Tech Trading: Is my approach abusing the system?
Is this a problem with DA or with me?
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Ok, first off, most people will probably hate me: I tend to play as a "Technology Broker," a Super Diplomat + Technologist. I try to get Research treaties from as many players as possible, especially minor races. I build up good techs and good allies, then trade techs for $$ with my allies. I can win a "tough" game with this sort of start. I am very happy with how much harder tech trading is in DA 1.5X... it used to be way too easy.
My concern is that the AI is not saavy on multiple trades. My usual strategy is to offer a "trade package" of my techs together, pick which techs I want from the other guy, then adjust the money slider on his side or mine until I get the most of his stuff for the least of mine. I then go through and remove techs from my side one at a time until the dialogue goes from green to red. I end up only selling him what he wants, without the techs he isn't interested in (and won't pay extra for). No problem so far.
Then, you go back for a second round of trading and do the whole thing again. Often once the AI's initial priorities are satisfied, he will "loosen up" and decide he'll pay for techs that he didn't want before. Realisitic, perhaps, but it can be abused, and it is confusing. He just indicated he didn't want that, but now he does...
You can abuse this further. Initially, the AI won't pay more for "worthless preceeding techs." Maybe you had Singularity Driver II and I, Mass Drivers III and II. You sold them Singularity Driver, nto the highest tech you had. In round two, you sell them Singularity Driver II for $550. Then, still on the same turn, sell them Mass Drivers III for $250, then Mass Drivers II for $200. You got $1000 extra, mostly for "worthless preceeding techs!" I can't prove it, but I'd swear you make more money if you trade the low-end tech first, then move up (e.g., MD II, MD III, SD I, SD II).
Possible "fix" for this abuse:
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>>>>> 1) Allow AIs to "bow out" of trading after each round. As of now, an AI can refuse to trade further, but only if you switch to another AI on the diplomacy screen. They ought to be able to "politely excuse themselves." when they have what they want.
By itself, this won't fix the problem, and neither would limit trading to one round per turn (which I strongly oppose). You can always come back next turn, or in a few turns. You expect to be wheeling and dealing over several turns.
>>>>> 2) Develop a different approach to valuing techs. Every tech would be assigned a value based on what the AI needs, if the AI has a better tech, the benefits it would get from that tech, how much money it has, (ok so far), and whether the seller has better techs to offer (new). In effect, the value of a particular row on the tech tree would be "smeared" back from the latest tech over the preceeding ones.
These values would be assigned before trading, and would not change during a turn. Ideally the value of preceeding techs would only go down over time unless circumstances changed dramatically (AI discovers tons of water worlds, AI switches from beam weapons to guns).
If done in a straightforward manner, this would mean:
a) you would get more money if you trade a tech when you get it, less when you have a follow-on tech (makes sense, cutting-edge tech demands a higher price);
if you stole a tech much higher than you previously had, it would be worth more than if you had developed it afresh (because you have no preceeding techs to sell along with it;
c) preceeding techs would no longer be "worthless," which they aren't anyway. Heck, SDIV gies you the Nano Ripper, which is certainly not worthless!
>>>>> 3) Don't allow going back and forth among AIs during trading... once you leave the diplomacy screen after conducting a transaction (and only after doing so), they won't see you anymore. This pervents the AI having to recalculate values (see above).
>>>>> 4) Add an "unpleasantness factor" for refusing to trade your best available tech in a series, depending on how good your relations are with the AI. Whatever bad juju you get for refusing a tech trade. The AI could say something like "I guess we'll take it, but we notice that we aren't good enough allies to warrant Singularity Driver II..."
My concern is that the AI is not saavy on multiple trades. My usual strategy is to offer a "trade package" of my techs together, pick which techs I want from the other guy, then adjust the money slider on his side or mine until I get the most of his stuff for the least of mine. I then go through and remove techs from my side one at a time until the dialogue goes from green to red. I end up only selling him what he wants, without the techs he isn't interested in (and won't pay extra for). No problem so far.
Then, you go back for a second round of trading and do the whole thing again. Often once the AI's initial priorities are satisfied, he will "loosen up" and decide he'll pay for techs that he didn't want before. Realisitic, perhaps, but it can be abused, and it is confusing. He just indicated he didn't want that, but now he does...
You can abuse this further. Initially, the AI won't pay more for "worthless preceeding techs." Maybe you had Singularity Driver II and I, Mass Drivers III and II. You sold them Singularity Driver, nto the highest tech you had. In round two, you sell them Singularity Driver II for $550. Then, still on the same turn, sell them Mass Drivers III for $250, then Mass Drivers II for $200. You got $1000 extra, mostly for "worthless preceeding techs!" I can't prove it, but I'd swear you make more money if you trade the low-end tech first, then move up (e.g., MD II, MD III, SD I, SD II).
Possible "fix" for this abuse:
---------------------------------------------
>>>>> 1) Allow AIs to "bow out" of trading after each round. As of now, an AI can refuse to trade further, but only if you switch to another AI on the diplomacy screen. They ought to be able to "politely excuse themselves." when they have what they want.
By itself, this won't fix the problem, and neither would limit trading to one round per turn (which I strongly oppose). You can always come back next turn, or in a few turns. You expect to be wheeling and dealing over several turns.
>>>>> 2) Develop a different approach to valuing techs. Every tech would be assigned a value based on what the AI needs, if the AI has a better tech, the benefits it would get from that tech, how much money it has, (ok so far), and whether the seller has better techs to offer (new). In effect, the value of a particular row on the tech tree would be "smeared" back from the latest tech over the preceeding ones.
These values would be assigned before trading, and would not change during a turn. Ideally the value of preceeding techs would only go down over time unless circumstances changed dramatically (AI discovers tons of water worlds, AI switches from beam weapons to guns).
If done in a straightforward manner, this would mean:
a) you would get more money if you trade a tech when you get it, less when you have a follow-on tech (makes sense, cutting-edge tech demands a higher price);
if you stole a tech much higher than you previously had, it would be worth more than if you had developed it afresh (because you have no preceeding techs to sell along with it;c) preceeding techs would no longer be "worthless," which they aren't anyway. Heck, SDIV gies you the Nano Ripper, which is certainly not worthless!
>>>>> 3) Don't allow going back and forth among AIs during trading... once you leave the diplomacy screen after conducting a transaction (and only after doing so), they won't see you anymore. This pervents the AI having to recalculate values (see above).
>>>>> 4) Add an "unpleasantness factor" for refusing to trade your best available tech in a series, depending on how good your relations are with the AI. Whatever bad juju you get for refusing a tech trade. The AI could say something like "I guess we'll take it, but we notice that we aren't good enough allies to warrant Singularity Driver II..."
