dont get me wrong before the AI had no clue...but now they won't give up anything. can't we just find a happy medium.

Yeah, I'm sorry, I don't want you to waste time. And I do like overall how the changes have improved the AI. Sometimes I feel that the AI is not taking deals it should... but at the same time overall the new trading approach helps the AI - and depending on your approach to the game that is a very good thing.

Tech trading, when on, used to be a ridiculously easy exploit. Now, you need to be more creative to use it to your advantage. I understand how important time allocation must be for the development team.

Plus, when I WAS trying to trade Phasors V for Phasors II, I was just trying to exploit the situation, and kill two birds with one stone. In this case, the AI with Phasors II I wanted to have better guns, because they were fighting wars I wanted them to win. I had gained Phasors 3,4 and 5 from invasions (I was using missile tech on my ships). I was just hoping to increase the strength of one AI, and at the same time pick up a lower tech so that I wouldn't waste a tech steal on a low level tech I really didn't need. And not trading did kinda work for the AI, I just gave it Phasors V for Xeno Business in the end, because I did want it to have better weapons. Of course, the next turn I took four planets... and stole Phasors II

Now that I'm getting used to it, I'm not finding it as bad I used to. I'm starting to understand what the AI will and will not go for. It is still possible to get some good deals, but at other times you have to be prepared to make some compromises. It could still use some tweaking, but overall it's much better than it was in the vanilla game.

Playing without tech trading is a different game. I’ve found that the AI doesn’t advance nearly as fast technologically since it can’t engage in rampant AI tech trading (if you don’t believe me check your debug.err file – you’ll see). Granted, I haven’t observed much weapons tech being thrown around, but they’ll trade pretty much everything else. Even diplomatically challenged races (Drengin, for instance) can get some pretty sweet deals.

Without tech trading the AI’s seem to follow their own path. For instance, in my latest Painful game with 9 AIs it is 2232 and only the Terran has advanced down the diplomatic tech line to get as far as Alliance. Result? There are no alliances in the game except between me and the Terran, and as a result many fewer reflexive wars. This also means a Diplomatic victory will be extremely difficult since I can’t just gift Alliance to the AI and lock up the game (note - this cripples or at least makes Diplomatic victories much more difficult – it should, therefore, be worth more in the Metaverse with tech trading off). Tech advancement has slowed down. As a side benefit, since the AI wasn’t trading extreme colonization tech with each other (and excluding me – for any price) I had a shot at more extreme conditions planets.

Overall though I have to say that play balance is better. Previously a human player can walk away with the store if each trade is ‘fair’ since, with tech whoring, the human will then get a number of ‘fair’ trades based on the number of AIs – and make out like a bandit. In one pre-patch DA game on a small map as the Super Diplomat Terrans the Krynn gave me 5 planets (on a small map this is almost their whole empire!), all of their tech, and many of their scouts for an economic treaty and some of my tech (documented as an AAR, by the way). Now that, frankly, defies comprehension and screams for a fix. Post patch you can still tech whore to some degree, but your net proceeds will not be nearly as lucrative. The new tech trading is effectively, however, an AI cheat, which is why it seems so unfair.

What I object to is the fact that the AIs give each other such sweetheart deals, or trade techs that they wouldn’t trade to me if I offered them my entire empire. Therefore, I think the better solution is to turn tech trading off.

Hydro

So what level of espionage do you need to reach in order to see what techs they have, and how do you manage to see them? Is there a screen in the diplomacy section where they're listed?

now it seems better for players to sell techs for money instead of trading techs. Use Altarians mighty research skills and set tech rate to slowest to profit from this.

You need to have an espionage rating of at least High or may be Advanced. I'm not sure on which since I've stopped getting espionage altogether. But anyway once you've got a high enough level you can see what they've researched on the Foreign Relations screen under the Report tab. Same place it lists the *whys* of how your relationship is going with them.

Yes, I managed to get the list from the Terrans last night. They don't seem to bother to much with espionage, especially counter-espionage. I had an agent on one of his planets for the longest time. Both he and the Krynn were very slow in responding to it.

As for the information , it seems to me that Stardock could do a better job of organizing that information. It's just one huge blurb of names, making it difficult to make any sense of it.

Oh and I take back what I said about getting used to the tech trading. Later in the game I can't get squat from the AI. I may as well have tech trading turned off at that point for all the good it does me. Yet they're merrily trading amongst each other! It puts the human player at huge disadvantage. I'll be playing with tech trading off from now on and hopefully they'll balance it a bit more in the next patch.

I think there is a bigger problem you are missing though. I am perfectly content to have a trading system where I have to offer five to fifty times the RP value in trade to get something from the AI. It was too easy to take advantage of the AI before. But I want the AI to operate under the same rules when it tries to trade.

