Tech trade impossible?

I've noticed this too with the 1.50x patch (I play at painful). There are some techs the AIs simply won't trade for: weapons, extreme colonization, and defense. Others come at a ridiculously high price, where I give 20+ turns of research (at a much high research rate, mind you) for a tech I can research myself in 4. And this is with a diplo ability bump, a good number of diplo techs, the diplomatic translator, and feedback that my diplomatic ability is 'incredible'. I've only played one game fully with 1.50x as Yor, so I wasn't sure that it was due to the Isolationist super ability. The AI still seems to be trading tech like crazy, though. Otherwise how could a civ with 3 planets get all of the extreme colonization techs and get them about the same time as the other civs? Next time I’m going to keep better tabs on what tech the AI is getting to see if I can prove AI tech trading for critical techs such as extreme colonization and weapons.

I need to play more games with 1.50x before a trend is established. But if it is true then tech trading is nerfed and it has morphed into what is effectively an AI cheat. The implication is that the Terran Diplo super ability may be significantly degraded, and diplo techs next to worthless.

Tech trading did need some significant balancing to avoid human player abuse. But, if diplo has been changed like is appears then I’m simply going to turn tech trading off.

Hydro

In the flipside, inciting wars seems to be much easier. I'm playing a suicidal game right now with 1.5X and I too was having difficulty adapting because of the new tech trading scheme. I found now the key to survival in suicidal is to have high diplo skills and turn everyone against one another. I'm still decades behind everyone in technology, but now starting to catch up as I'm invading Yor planets. I've managed to get three different races to attack the Yor on my behalf, and now I'm just strolling through with transports.

I never played this way before. I never incited wars because I could stay ahead through tech trading. I'm sure suicidal is still winnable, you just have to adapt to the new rules. I'm sure I'll win this game, though it is by far no way certain yet.

I'm a world developer for a popular MMORPG and I understand balance issues and the difficulty of keeping games challenging without killing the fun factor. Four years of experience has taught me to make adjustments in small increments. Don't add +10 to a creature's Attack Bonus, add +1 and see what that gets you.

Tech trading has been eviscerated.
--------------
Galaxy Medium, Habitables: Uncommon, Painful, Races:5, Me: Terrans

Game's been "razor's edge" nearly all its entire length, only madly scrambling to build enough of a military and diplomacy to keep from being lunched by superior civilizations. Naturally, have all the diplomacy wonders.

While diplomacy is still effective, tech trading is not. It doesn't matter what the other race's attitudes are to you, even at Close they are demanding five planets for Shoelace Tying 101. "Jessuins, working with us, stole all the Altarian's tech". They wouldn't trade me anything unless a planet was involved in the trade. One time I offered up a planet (a fully developed Class 15) just to see its "market value". The answer - 280 BC. Treaties are similarly worthless and in fact its a mistake trading them. Galactic trade items, its only worthwhile to develop them in order to keep them out of the hands of other civilzations, trade value is minimal.

The Krynn, also, seemed particularly difficult. Any more they seem to be the #1 foes to target early. They wiped out the Altarian civ who over 3 times their size and on an equal footing technology-wise. I think their negotiations AI to AI are similarly bolluxed, because they never established a Truce, spending over 100 turns or longer fighting the Altarians. Myself, I've ceased trying to trade with the Krynn at all during any game.

AI's are receiving economic bonuses far exceeding my own, or the AI really is cheating; the vast Altarian empire, then the Krynn, I could literally count the number of trade improvements they had on one hand. Yet somehow they still remained solvent. They did have Econ captials, sometimes more than one if they conquered the planet, but their trade development was about 10% of what I had to do to stay afloat. Same goes for morale improvements; they were rare, usually consoliated on one or two planets, and again I could count the number they had on one hand. I have seen alien leaders get voted out of office, though .

Currently, at Painful and above, there seems little point in playing Terrans. Diplomacy is still effective, but tech trading is badly broken and I'd advise just turning it off. They never cease wanting the blood of your first born for the most minor techs, regardless of:
- Their attitude towards you
- My Diplomacy is "Incredible" compared to theirs
- The fact they are one step way from being conquered
- Whether you're allies or not
- Treaties or no Treaties

I've exclusively played Terrans, but now am having, for the first time, to consider shelving them and playing another race. I hope that in the near future the savaging of tech trading is reduced and its made a viable tactic once again.

