Yeah, if you run it straight from the install CD and do nothing else, it may not have to ever check again. Good luck getting the game updated without having to go through DRM. My problem with the statement is that they say they don't use DRM, but in fact they do. It may not be a connect and activate on install DRM, but if you want to do anything with the game, it is DRM protected. Using a blanket statement like, "We don't use DRM" is frankly a lie. Period.

Also, just because it happens to be an "easy" DRM doesn't make it less of a DRM. If there were no DRM, you could run the game from any PC by simply copying the files. If it wasn't DRM protected, you could re-install windows and not have to re-activate the game or re-install it all over again. DRM uses a hardware identification to protect the execution of the program and this is precisely what this game does. If it used the serial number alone, you could copy it to another PC, and put the serial number into the box when you transferred it. having to activate it because the signature of the hardware doesn't match is way beyond simple copy protection.

Do you even know what DRM is?

DRM stands for Digital Rights Management. It's not some vague concept.

By your definition of DRM, even the earliest shareware programs were "DRM". If you really think you've been screwed or whatever then please, by all means, ask for your money back and go away.

 

Somebody is working very hard to give themselves an ulcer over no reason at all. I found this whole exchange to be sadly amusing,, like watching someone struggle to push open a pull door and blaming the door for being stupid,,, Ahhh, the humanity of it all

yup, kinda entertaining. *hugs* @ everyone from SD

Yes, I know what DRM is. DRM is "technologies used by publishers or copyright owners to control access to or usage of digital data or hardware, and to restrictions associated with a specific instance of a digital work or device." If you read it and apply it to what SD is, it is an exact resemblance. Early shareware used a keycode that you could use at any time to unlock the game. Fourteen years from now when X-company goes under, gets bought out, or drops support for the game you can still play that title with all it's patches without having to ask them permission. Stardock requires that some company grant you access to the game. They are managing the digital rights to the game by requiring that you activate it if it's moved off the hardware that it was originally installed to. That activation comes in to play when the EXE checks your hardware, verifies it with a signature file and approves of your running it. If that's not managing your use, I don't know what is. Once shareware is unlocked, you never have to deal with it again. You have the files, can transfer those files anywhere and they will still work. By placing a hardware control on the application you tie it to a machine and therefore manage the installation. By putting in the CD-key when you install it, your asking the installer to tie that software to the hardware. It's the same method, except your not asking permission over the net. It's still locked to the machine. Correct?

Here, let me give you another example.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Media_DRM
WMA, Windows Media Audio. You rip your CD to your computer. You use WMA. Windows Media places a license file on your computer so you can play that music. You take that WMA file and copy it over to another computer and you can't play the music because that signature doesn't exist. DRM.

GalCiv2, Galactic Civilizations 2. You install that game to your computer. You use your CD-key. Stardock (embedded in the executable, and most like the install) creates a "license file" on your computer tying this program to your machine (and particular windows installation.) You copy the game to another computer and you can't play the game because that signature file doesn't match the hardware or doesn't exist. DRM.

I can't just put in my serial number on the new installation. Nope, I have to go out to the server and ask permission to use my software. I don't understand why none of you see this...

I'll chime in on this one...
Not to be rude Andir, but just give it up. Regardless of right or wrong, the system is what it is. The CEO himself has just told you that if you don't like it take your business elsewhere... it's that easy. Believe me, I understand where you, and a lot of others come from when bringing up various topics that are similar to this one but in all honesty, you are putting far too much emphasis on a battle that just cannot be won.
The game itself is great (except for some issues )and well worth the hassles it requires at times... again, I know about these 'hassles', trust me. Is it worth all of this effort to you? Things are only going to get worse as the years go by so it's best to not sweat it. Like someone above pointed out, you're working towards an ulcer over this one.
Later!

Well, I understand the point of view of Andir. I guess the whole problem lies in the fact that the activation doesn't appear on the TGN GC2 page http://totalgaming.stardock.com/games/?id=GC2GLD but only in the EULA for GC2 (after ypu have bought and downloaded the game). And that EULA points to https://www.stardock.com/StardockActivationInfo.asp for more information on activation.