I started a Huge Suicidal Abundant all, very fast tech,8 minors. Optimal conditions, that mean all races have something the other races don't have. The AIs regularly offer up one for one trades amongst themselves and are quite prolific. This is no one for one trade that I can make under any circumstances that will be accepted.

My issue is that I want the AIs receiving the one for one offer from their counterparts to treat it exactly the same way they would treat such an offer from me...Which is, to always say "No" unless the pot is sweetened.

This does mean that either the AI needs to be more accepting of trades in general, or you have to teach the AI when it is good to trade ten techs for one tech that is worth only a fraction of the cost of the ten techs...



Some people will think this is sour grapes. It is not. I am winning the game. It is taking a bit longer and it is harder, but that's actually to the plus side. It was too easy before. I am concerned that this is moving the game the way of all previous games...By that I mean the AI has built in advantages that the human player doesn't have, not better play.

Actually the AI treats the player no different then any other player in the game. So they don't give each other better deals then they are willing to give to you. Also remember you can manipulate the tech trading to your favor by simply researching things that you *know* they won't trade to you and then ask for things they will. Instead of researching say Xeno Factory, research Harpoon II and then trade to get Xeno Factory. Sure you may have to do 2 for 1 or pay some BCs but you'll come out ahead in the long run.

I agree that *paragraph* of everything they've researched is a mess to try to read. Hopefully a future QoL update will make it into a simple list. Or even better a list with the techs under their major categories. Kinda like this:

Weapons
Laser I
Laser II
Laser III

Propulsion
Hyper Drive
Ion Drive

etc...

I think the AI is now cheating.

I ran through a bunch of games just to the 1st year to see how bad it was (all gigantic maps on Suicidal).

I couldn't make any trades that weren't completely ridiculous during that first year, but somehow the AI nations are managing to trade? I can't prove they are cheating, but in my opinion they have one rule for trading with me and another rule for trading with each other.

In the end I decided to turn tech trading off. I had no chance of winning a game with tech trading available as what that really meant was tech trading on for everyone else and off for me.

Once I turned tech trading off it was much better.

I don't for a second believe that the AI is using the same system to trade among themselves as it is using to trade with me.

- Livonya

This is simply wrong. The AI regularly makes one for one trades. You can look in the debug.err file in the DA directory and see exactly what trades the AI makes. It ONLY makes one for one trades amongst itself. It even occasionally offers a one for one trade to the player (I have received one in two game years). Obviously some AIs are accepting these one to one offers. I know if I made any of these offers to any major AI they would not accept. I don't think any of the minors would either. These are trades the AI would never accept from a human player.



Livonya,

The trading gets even worse in year two...

I suppose in a sense, it's the ultimate challenge. On higher difficulties, it's definitely tech trading on for the AI and off for you, expect under extremely bad terms, but that isn't the choice you are supposed to be making when you turn tech trading on.

It's BS is what it is. I should have the same chances to make the same trades the AI makes unto itself, yet I don't. This would be fine if the AI kept the techs to themselves and demanded the same from other AI's as it does from me, but it doesn't happen this way. Anymore, tech trading is off for me.

I think you misunderstood what I said. I didn't say that the AI gives special treatment in terms of trading to the other AIs that it won't give the player. All I meant was that the AI offers 1 - 1 trades to the other AIs and to the player using the same rules. Now if the AI won't accept that exact same trade if made by the player with the exact same bonuses to diplomacy and such then this is indeed a bug.

However before you start pounding the keyboard lets think for a second about how the AI determines trades and how difficulty effects this process. Now I cannot speak about anything beyond Tough since I do not like to give the AI extra bonuses. However I know for a fact that above Tough the AI gets all sorts of bonuses mostly to economics but I think also to diplomacy. Now we know that diplomacy plays a role in how the AI evaluates a trade on the board. So if say your diplomacy is 50% and the AI has a bonus of say 300% due to difficulty setting how often do you think it will trade fairly with you?

Now all AIs unless you set otherwise have the same difficulty setting. This means they've all got the same bonuses. Again following this along then in a diplomacy sense they are on equal footing.

I will agree that with the latest tweaks to how the AI handles trades there is the possibility that a bug has cropped in causing it to behave in a manner contrary to what is expected. But I have seen many posts from Frogboy talking about how the AI does not have one set of rules for itself and another set of rules for the player. I'm inclined to believe him.

Maybe there should be a penalty applied to tech whores. If you sell one tech to every race, a rumour should spead talking about what you did. Once the AI gets wind, they would become more reluctant to trade with you, since you have demonstrated that you have offered techs you sold to them in the past to the other races.

Determining when the rumours begin might require some thought. Regardless on what might be decided, the AI should be able to recognize good and reasonable deals, but should also learn when someone is being a tech whore.

