BTW, I do believe in God and in Jesus. However, I believe some idiot King hundreds of years ago threw in the Pagan concept of a firey Hell to scare people to side with God.

I say go ahead and play your video games, but make time for other things also.

(Citizen)Stanley Tarrant

deep breaths dude and cut back on the caffine

all i want is people to think for themselves, not just go this is how it is and my book case and some cunning people who figured out a massive corporate tax dodge agree with it!

a bit of positive freedom rather than the accepted negative freedom! hurrah for wikipedia!

and if all else fails, go find babycage.net and lock up your kids, they'll turn out really weird but at least they'll be safe!

No way!!! 4 Diet Cokes a day!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I do hope I can inject my own viewpoints into this

I find that addiction has become watered down tremendously so it can be used for anything; I honestly can say you can tell anyone has an addiction to whatever.

I also find that we tend to separate things into good and evil in our subconscious, video games tend to fall into evil here so therefore it gets more flak for people when something bad happens or tend to associate bad things with it.

Also I would like to give you some examples: I'm sure you all heard of suicides or murders caused by video games and I'm sure the great majority would soon point out that it was the video game's fault, but I would also like to point out that there have been a case where a mother killed all of her children because she believed that they would go to hell if they grew up and I'm sure you would all say that the mother is just a nut.

Anything can be used for bad as well as good, a few life saving and very useful drugs actually derived from most banned and illegal street drugs, isn't music just another way to express ourselves and instead of saying that the music is just another way to inject messages into our minds maybe we should hear what they're really listening and figure out that there could be a deeper problem to it.

Also I find that people would love to point out their problems all on one thing, video games are just of a couple of targets for their scapegoating.

Also the people who bash about video games really don't understand much about them, they can't see beyond the pictures and violence to learn that there is far more beyond what can be scratched at the surface; a prime example would be GalCiv 2 actually: if my parents walked up to me at anytime and saw me playing they would think I was just wasting my time moving ships and playing with numbers and have no clue while they didn't know I was working on building a massive trade fleet to increase my economy, pondering whether to research defenses or weapons, considering offing the Drengin already by taking over their only planet, pondering how to take down an empire with twice my military value and exploiting the rules to my advantage and countless others.

Well that's all I have to say, if someone could uncover a shard of reason in my cacophonous babble then I would feel accomplished

i would have never thought i'd see this one still going strong.

Religion is the emulation of the adult by the child. Religion is the encystment of past beliefs: mythology, which is guesswork, the hidden assumptions of trust in the universe, those pronouncements which men have made in search of personal power, all of it mingled with shreds of enlightenment. And always the ultimate unspoken commandment is 'Thou shalt not question!' But we question. We break that commandment as a matter of course. The work to which we have set ourselves is the liberating of the imagination, the harnessing of imagination to humankind's deepest sense of creativity.
-The Bene Gesserit Credo, from Children of Dune by Frank Herbert

Yeah, I think the original poster is making a few logical leaps to get to his ultimate conclusion.

First, addiction is something which causes the addict distress. There comes a point where you are being harmed, you realize you are being harmed, you want to stop so you are not being harmed, and yet you can't stop. I know, kind of a clinical definition, but think about what it is saying. Perhaps under this definition a hedonist could never become an addict... perhaps. People who realize that games are ruining their life, and yet still can't stop playing to gain "one more level" need to seek help. These people are, however, exceedingly rare.

Second, not all of life needs to be spent doing something constructive. Or something social. If most of your life is spent doing something social, then a little "me" time is a good thing. We all need a break. We all need to relax.

If your game playing is causing your wife distress, then perhaps you want to stop for her sake. That doesn't make games bad in and of themselves, it means it might be a detriment to your specific relationship. In my experience, guys go for gamer chicks less because the girls appreciate "fake" accomplishments, and more because it is a shared hobby which they can both be happy spending time together doing. Much like outdoorsmen like finding "camper chicks". Or sports nuts like finding "sports chicks".

Games can be both addictive and an anti social activity. Anti-social isn't necessarily a bad thing though. And addicts are really quite rare. The original posters conclusion that he needs to spend more time on the ministry or God sounds like a personal revelation, and not one with a terrible amount of relevance to the rest of us.

