Streamlining a tech tree

Hi!
I read about streamlining the tech tree in DA, but after seing it, I'm not impressed. The "compressed" techs are nice (better "view at a glance"), but one still has to research all of them to get to the next tech level. Couldn't we have a tech tree, that has the main line, where the break-through technologies are researched, and "sub branches", where those technologies are improved. Like:


psyonic beam
/
beam ---> lasers --------------> plasma weapons -----------> disruptors ------------> ...
weapons \ \ \
smaller smaller smaller
\ \ \
cheaper and smaller ... ...
\
smaller
\
cheaper and smaller
\
cheaper and smaller



The research costs for a whole sub-branch should be smaller than the cost for the next level. So researching (numbers are arbitrary):
- Basic Lasers should cost 300 SP, giving bLaser size 11, costs 30;
. Smaller Laser sLaser2 should cost 100 SP, giving -1 size to basic Laser;
. Cheaper and smaller Laser csLaser2 should cost 100 SP, giving -4 costs and -2 size;
. Smaller Laser sLaser3 should cost 150 SP, giving -3 size;
. Cheaper and smaller Laser csLaser4 should cost 150 SP, giving -8 costs and -4 size;
. Cheaper and smaller Laser csLaser5 should cost 200 SP, giving -12 costs and -5 size;

- Basic Plasma weapons should cost 900 SP, giving bPlasma size 14, costs 40.
. Smaller Plasma sPlasma2 should cost 300 SP, giving -2 size to basic Plasma;
. Etc...

After researching Basic Lasers one could go straight after Plasma weapons, or research some or all of the laser sub-branch. He could pursue either goal, but if he'd go straight for Plasma weapons, he wouldn't be able to build in that time as good warships as his opponent, who'd get to the third level (-4 costs, -2 size) and would start building with that tech ships for an attack.

At the end of each research path he could put on a medium hull with 44 spaces either:
- 2 basic Plasma for 28 space and 80 BC, one engine or (maybe) two defenses, or
- 5 csLasers5 for 30 space and 90 BC, one engine or one defense.

Both paths would give similar results. The "improved weapons" path would give results earlier, allowing faster attack or better defense, but would be a dead end for further improvements. The "new weapons" path would be slower, thus more vulnerable, but would give more benefits later, when it's improved versions would come into play.

My 2 cents. Comments welcome!

BR, Iztok




23,511 views 17 replies
Reply #1 Top
My main gripe about tech tree are the description of technologies which are funny yes but are not fit for the atmosphere of this game.Science fiction description would have been a lot better for game enjoyment.
Reply #2 Top
I think it would be very hard to balance this kind of tech-tree, but i like it!
Well, I think it would be more balanced-out if all existing weapons on the ships are upgraded instantly when you research the technology (laser 1 to laser 2 etc. but never laser to plasma) and if you want to only add more weaponary to your ship via upgrading it, it would cost very little money (if laser 3 costs 40, than you would pay something like 44 to add it to the ship, 10% more)...
Reply #3 Top
Nice concept, but I'm not sure how it would work in practice. Unless (see exception below) the the research costs were perfectly balanced most players would figure out the best new weapons vs. enhancements tech path and follow it every time. Then it wouldn't be a real choice. Because of the way the AI chooses new tech paths this would end up working to the player's advantage and the AI's detrement.

The other effect it would have is to let players catch up really quickly in weapons areas they had previosly ignored. I don't know if this is a good thing or not, but again I think that it would end up working to the player's advantage and to the AI's detrement.
Reply #4 Top

My main gripe about tech tree are the description of technologies which are funny yes but are not fit for the atmosphere of this game.Science fiction description would have been a lot better for game enjoyment.


Seconded. I don't find this childish humor in GalCiv2 the least bit amusing. It'd be so much more immersive if these silly texts didn't ruin my illusion of running an empire every five minutes.
Reply #5 Top
Couldn't someone make a mod that changes the tech description?

(Though I personally like it )
Reply #6 Top
Seconded. I don't find this childish humor in GalCiv2 the least bit amusing. It'd be so much more immersive if these silly texts didn't ruin my illusion of running an empire every five minutes.


Thirded   
Yep, not funny at all, the little robot is also somewhat childish. Somehow I don't imagine a robot using that kind of language (W00t, and the like).
Good to know I'm not the only one with that opinion.
Reply #7 Top
Nay!
I love the humor on the game. The humor in the game makes me smile, since almost all of it is in reference to some other piece of sci-fi. It also has the effect of reminding me that this was really a game made by people... Not just pumped out of a corporate machine. In short, it gives it character. If you don't like the character of the game, that's fine, you are entitled to your opinion, the same as I am entitled to mine.