Sure it is transparent if you are using Stardock Central to install the game. Perharps, it should be  put in the requirement that a one time activation over Internet is required. After all, in the system requirements, it is stated that you need an internet connexion for access to the Metaverse

By Andir's reading of the Wikipage (which also mentions that many people mistake copy protection and other forms of IP protection as DRM) you could classify this forum as  "DRM".  After all, you have to have an Internet connection, you have to have a User name and password.  If you delete your cookies or reinstall Windows you will probably have to reenter that information.

Stardock Central uses what we call SSD. Secure Software Delivery.  In essence, it requires a user to have a valid User ID and password before downloading an update.  It stores a "cookie" (the sig.bin) on the user's machine. If they delete it or reinstall Windows, they may have to regenerate it.  But it has nothing to do with managing your licenses or "digital rights" or what have you. It's just a glorified logon and download manager.

If we're going to make free updates, we have to have some way of knowing that the person dowloading the free update actually has the game legally. 

Trying to expand DRM to cover anything that requires smoe sort of validation trivializes the term. It's like a couple years ago when everyone was labeling anything that used the Internet "spyware". 

But at the end of the day it doesn't matter.  This is the product we make. These are the terms and conditions we provide it under. If someone feels this is unacceptable, then they can choose not to buy it.

It goes beyond a login manager and SSD. It won't let you play the game. I can understand limiting the download of updates and the game, but restricting the use of the game based on the hardware it's installed on to me is in the clear definition of DRM. Stardock central is not the only software to use that sig.bin file. The game itself uses it to check your hardware/windows install and will restrict you from running the game unless you connect to the online service and activate it or you send an email with your game code in clear text to an automated server that generates this file and emails it back to you.

If you are aware of a file on the install disc, I will gladly pay the shipping, get the install disc and use that "activation" program on the disc to put in my serial number and activate my game without connecting to the server. I mean, if the game installs from the disc and sets the hardware ID so that the game will run without connecting to the server, why couldn't you just put in your serial number and have it generate a new hardware ID for it when you copy it over to your new PC or you re-install windows? It still doesn't get around the fact that your using DRM, but it would make me feel more comfortable knowing that if the company goes bankrupt or gets bought out, I can still play the game I bought with all the updates that come with it. From what I have experienced so far, you have to connect to the server either way to activate it and there is no "remote" method of activating the game besides re-installing, even then your not getting all the updates that come with the game (as you mentioned) for free.

The problem I have with the terms is using the phrase, "Stardock and TotalGaming.net don't use DRM" so freely. It's false advertising and I believe it's illegal in most places of the world.

BTW, I can't really tell if I even like the game. I've had no time to really sit down and dig into the thing since I bought it. I've been working and running around with daily activities and trying to get prescriptions filled for my Wisdom teeth removal tomorrow. Maybe I'll have a chance to finally play it in a loopy drugged out state this weekend. Yeah, I bought a game pretty much blindly, based on the fact that I've liked games like it in the past and you marketing it as DRM free (which is why I'm pissed.) As far as it giving me an ulcer, I just want the wording changed or a retraction to the blanket statement. I believe in trust and honesty in a company overall and so far I'm not impressed.

Do you know Frogboy IS Stardock...he is the Owner...the Head Programmer...and he has been totally honest with you in this thread. That is impressive.

I agreee with Frogboy - you are stretching the definition of DRM WAAAAAYYYYY out of the envelope. Star Dock is an download manager and activation tool, not DRM (don't confuse it with Starforce)...and the activation process is a hell of a lot less intrusive than Windows activation...or Symantec Activation...or a host of other software activations... You only need to connect to Star Dock if you want to download an update. The sig.bin is generated when the game is installed...it is a one time thing, and you don't need Star Dock installed to do it...only if you want the updates.

The game will NOT connect to the internet except the very first time you run it if it has not been registered. It will connect to the interent if you choose to play the metaverse...but it is simple enough to disallow it.

If you are that concerned about software on your pc accessing the internet....put a good firewall up...and block it that way. I do. And I can say for a fact my copy of GalCiv 2 only connects to the internet when I tell it to...it does not attempt to connect everytime I start it up - I'd get a flag in my firewall log if it did.

Pirate reporting here. Yarr!

I downloaded the GalCiv2 Gold Edition CD images off a file sharing website, and had no problem running the game without ever entering a serial number of any form. When I installed Stardock Central for the hell of it, and clicked "Cancel" when it asked me for a serial number for my copy of GalCiv2, the game was not disabled. So whatever is going on here, it certainly doesn't satisfy any reasonable functional definition of "DRM".