I think addiction to something is a convenient method for some people to abdicate self-control. You may feel compelled to play, but if you really want to spend time doing something else then all that's needed is a little willpower. If you find yourself unable to will yourself away from the screen, then that is something you need to work on.

Games are not necessarily for everyone, and even gamers disagree on what is actually fun. I sat and watched my brother play Final Fantasy XII last night and was unimpressed by the boss battle he was engaged in. For me there's not a lot of appeal in fighting something with an insane amount of hitpoints, which regularly knocks out a party member before they've really scratched his hide. It's far far worse than fighting Emerald Weapon and sitting through Knights of the Round repeating over and over again for half an hour. Of course, you don't have to fight everything in that game to win, much like you didn't actually have to beat Emmy to complete FF7.

Oh here is just some additional info, an article posted today on msn health regarding video games can actually be good for you...


Gaming's Health Benefits

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Far from a frivolous waste of time, games, some studies say, can be good for us.
From Forbes.com

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They can increase aggressive behavior, encourage the kind of sedentary lifestyle that causes obesity and even desensitize chronic users to violence.

Medical researchers have given us plenty of reasons to limit the amount of time we spend attached to video game consoles.

In the past couple of years, however, a handful of experts have produced studies showing that some games not only aren't harmful, they might stealthily teach us useful skills in working with technology, improve our vision and even help people manage pain.

One study by psychologists at the University of Rochester found that players actually derive a sense of achievement, freedom and social connectedness from games.

"Video games are not a frivolous expenditure of your time," says Dr. James Rosser Jr., director of Beth Israel Medical Center's Advanced Medical Technology Institute and a gamer since the advent of Pong in the early '70s. "They have an upside if properly utilized."

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Surgical Savvy

Rosser set out to prove there's more to the hobby than fun by looking at the correlation between gaming and the laparoscopic surgical skills of 21 surgical residents and 12 surgeons during a simulated surgery skills course. In laparoscopy, surgeons insert a viewing tube with a camera via a small incision to examine organs on a video monitor. They can insert instruments through other incisions to perform procedures.

The study's results would make any gamer smile.

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Current players made 32% fewer errors, were 24% faster and scored 26% better overall than their nonplayer colleagues, according to the paper published in February's Archives of Surgery. But surgeons who'd played games in the past for more than three hours a week came out on top. They made 37% fewer errors, were 27% faster and scored 42% better overall than those who'd never played.

"That opened up a new door," Rosser says. "We could start training people at a very young age with video games, not just for surgery, but engineering [and] lab scientists doing gene therapy. It can all be positively affected by past video game play."

Not all games are created equal, of course. Perpetual motion games, in which players are constantly making adjustments and have to target certain pathways, work best, Rosser says.

Vision Quest

Beyond the O.R., researchers are finding games have other health benefits.

Another University of Rochester study has shown people who played action video games a few hours a day for a month improved their results in a visual acuity test regularly used in ophthalmology clinics by about 20%. Essentially, gaming may improve your ability to read a standard eye chart.

Ultimate Distraction

Work by Bryan Raudenbush, associate professor of psychology at Wheeling Jesuit University, also suggests that sports and fighting video games can produce a dramatic level of pain distraction.

In effect, the pull that makes it nearly impossible for parents to get their kids to put down a game and come to dinner can be used to take people's minds off pain during physical therapy sessions or dental work. It could also be ideal for chemotherapy patients or other hospital situations.

Raudenbush had participants play video games with a one-handed controller and place their other hands in water circulating at 3 degrees Celsius. Even after controlling for variables such as players' competitiveness, which could cause them to want to keep playing, sports and fighting games kept people distracted and going the longest.

Raudenbush likens the games' effect to that of meditating.

"If your attention is pulled somewhere else, you don't focus on that pain," he says.

So instead of feeling guilty for all those hours you've been logging with your Wii, consider the possible benefits. Rosser thinks research will show many more in the future.

"This is only the beginning," he says.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

They are just mainly talking about console games. The thing is, computer games tend to be much deeper, as in GalCiv2. The big strategy games (galciv2, civ4 for example)make you think and certainly computer games as more educational. An example is that new game "Making History the calm & the storm". It is a ww2 strategy game similar to hearts of iron and it is being used in classrooms.

