!
Also there's the 1bc upkeep cost to Stock Markets. That more-or-less nullifies about half the 5% bonus you get over banks,

Not really. Would be true if your planet would be producing only 20BC revenue. In my games at the time I got SMs my average planet produces ~100BC. 5% of 100 is 5, but the upkeep for a SM takes away only 1 of those 5 I gain with SM.

BR, Iztok
Reply #27 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Hi!
i'm also wondering if just over 60% is enough morale to maintain my political party bonus undera dem. gov't.

In my recent testbed I had federation and only one planet: my HW. When elections happened I had there approval of 43%, but still won them. However I might had some hidden bonuses, as I started the game on the easiest level.

BR, Iztok
Sins of a Solar Empire II
Reply #28 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
In my games at the time I got SMs my average planet produces ~100BC. 5% of 100 is 5


Stock Markets only increase your base revenue. That's 5% of your base revenue, not 5% of all your revenue after you get all the SM bonuses. A 6B population at 50% tax is about 40bc/turn base.
Reply #29 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

Remember also that SMs have a 5% influence bonus, so you're getting a bit of tourism income on top of that extra 5%

Reply #30 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
If you think morale buildings are useless, try being a republic,democracy,or star federation with 40% approval. I think you'll get the picture ...
Reply #31 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

If you think morale buildings are useless, try being a republic,democracy,or star federation with 40% approval. I think you'll get the picture ...



you obviously didn't read the whole thread
Reply #32 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Yeah, and I think I'm going to take back my claim about higher morale effecting score, at least enough to matter. This last weekend I played three games where I purposefully kept my approval at 20-30% all game after about year 2, except for turns where I needed to spike it. Not only did my social score not go down, the huge increase in money led to all of my scores but tech increasing. By just killing my people with tax, I almost broke 100k on a small map.

So, in DA, morale buildings are limited to breed boosters in the very early game. I never build more than entertainment centers (which are cheap) on morale tiles - because the tile is what really provides the bonus.

I guess the bigger question is, what do other players think about this? Should it be fixed or changed? Is it a bug or a design feature? Buildings that are useless distractors aren't necessarily a bad thing, and the morale research line is still very useful.

Comments?

Reply #33 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Comments?


Hard for me to say. I don't normally build morale buildings, but I don't normally build markets, either; and everyone else seems to fill 3/4 of their planets with markets. I guess I'm just weird.
Reply #34 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I think there's some reasonable middle ground. In v1.2 I never built morale buildings because the 5% morale benefit of the stock market. This is obviously not good. Not exactly sure whether it was v1.3 or v1.4 that removed the stock market morale benefit but anyway by v1.4 I used a single farm with no morale buildings on planets PQ8-10 and two farms with two morale buildings (plus as many morale resources I could get) on PQ11 and above. I think v1.4 was a good middle ground, they're not always required but often useful. It does appear that morale buildings have no real benefit in DA. Not much point in having buildings that are merely traps for the unwary.
Reply #35 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Hi!
Comments?

Like you said: a morale building helps with growth and higher taxes. If there's no other means to increase natural morale ability (morale resources to mine, morale "wonders" already taken by others), they should be used if the player wants really high taxes (79%) AND good growth (approval 75%+) on most planets. But in late game with 3+ morale resources mined and most morale "wonders" in posession morale buildings become superfluous. If a player can stand the MM it would end better changing them to Stock Markers.

To sum up in a simple rule of thumb:
. early game - from "useful" to "depends on the situation",
. mid game - "depends",
. late game - from "diminished returns" to "not useful".

BR, iztok
Reply #36 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I have found in my games that a morale rating listed as a red field in the civilization manager makes less money and military and economic projects take extra time ... thats being a good ethical alignment, a republic,democracy, or star federation, and that when I played an evil civilization it seemed to have less effect. But I don't know an exact way to measure this in game. Even looking at what was already posted I cannot say for sure. I would need to have identical worlds with identical improvements, in identical races to be an exact comparison.
Reply #37 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I have to correct myself from the strategy guide:

Here's how things work on planets:

Your population will not go higher than the food production. If your food production is 10 mt/wk then 10 billion people is where your population will cap off at. Your tax income comes from people. The more you have, the more you get. Population increases based on your population growth ability and your planetary approval. TIP: Don't just build farms for the sake of building farms. Only build farms when you need to increase your population cap.
Your influence (ip) determines how far from the planet your sphere of influence will go. The higher it goes, the further it goes. And conversely, when it meets someone else's sphere of influence, they push against each other. You can increase your influence by building things like embassies which you get from Universal Translator.
Your Approval is what % of the population thinks you're doing a good job. It is not as important as you might think. At the start of the game, you're a dictator, so what do you care what the masses think? Other forms of government are available that give you more money, and then you can worry about it. Approval is affected by population (more people, the more demanding they are) and your tax rate. You can increase your approval rate by building entertainment centers.
Reply #38 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I'd like to see them try two things.

1. Have approval rating (for election purposes) be based off a biased average over the time since the last election. Laying off taxes as elections get closer should have some reward (just as it does in RL elections,) but not to the extent it is now where I can run 40% approval all year and then reduce taxes to bring moral up the week before the election, win, and then go straight back to breaking my people's back.