I have never played with tech trading off before, in all my days of Galciv. I decided I'm just going to play that way now and have fun with it. It's working.

My last game I just spore rushed everybody on Tiny map, abundant/abundant, Crippling diff, and that was loads of fun. Who cares that I'm at war with everybody--we're not trading anyway.... In fact, I may just do that: default all the race relations to "Alliance" and "At war" at startup.

Whenever someone complains the game is "too easy", they are told to step up the difficulty. So if the game is too hard with the new trading rules... take it down a level. Prior to the patch, I just turned tech trading off because it seemed like a game-breaker - that was playing at Painful.

Now, playing on Tough, I found that I could achieve relatively "even" trades once I had a good stable of diplo techs and was allied to a civ. That seems reasonable to me. I know there are techs that I almost never will trade to the AI - so why shouldn't the AI have techs they won't trade to me?

Stuie_acs, no one was complaining here. I think it's a question of balance and, also, options. When i started playing GCII i played a lot at medium levels enjoying very much every minute. The advantages of the AI were all well proportioned so you could use some of this and that, like some of war, some diplomacy, some influence etc. to gain your victory. I think painful and crippling were very good levels for a rich, maybe not too relaxing and role playing match. Still a strong AI but not enough to oblige you to go only for conquest (at higher levels you can also win in other ways but anyway always through conquest).

I think maybe when i'll be tired of suicidal i'll go back some levels to try something different. But what are going to be my choices? If i'm looking for some tech trading i will find myself playing at normal or tough? I mean, at normal and tough for an hardcore player the AI is very weak and doesn't represent any danger. The fact is that there's not anymore proportion between the strenght of the AI and its ability to trade techs. There's only a line in the middle dividing the possibility of trading from the impossibility to do it.

There a lot of levels in GC so i don't see any problem to soften the trading attitude of the AI. Also i think that, except for the very high levels (where the AI actually doesn't need to trade anything!), the AI being masochistich in not trading needed techs is against the fun. Like being easier to incite a war than to trade nano rippers asking for advanced acquatic world colonization (sorry, this was sarcastic, i never actually tried such a deal. But maybe doesn't really work!).

richard

Well, it's always easier to complain than complement. In fairness, the game had more tension, victories were thrilling, and its probably the best game, interest-wise, that I've had. I still lasted to the very end (Painful), my lone opponent, the Krynn. Diplomacy is still effective. I still did some trading but it was probably ill advised to do so because it was at a huge disadvantage (and I quit doing it entirely in midgame).

Overall, for me, I liked the increased difficulty and other changes. I would just desire the tech trading not throttled back so hard, and, again, a planet = 280 BC shows something clearly wrong.

This patch effectively turned off several of the features of the game. Tech trading is basically gone, the whole concept of hit points and repair is basically obsolete with the new defense, and Suicidal is made impossible without particularly improving the AI. I liked the beta better than this.

Concomittant with that, something weird seems to be going on with the planet values. Playing as Terran, on Tough, with plusses to Diplo, diplo techs and the DiploTranslator, I was basically capable of buying my planets from my foes without sending out any colonization vessels whatsoever. The newly settled hostile environment planets are particularly vulnerable.

It's not ideal for war, since your empire will be spread across the map and far flung, but it's ideal for trade since you can reach everyone and talk to everyone quite quickly. On Tough, tech trade advantage is still quite doable, though, given a hefty Diplo bonus.

Has it always been like this? Can you really buy your colony "rush" just like that?

That's a new one to me. I don't play on Tough, though.

I wouldn't mind tech trading being near impossible if it worked that way across the board - but the AIs seem to trade freely while wanting insanely imbalanced trades from the player.

Like the OP said, this doesn't seem to be a fine tuning, it's a radical shift.