I couldn't agree with you more Jythier. Thats why I am cutting back on games and focusing on other stuff like working out. But lol! i could imagine you playing halo on multiplayer and preaching to the guy you just fragged!!!   

Judging by the replies and interaaction generated by the OP, I think we can at least say that computer games *may* be a catalyst for community and social interaction!

Many good points have been made, but let me speak to the OP regarding his concern for balancing "fun" with the need for ministry. I am a pastor of a very active church, and have given my life to serve Christ and my fellow man. I also have a somewhat "obsessive" personality, in that I really get into things that I enjoy. One of those things is playing strategy games. Before PC games, I would play the Avalon Hill strategy board games (anyone here remember them?) If I couldn't find a partner, I would play them "solitaire!" Thankfully, I found a pastor friend who shared my love of these games.

Anyway, I do not believe that fun and relaxation are in conflict with fulfilling one's call and leading a productive life. In fact, I would argue that such relaxation, in proper balance, makes one more productive overall. Didn't the Lord himself set the principle for us in the Creation, where we are told that He "rested" on the 7th day? And even our Lord Jesus, we are told, often led His disciples to "come apart to a quiet place" away from the demands of their ministry. (As one older pastor once advised me, "You need to 'come apart' to relax, or you will 'fall apart.')

I love my life's work. In fact, I would say that I have "fun" 24/7! But sometimes I come home from a stressful day of dealing with people's pain and grief and confusion and weakness and ignorance and whatever, and I say to my wife "I've got to go blow something up!" ... and she knows what that means. I head to my PC and take on the Drengin hoards!

Despite the shrill and superficial responses of a few in this thread ("Methinks the lady doth protest too much!"), I admire your concern to find balance and proper focus in your life, and your courage in putting it out in such a public forum. I hope that what I have said can be counted with the many thoughtful and helpful replies you have already received.

BTW, do you always play as "Good"? I try to, but sometimes ...

Not all religions are based upon works righteousness. And even non-religious philosophies can create standards that are too lofty. I think it's a shame a lot of people are blaming "religion" for problems that have to do with individual beliefs rather than religion in general.

And wow, you people really went off on the religion thing. I'm quite surprised many of you think you have it all figured out. One thing I've learned, even in my own religion, is that not everything is as simple as it seems.



Alas, many non-religious beliefs (for example, the origin of species) are this way. Question "science" and you'll receive as much ridicule (if not more) than if you question a very religious person. I personally don't see the difference between a religious person and a non-religious person on this matter.

As far as my personal opinion of video games: As with everything else, do it in moderation and just don't let it get out of control. Personally, I'd rather spend an hour doing something interactive than spending an hour watching TV.

whoa (or here he goes again?)

science is always getting questioned, find me one person who says "know what guys that cloning and GM is a fantastic idea, roll it out and we can all chow down right now"

or maybe when hawkings says "errr maybe my idea was a bit wrong" you can see theroy being revised and updated and challenged because it is VITAL TO HUMAN SURVIVAL THAT PEOPLE STOP CLINGING TO THIER CRADELS, PRENTENDING THEY'LL LIVE FOREVER AND MOVE FORWARD!!!!!! folks your gonna snuff it and the only way you'll live on is if you do something hstoric and get remembered for it. nobody, nobody is gona be sitting on a cloud playing a harp for the rest of eternity.

the whole point with science is that it is vital to question it and develop it to move on. All the sciences, look at the mess in Russia and iraq cause wall street and the us executive didn't question thier 30 years out of date economic theory, my science when will they get "shock therapy" is a disaster find a better solution!

find me a religious who says "you know what we need to strip stuff out the bible and try again, revise the lot cause its not really working"

not gonna happen

I can see the challenge to darwin, its a theroy, i get it, but its a sensible theroy, better than "we got knocked togethoer by a random alien watch maker" but our understanding is not perfect. A lack of perfect understanding does not preclude it form being true. (depressingly this statement could go either way)

what i cannot abide is folk telling me the world is 6 thousand years old? what is that about? have you never seen jurassic park? land before time? seriously if you think your god runs round with a shovel burying things and muttering "now we'll see who believes in me" you need to get down the shrink pronto!

...... i should probably go lay down for a bit now? yes? okay.

@Shamgar (Reply #86)

I agree with what you wrote wholeheartedly.