(Registering my copy now, though, since I think I can be a useful 1.6 beta tester.)

I have to stand by Stardock here. I have absolutely no problem with activation, especially where updates are concerned. Stardock does not wish to support pirated copies with updates, which costs money to do.

Activation is not DRM. It is an Anti-Piracy measure.

Adobe had to go with activation after version 7 of Photoshop due to piracy. Microsoft had to go with activation of Windows, starting with XP, due to the same problem.

I will buy the boxed gold edition for my 64 bit system this month, even though that computer is a ways off from being completed, just to support stardock.

DRM is a scheme thought up by the RIAA and MPAA. If they don't want something played on your computer, then it won't.

My hobby is 3D CG (Poser, Daz Studio, Bryce, Carrara, Hexagon, Amapi 7 Designer, Vue 6 Pro Studio), and this community (aka Poser Community) takes Copyright violations and Piracy (we hate warez) very seriously. Even as a hobby, it takes a lot of work to get 1 frame to look really good. If you animations, that is roughly 30 frames per second.

Artists don't like having their works being ripped off. Even hobbyists. Game programmers are no different.

All I have to say is... WOW   

Definitely.

So let me get this straight. You D/L'ed the game. The activated it via SDC. You copied the files over to your tablet. You can't activate it.
I'm no stardock person, but did you try deleting the sig.bin? Last time I ever put in the code it created a new sig.bin.

~T60

Well, there are very few games in TGN that require an activation and the whole activation process is transparent to the user when installing a TGN game with SDC. And if you aren't aware, Space Rangers 2 has Starforce in the retail version and not in the TGN version.

I think that one must also consider how others systems that offer to download games on your computers are working. Generally, they are far more incovenient than TGN et SDC. And the DRM statement made by TGN is to be compared to what others games downloading services are using as DRM.

BTW, activation the conveniest way Stardock has found to check that you are the legitimate user of your copy. And this check is only made one time per windows installation.

 

I'm actually a lawyer that does work in this area. I have worked on several multimillion dollar lawsuits with EMI dealing with this issue.

By the way, I am not giving legal advice, and I am not offering to represent or currently representing anyone on these forums to the best of my knowledge. Always seek independent legal counsel to determine your exact rights and recourses in your specific jurisdicition under your specific facts. The following is just my opinion based on my experience and training in the laws of the UK and US.

OK, now that we have a basic disclaimer out of the way...



And which countries and under which international trade treaties exactly are you basing this? Stardock is fully within their rights to so advertise, because, point in fact, they don't use DRM. A better case could be built against you for libel because you published that statement in a public and permanent manner. (I'm not saying he is guilty of libel, and I know the law is in flux over whether internet messages should fall under libel or just defamation.) To accuse a corporation in good standing of engaging in knowing illegal activity is a serious allegation.

DRM specifically limits the obligee (purchaser) of a contract for the sale of goods from using the consideration (in this case, the game) on multiple legally owned platforms that the obligee has custody or control over. This is in no way what Stardock is doing. If you purchase the game, you are free to install it on as many computers you have that will run it. You will need an internet connection to get UPDATES, but the original packaging does not guarantee a right to unlimited free upgrades. Even in their licensing agreement (which I read, I'm a law nerd) - they reserve the right to improve the product with or without notice AT THEIR OPTION.

Yes, it requires an internet connection to get the free updates once you have legally purchased the product. But the free updates are not part of the original bargained for exchange. It does NOT need to be listed in the system requirements. The updates are a bonus (Thanks Stardock/Brad/All) done at the discretion of this company.

The updates are high quality and increase the value of the product. They are offered free with the only requirement being that you can only get them through Stardock. Legally, I think the updates are probably a gift, because there is no new consideration required, and you have an offer (through SDC), delivery (through SDC) and acceptance... by you when you get the updates.

To try and reduce this from lawyer speak... there is no DRM, because you CAN use what you bargained for when you bought the game on multiple platforms, you are free to install the game on multiple mediums. The advertising does NOT claim to offer any of the things you are complaining about. That you chose to copy and not to install is your problem, but they made no guarantees or warranties that you would be able to freely copy. They claim you can freely re-download the product after it is registered. This is an accurate claim.