I'm playing without tech trading and I enjoy it a lot more. It's a shame, because I think limited, reasonable tech trading is a good thing. Tech trading in GalCiv has always felt out of control though - there's always some element of cheese - either AIs that easily give up techs, minors that sell everything, mixed with AIs/minors that share tech readily.

Meanwhile for 2-3000bc you can have a civ go to war on another civ, which often drastically affects both civs chance for long term success.

Yeah, I've lost three suicidal games since the new patch, although I was less playing to win and more playing to test the new rules. The game has gotten a lot harder at that level. Tech trading at the highest level seems now to be more of a vehicle of desperation. If there is some tech you absolutely NEED, then maybe it is worth the price.

Of course, in part, I think the update was designed to ruin some of the strategies I posted in response to Brad's question as to how people were beating suicidal. For what its worth, the team seems to have been responsive to addressing my tactics - although that could just be my imagination. I don't have proof they even read my posts on this topic

If tech trading was an exploit before, it is not anymore. The real question is, does it now put the player at a disadvantage? How does the AI ever successfully trade with another AI under the new rules at the higher levels? It seems to be able to...

I agree. I saw the Civ3 and Civ4 guys do exactly the same thing, and I'm disappointed. The devs for both games find out what you do to win the highest difficulties and then they patch the game specifically for that so you can't win; when what we really need is a better game. Like when people were beating Deity on Civ3 using the chop rush. Does Firaxis improve the economy system to tighten up the exploit? No. Do they code the AI to chop rush and counter it? No...they just turn off the chop rush. And that improves the game how??

If you're going to do that, then why don't you just disable Suicidal? That'll fix everything.

IF they adapt the game to player strategies it's ok until they limit the changes to the maximum levels. The effect on medium and low levels is not to make them harder (because they are not harder at all), only to make them flat. I just played some turns at tough and i noted that you can still trade at this level. The problem is that i didn't have any necessity to do it because before the end of the 2nd year i was already the most advanced race (a custom one with no technology bonuses).

Considering the example of star trek, which is a well developed science-fiction model, i think tech trading should be difficult unless you have very good relations or you are allied with someone. Can you imagine romulans or klingons or cardassians sharing technology with each other? On the other hand this is a game and if you want to trade an important discovery you should find a very happy partner or at least one happy to bargain his obselete knowledge for something new.

I also think GC is too weak on tactic to miss tech trading. In fact tech trading becomes very often part of strategy/tactic whenever for example you sacrifice something of yours for that single knowledge that will give you a good advantage in the long run. It's only a question of balance.

richard

Tech trading was too easy to abuse before, IMO. I think in 1.5X it's actually too hard. I suspect the devs are seeking a good balance and just haven't found it yet.

I tend to agree. I did a small test and looked at my debug.err file after a game session. Unfortunatey, I never looked at it prior to the patch.

What I did notice is that there were realtively few tech trades. About 2 in two game years with 6 races.
I did notice however(but can't find it in teh debug file), was that there were a lot of ships flying around my universe that have been traded. The most lethal ships of the Drengin were the Altarian heavy fighters, for example.

This is idiotic. Suicidal was made 'impossible' because the AI is not longer handcuffed by the cheesy diplomatic system that was a huge player cheat and allowed it to made the ai act against its interests. To the degree that the AI now acts in its interests, the AI was improved; a simple, but effective fix.

So you are still able to trade at tough, but the game at that level is somehow more 'flat'?

Tech trading was never an intersting part of the game, simply cheap. This patch put the balance back to where it needed to be at medium levels: micromanagement.

From my own experience tech trading is still possible, but the AI tends to be far more sensible when it comes to trading.

Forget any weapons technology unless the AI is relatively equal or stronger than you, otherwise you just see the "we don't think it's a good idea" message. Even then, don't expect the AI to trade away it's 'latest' tech - you won't get it. It seems the AI prefers to keep a technological edge these days. If you want weapons tech, you're generally looking at two to three levels below the AI's latest.
I'm not sure, but I think it also compares relative levels rather than tech levels, i.e. if you're asking for it's most advanced tech in an area, it's going to want your most advanced tech in another area, even if it's much higher in the tech tree (but then, I guess this is just the AI being sensible). Certainly it's much easier to take the earlier technology than the later, even if just one step below.