As a Christian and a gamer, I find that some ask me how I justify my gaming habits. I used to make arguments based on the social aspects of multiplayer, but I think it goes further than that. Friendships are generally based on common values and/or common interests. If all of your interests revolve around Christianity, how are you going to make friends with those you want to reach out to?

maddybadger: Well, I'm not very convinced by emotional arguments, hyperboles, and using Hollywood movies as a basis for science. Furthermore, I doubt the moderators want a lengthly discussion on religion, so I'm not going to pursue the matter further. I've said what I think, and I stand by it.

Isn't the whole point of science to constantly question things. The theory of Evolution has been improved and modified thousands of times since Darwin first conceived the idea, as has the theory of Relativity and just about any other scientific theory.

Anyhoo I'm still undecided about games, on the one hand they're addictive and distracting, but on the other hand they're a great escape when things are going bad. I know people say it's better to deal with issues head on rather than find something to distract you from them, but often you just need a couple of weeks away from the real world and the problems you had suddenly seem far less critical and much easier to cope with.

I think the main problem is when games become your world rather than just an escape from it, if your job as main tank is more important than your real job then it's time to quit. I've only really got to this stage once before and that was in the game World of Warcraft. It's the first and last MMO I'll ever play, MMOs are to games what Heroin is to drugs.

Um, who's saying the world is 6,000 years old?

Please teach me how to pull information out of thin air.

Traditional Christians say the world is only 6,000 years old. Thats what the bible implies. The bible also says homosexuals are an abomination to be killed, but then murder is a sin. Also, God supposedly doesn't sin according to the bible and he can't allow sin into heaven, but the bible is riddled with His wrath and destruction such as when he supposedly created the floods and spared Noaa's ark. Also, God is sinless, yet he will ultimately burn over half of all his own creations in eternal hellfire because they didn't put their trust in Jesus.

To me, traditional christianity defies all reason and logic (which God created me with did he not??), and it makes more sense to me if someone just told me they could jump 50 feet into the air.

Religion should be about god, not whatever lifestyle choices you make.

If there is a god worthy of the name it knows everyone and everything inside out. You can't justify yourself to such a being, you can only be yourself.

You can't talk about "what god wants me to do".

Well this thread has spiraled out of control

No one here knows for a "fact" what is going to happen when they die. Whether it is Heaven or Hell, or ceasing to exist. You won't know until your dead so we shouldn't spend our lives worrying about it, or trying to convince other people to believe what we believe. I hate it when people judge others based on their beliefs. God is the only one (in my opinion) who can pass out judgement of that nature. Actions and how you live your life is what is important.

I don't know what is in store for me when I die. I hope (you could call it faith) that it is Heaven and not nothingness. But I choose to live me life on earth how I feel is best and not focusing on making it into Heaven or helping others get to Heaven.

God knows what's truly in all of our hearts, minds, and souls. If there is an afterlife, then in my opinion that is what determines what happens to us. It doesn't matter what you believe in, only the person you are and how you live your life.

So, apparently you apply your own morals to the Bible and use that to judge it for yourself. This assumes, of course, that your morals are an adequate gauge for measuring the morality of the Bible. The biggest problem here isn't that the Bible is a bad book - the problem is that it teaches a different philosophy than you do, and you are uncomfortable with the philosophy it teaches.

This is also an appeal to outrage - you hope that by only looking at the "worst" parts of the Bible, you can discredit the religion as a whole.



So far, you've barely shown that you understand Christianity, other than a common stereotype. Your stereotype and poor understanding of Christianity are the only things that defy reason and logic.

You're quite right; video games are violent and anti-social.

That's what I like about them.

Being able to interact with other people (imaginary or otherwise) largely on the basis that I have several horribly be-weaponed starships helps me control my urge to interact with the people I ACTUALLY work with using a powerful battery-powered circular saw.

Mind you, I laughed like a hyena when I saw this

http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2007/03/26

Uh, that's a huge and unsupported assumption. I like being on my own. In fact I need to spend a lot of time on my own. I get pretty stressed if I don't get at least 1 or 2 evenings a week to myself, and I prefer more.

What would you have me do meanwhile, stare at the wall?

I have been a game addict all my life... and I'm still enjoying it