It's true that the AI gets diplomacy bonuses on Suicidal...But this is also reflected by the statement about relative diplomatic ability when you go into the trade screen. When you first start the game and go into the trade screen the AI lets you know that you have the comparative diplomatic skills of an uneducated barbarian. And mine is better than most AIs at this point, in fact, I think it is superior to all AIs (not at the right computer)

What I think is really going on here is that the AI has never done it's internal trading the same way as the human (including in DL). Before it was to its disadvantage, now it's to its advantage. What I really want are the same rules.



I absolutely agree with this sentiment! (Although I think design flaw not bug)

I am saying that I am absolutely sure that this is not true right now.

I play at the tough level and in my games my diplomacy level is usually at or near the top. And, I usually play with slow or very slow research rate settings. With the most recent patches however, I have seen my trading ability really take a big, big drop, even with races over which I have "an incredible advantage". I now often can't even get a tech from them that would only cost me one or two weeks research! It makes me think that in setting up a new game, I should move my optional points away from diplomacy and into something else - I don't see how my diplomacy skill could get much worse than it is now after these recent tweaks.

the only race that can do a bit of tech trading right now is the Terrans with the tech rate at slowest and 5 points to diplomacy. In one of my current game on Small with 5 AIs and painful difficulty, I gotten all of their starting tech and more in about 6 months. If I were some other races, I would not have made any trades like that. So basically, tech trading is pretty much exclusive to the Terran now

So you mean tech trading is out of question to all but Terrans because they're the only ones who can whore most of the techs other civs have researched? I have made tech trades in all of my games since the patch and I really feel like I've gained in them. I don't feel utterly disappointed unless AIs push all their techs to me. It's great that AI doesn't trade unless it thinks it's winning in the trade - alas, there are many times when it doesn't understand it's offered a good deal but at least it tries (unlike in DL). I don't want tech trading to be easier, I just want AI to accept deals where it's clearly getting profit (profit != more research points).

tech trading with the Terrans is not the tech whoring like before and it seems much more balanced now. It still has limits though. Even playing Terrans, AIs won't trade colonization techs early. Xeno Biology & medicine also is a taboo, even basic Logistic require a very high cost. For other races, I'd have to trade quite a lot more just to get a lower tech (just like the first post on this topic). So it is really not worth it. In that case, might as well turn tech trading off.

The AIs won't give Economy Treaty early too but Research Treaty are much easier to get early using Terrans. I played with 9 AIs in one game using Terrans and I traded/bought Research Treaty with each AIs (including Korath and Drengin) in about 4-6 months from the game start date. This doesn't happen when I play any other races. So if you want diplomacy to work FOR you in the early and mid games, use Terrans.

I'm a new player, somewhat confused by this thread. To me, it seems like tech trading is pretty rational, with reasonable trades possible for most things, and only a few exceptions where the AI considers a particular tech to be especially vital, usually with good reason. In my current game, for example, the Drengin are the only people who have Planetary Invasion, and it seems quite reasonable that you wouldn't want to give that away carelessly.

Obviously, having good Diplomacy seems important.

The main fault I've noticed is one that helps me. I'm playing on a Medium map with 5 or 6 opponents, and there aren't a lot of worlds to go around. But the AI seems to overvalue, e.g., Barren World Colonization, even though no Barren Worlds exist to be colonized. So I can trade that away for a lot of stuff, with only a vague theoretical benefit to the other side.

It sounds to me like you haven't patched your game. In the patch, the AI won't even look at your Barren Worlds tech, trading it is just not an option. The patch for DA drastically changed the way the AI will deal with you. In many cases it's next to impossible to make any sort of trade and if you do make one, you usually have to give up alot in order to get it. Only rarely now will they make a deal that's balanced, the rest are heavily slanted in their favour. Just look at my original post for an example.

Hmm. I was pretty sure I have it fully patched, but maybe I don't? I thought it got updated when I first installed it, but was a little confused yesterday when I clicked on the Update button, and all it seemed to do was bring up that Stardock control panel window thingy, which didn't have anything obvious (to me) about updating or an indicator that the game did or didn't need a patch....

Also, Has anyone noticed how you can buy dip translators and aphrodisiac for a song (eg aphrodisiac for missile defence?)? Why waste so much resources building it if you can buy it so cheaply. I have raised this in another thread, but no one has responded to it. Thanks.

If you have the 1.5X patch, your game will read as 1.5X2 in the main screen. If you've added the fix patch, then it will read 1.5X3. Also, while in Stardock Central, you can click on the Games icon. This will bring up a list of the purchased games you have installed on your system. Just click on Galactic Civilizations II and you'll see whether there's anything available.