I'm not sure it's a case of the trade becoming too hard, but a lack of feedback. You only really see if it's an impossible trade or not, it might be better if you got a different response depending on how 'expensive' the trade would be.

I found that tech trading was quite strange after the patch. To be honest I usually played with tech trading off but wanted to give it a shot again.

In some cases I would have to trade an outrageous amount of techs, planets , gold , my first born child etc etc in order to get the green light. Found this quite silly expecially when you are offering 1 similar tech for another

Toxic world for aquatic for example. You would think that this would be a no brainer for the AI (nope).

Just for laughs one time I tried giving away everything I had. Something like 4 or 5k in coin, 15 techs, about 20 planets, all my ships, influence points etc. Pretty much surrendering and I still did not get the AI to aprove of the trade   
I was also at a much higher diplomacy level and good terms with this particular AI.

One thing I did find out (woohoo) was that the minor races were usually more then happy to do trades with you. Granted sometimes they were rather irrational but I am playing with the full set of minor races.

Gotta love those Snathi!!!

Unfortunately this isn't the case, either. I've seen the AI act against it's own interests in a trade. Recently, at Painful, I was on the losing end of a war with the Krynn. I owned about 3/4 of the galaxy, but since my weaponry & defense tech lagged far behind I saw the writing on the wall. I tried trading but the Krynn were having none of it, which was fine with me, smart of the AI.

Then I offered it every single planet, technology, credit, influence, and ship I had (which all together was considerable). Had it accepted that was Game Over (it didn't).

Possessing an Incredible Diplomatic skill should mean something. I agree the current throttling of trading needs to be harder than it was previously but easier than it is now. For my money, the AI stinginess at Painful (currently) should be the watermark for Suicidal - you can't get anything unless you cough up blood.

My advice for anyone playing this patch at the more difficult levels is #1: Turn off Tech Trading, and #2 Don't play the Terrans.

Previously you could disable trading from the game setup; now its pretty much automatically disabled at Painful and above.

Silly. That is an extreme example that no player in their right mind would do in the first place. Or do I have to spell it out: the AI acts in its own interest now assuming the player is acting in his/hers.

And its incredibly dumb to expect the AI to give equal trades or a 'fair' price. Given circumstances, techs can have variable values, and any benefit for one player is in the end at a disadvantage for another. Any good player knows this.

Do we want the AI to act more like a player or not?

And I seriously doubt the AI is cheating.

Extreme or not, it occurs, and demonstrates there's a problem. Same with the planet going for 280 BC. The AI "assumes" nothing, nor does it particularly act in its own interests - its a set of algorithms designed to initiate specific responses and actions depending on a large number of variables. I'm sure the code is fairly complex and the developers have all kinds of fun tweaking it ( I would! ). This last tweak was a little too much, and that's IMO.



I didn't claim the AI should be "fair" in trade - but it should be affected by the variables I listed earlier (attitude, diplomacy, close to getting conquered, alliances, established treaties). As for cheating, lets say: it was obvious the AI has some benefits in those areas. Of course it needs them.

Lastly, I don't consider this thread "idiotic", nor have I leveled charges of "silliness", "dumb" at anyone, or insinuated someone's a poor player. Try to provide cohesive and sound arguments in the future without resorting to such.

If the changes made please you, revel in them, and have fun! I can tell you the adjustments made to technology trading are being met with broad dissatisfaction. That's fine, too - the old saw about "pleasing all of the people all of the time . . . ."

I agree at the very least that the AI values treaties and planets too poorly, which does hurt its self interest. A treaty is a free bonus for your whole empire, you should want those things. A few planets in your favor can turn the tide to give you a lead, if someone is SO desperate that they are offering a few planets... especially if habitable planets are rare, the AI should realize it should just take the trade and laugh all the way to the bank.

Some things really are worth something. In this case, the AI seems to think nothing is worth much, so it is missing out on opportunities.

Old worthless tech they didn't have, of the New Propulsion Techniques variety, yeah, they shouldn't be interested in paying anything for. Seems like they just decided they didn't want to play anymore, picked up their little AI toys, and went home to play war.