But moving is different than installing, and that is not managing the digital rights. If they forced you to buy a seperate copy for each computer, THAT would be (probably) an example of DRM, even then you need more facts.



And legally they don't have to do this at all. It is a wonderful gift. If they required you to mail order and pay for postage for all updates they STILL wouldn't be violating DRM.

I understand you are frustrated because things aren't working as you hoped. And you have built a cogent argument. But it is not the law. And the facts do not support your conclusions.

Good luck when (if) you finally get around to playing!

Well, this is *bleep* insane! Do you know who you are arguing with, Andir? FROGBOY!

Frogboy is Stardock. He runs the whole thing! If he says it's not DRM, it's not DRM. DRM is when you install 1.0 of a game and it requires you to put in a serial number, credit card number (for MMORPG's) and other private information, or no go. Stardock Central just asks for serial and email address, and only when you update. It does not ask for private informtion in any way. If you're so steamed up about using your email, create a throwaway account.

If you don't want to endure this so-called DRM, don't upgrade! Why are you not listening to this? If you don't want to be bogged down with this stuff, just play 1.0 and get on with it! But if you have to get a serial number, email a nice question to the support people! Is this too much effort for you? Can't you just email instead of whining about it on the forums? It's not helping you, it's not helping us and it lengthens the time taken to solve your problem.

Either just email support, or quit whining and play 1.0. Any of those would be preferable to this situation.

Have you read the top post? It is impossible since he has bough the game through TGN. He has the latest version which requires an activation. That isn't a problem on the computer on which he has downloaded (and installed) the game since SDC will do automatically the activation. But he feels cheated when he found that an activation was required when installing the game on another computer. And all the discussion boils down to that point: is activation DRM or not ?

And the TGN page for GC2 doesn't mention any activation and I don't think that the EULA is displayed during the installation through SDC.

Well said Wyndstar.

Thank you Peace Phoenix. You seem to be the only person that understands (at least partially) what I'm getting at. I just want my just program to work independent of the company. Like I said. If I could activate my current game without connecting to some server that might not be there next week, I'd be happy about the protection on the game. If that utility is available on the CD, I will gladly pay extra to get it.

Also, "The Deleter", if I were the CEO of some company called "5-note records" and I went out of my way to create a play restriction software that enforced a one time play restriction and I continued to state that it's not DRM ... that doesn't make it "not DRM".

And frankly, no offense "Frogboy", but I could care less if you were "King of the World". Your a person, just like me. That doesn't make you a better person or put you in a position over me. (This isn't really directed at you, but to the people that give your position in the company some merit.) Your out to make money and I respect that. What I don't respect is using a form of restriction that is pretty much identical to DRM and outright saying that it's not DRM.

To all the legal jargon, I'm going to try to understand this since I think it supports my argument. Correct me if I'm wrong:

Legalese: "DRM specifically limits the obligee (purchaser) of a contract for the sale of goods from using the consideration (in this case, the game) on multiple legally owned platforms that the obligee has custody or control over."

English: "DRM limits [me] from using the [game] on multiple legally owned [computers] that [I] [own]."

... right? So, how is requiring a remote server connection (that may vanish one day) not limiting? How is it not limiting to say that I can't run my game from another PC while away from home without having to first activate the product that I already purchased and activated.

Also, to another poster that questioned this. If you delete the sig.bin file and move it to another PC, you still have to activate the game to play it. Even if you include the sig.bin file, if it doesn't match the current OS, it won't run. It doesn't activate by simply putting in the serial number. It actually connects to the internet to connect to their server which I assume generates the signature file and sends it back to you. You cannot freely copy the application to another instance of windows or machine and have it run. It won't work (without first getting the electronic "license" to do so.)

Yes. And it also check that the serial id is matching the associated e-mail address to see if it is already registred with another e-mail address. This has generated some activation problem for the french version of GC2 since it seems that some french version boxes have shipped with an already registred serial Id. And patching the french out-of-box version was mandatory due to some localization problems.

As kryo said, Andir can upgrade his purchase to the Download + CD option.

 

But will the shipped CD version require the activation when installing the game?

No.  The CD versions do not require activation, they're just not the latest version.