2. Some kind of bonus for having happy people. Not an instant bonus, something that builds over time and rewards you for consecutive turns (maybe years) of above average moral. You would probably need to nerf the Krynn's rediculous 50% morale bonus lest they become even more powerfull.
Reply #39 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I've tried a couple games to look at morale and this whole issue. I observed that as long as you stay out of the red zone your good (except for elections). Whenever you go red for more than 1 turn your population starts to fall, so if you can stay yellow without morale buildings you shouldn't need them - except for score.
Reply #40 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
And morale bonus tiles don't help, because you can't set a seperate tax rate for each planet. Unless EVERY colony in my empire had a morale improvement tile, I can't figure that in to what my average planet uses.


Morale tiles would allow you to increase the population on that planet until it conforms with the general morale in your empire thus circumventing the need for planetary taxrates.
Reply #41 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I guess I just suck at this game then, as I seem to always need morale building in every game I play (DL 1.4). This includes playing with max morale ability and most (if not all as I concentrate on building them) of the morale super projects and trade goods. I honestly don't know what I do that is wrong. If I build a farm I have to build at least 2 morale buildings on that planet...
Reply #42 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
The more you increase your population on each planet the more annoyed each planet gets. Depending on your tax rate and how well your civ is doing in the various category's (military strength, research, economy, ect) your people get more or less annoyed. Don't feel bad, I generally need at least one zero g stadium on most of my planets to keep moral up where I like it, even with a pretty decent racial bonus and a 20+ mining starbase for moral.
Reply #43 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I've had trouble getting the update (though I think I've found instructions for that for when I get home) and I have been plagued by morale problems in all three of the beginner level games I've played. Are these facts related (ie. morale is better in the updates), or am I just missing something?

As it is, I wind up plocking down morale buildings on every planet, some stay at 100% and then some drop to around 40%
Reply #44 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Morale is actually harder in the newer revisions, as there have been a couple of nerfs to morale bonuses...But this has had the affect of just making it logical to turn down the maximum population that you let planets obtain and, instead, go for economic buildings with smaller population caps and thus, the origin of this thread. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a planet that has a fully developed population having a morale ~40%. You really only need the higher approval on planets that need to growth their population and for elections. In final, point mining aspects of the game, I actually let my approval run ~27%.
Reply #45 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Wyndstar: The only other consideration to spend (waste?) time on morale buildings late is because approval effects score. You can get a higher score (in my testing) by taking the income hit and trading a lot of things to make less money. Economy can get you a lot of points, but it feels like at some point the value must be getting square rooted in final score. One of the things that seems to get you a fair amount of points is high approval throughout your game.

Purge: There is absolutely nothing wrong with a planet that has a fully developed population having a morale ~40%. You really only need the higher approval on planets that need to growth their population and for elections. In final, point mining aspects of the game, I actually let my approval run ~27%.

Does low morale affect final game score? I thought morale below 40% causes population to drop.
Reply #46 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I thought morale below 40% causes population to drop.


It does indeed; but the drop happens very slowly, and it is on a planet by planet basis, so you would have to deliberately tank your entire empire for a fair period of time in order for this to have any real impact on your final score.
Reply #47 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
So far as I can tell low morale doesn't directly affect your score, only your population number seems to affect it. I've found that at the end game my population holds steady at around the 27% approval mark...

The way I'm reaching this mark is that every election my population gets a small jump when I move the tax rate down (and consequently the morale goes up). Then after the election the population will shrink slightly until it reaches a balance were it is neither shrinking or growing. There is actually a range of approval where the population holds steady. Typically it seems to run between 27 to 40 percent approval. Mind this is end game where all population growth research is complete and this is an average for 900+ planets. Some planets may be individually going up or down slightly.
Reply #48 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

Typically it seems to run between 27 to 40 percent approval. Mind this is end game where all population growth research is complete and this is an average for 900+ planets. Some planets may be individually going up or down slightly.


Micromanaging 900+ planets along with a corresponding number of ships.

Let me briefly consider this.

...

Reply #49 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Morale Building Improvements: (version 1.7 beta 1)
These are modest, but positioned at a critical spot in the development cycle.
Entertainment Network (the 1st level morale tool) - increased from +5% to +10%.
Multimedia Center (the 2nd level morale tool) - increased from +10% to +15%.
Other morale buildings, colony morale ratings remain the same.


Are these changes significant enough to revisit the "all morale buildings are completely worthless" calculations?
Reply #50 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Hi!
Are these changes significant enough to revisit the "all morale buildings are completely worthless" calculations?

Morale buildings are not completely worthless. Until one has free tiles on a planet, he can use one tile for a morale building, to increase aproval on a planet to breed more population. I do a similar thing when I conquer a planet - the morale building is the last to be converted to a bank or production building or whatever is needed. With the increased efficiency in the DA 1.7 I even may consider building one early in the game on most planets, if my development schedule will allow it.

But using a morale building in late game, when planets are full, and the player has most morale "wonders" and at least one morale resource... This really seems to be a waste of a planet tile, if he doesn't play for the metaverse score.

BR, Iztok