I do like the idea of the way the OP has the tech tree setup. I think that it would be interesting to play that way. Although I can see the pro's and con's of such a system. Personally, I think a setup like that would work much better in a game designed for online play.
Reply #8 Top
What's this crap about the funny tech tree descriptions? It a game! It's not supposed to be serious. The tech tree in an of itself has some serious flaws, It would a while but the tech tree could be modded to fit the downward-flowing version. The problem is the best choice would always be to research to the end of the weapon version and then research down from there. I think the point of having the techs advance through laser 1, 2, 3 and so on is to simulate the natural development and refinement of existing technology, before jumping ahead to the next manifestation of technology.
Reply #9 Top
Nay!
I love the humor on the game. The humor in the game makes me smile, since almost all of it is in reference to some other piece of sci-fi. It also has the effect of reminding me that this was really a game made by people... Not just pumped out of a corporate machine. In short, it gives it character. If you don't like the character of the game, that's fine, you are entitled to your opinion, the same as I am entitled to mine.


i also like the humor. some of it is childish, okay. but so is playing video games in the first place.

as far as the point about the tech tree made by the OP, i disagree. i'm not let down by the tech tree, as it's exactly what i was expecting (and does look very nice). i think some more branching the way you described might not be a bad thing, but as it is i think it'd be too difficult to balance, and also hard for the AI to understand. i think a few more extra weapons similar to the nano ripper would be interesting, but i like the tech tree as it is for the most part.
Reply #10 Top
How many times do you force yourself to re-read them? I mean after the first few times, which I'll admit made me laugh causing me to appreciate their humor, I hadn't a need too keep reading them over again. I just see that I gained a new toy to play around with, and move on to researching the next.

I can appreciate the mirth, it's refreshing.
Reply #11 Top
Frogboy's humor is part of the game (always has been).
Reply #12 Top
Tbh, in hindsight I think Stardock shot themselves in the foot using the word 'streamlined'. Most people took that to mean a functional re-design rather than the facelift which was intended. It was meant to look better/be easier to read, it is.

I think that the OP tech tree would substantially alter the way the game works, and tbh I'm not sure it would open up strategies rather than lead to an optimal path. I reckon most of the time players would ramp through the lower branches quickly with no improvements until they hit a level where its worth developing the banch a little due to the next level being prohibitively expensive. The AI would just be confused by too many variables.

The other effect it would have is to let players catch up really quickly in weapons areas they had previosly ignored. I don't know if this is a good thing or not, but again I think that it would end up working to the player's advantage and to the AI's detrement


You are meant to be penalised for trying to switch gears on your technology, it's done to try and make you work with what you've got or to work youy diplomatic skills to catch up. Over specialisation has a price, you can't be best at all things. Plus you can rapidly switch weapon/defence strategies far faster thanm the AI can compensate for so the easier it is to do then the easier it is to win.

I like the humour, but I mostly skip reading the descriptions unless I've forgotten what that tech does. And wouldn't be GalCiv without a bit a nod to cheesy sci-fi.
Reply #13 Top
I don't really read the text with the new technologies, I'm usually to anxious to put it to use.

I do like the humor in the dialogs, though. After the Drengin declared an unprovoked war and i beat them back, the dialog was more like "i think we made a mistake, can't you take a joke". i liked the groveling

My current game the Kryyn (spell check) declared war on me by stated that it was "for the good of all that i be exterminated" or something like that.

About the topic...

I think the tech tree is just fine as is. It makes more sence rather than having you scientist learn ablut lasers and move right along to plasma weapons. the technology builds on itself, so after studing all about lasers the discover plasma weapons. i think people are just looking for a fast track to better weapons.
Reply #14 Top
Hmm, why would you stop researching lasers after learning about plasma?! There's no such thing as studying all about lasers. Besides, plasma studies don't necessarily have to be related to lasers.
Reply #15 Top
Tech trading I can't say much about - I always turn it off. Not just to keep the AI from trading amongst themselves, but to give myself a more interesting game. I know that if I don't get a tech through research, I will not get it, period. So if I need something, I usually have sacrifices to make. But being Terran... ugh. I don't know if diplomacy is worth a whole lot if you can't trade techs. I mean, you get a relationship boost so people hate you less I think. And you can probably get treaties easier, which is great if you want an alliance victory. But I'd definitely try a game or two with tech trading on if you really dig diplomacy. My gaming style doesn't work that way (for now), but I imagine you can make a great game of doing minimal research and just trading the hell out of everything to keep up in the tech race.

Now onto the bigger issue here. GalCiv without the humor? Do we want Stardock to go all Sierra on us? Those guys used to have wit and fun in their games - I remember getting Quest for Glory 4 with the special speech addition and reading the FAQ about how some of the voice actors ad-libbed bits because they got carried away, and yeah, some of the ad-libbing was cheesy and "broke the immersion", but it was human and often funnier than the source text.

Then Sierra's adventure games sorta dried up, and there toward the end their games just felt like something cranked out to wring the last few dollars out of a dying franchise (I'm thinking QfG5 and that last King's Quest RPG game in particular)... their newer games just had that lovely "sanitized" corporatey feel.

Or New World Computing before and after that genius JVC sold out to 3D0. Might and Magic 4 and 5 were awesome and chalked full of humor and immersion-breakers. "Smile! There's a camera behind your monitor!" was a response from one NPC in the game. Ooh, or the "Banana of Love" giving 10 days of stat boosts with the effect "In Love", then one day of a HUGE stat penalty with the effect "Heartbroken". I always thought that was hilarious.... Might and Magic 6 held on to a little of that, but just barely. And 7 ... well, I don't remember much humor at all there. I loved M&M 7, but it had absolutely none of the charm of 4 and 5.

I have nothing against a more serious game - I often love them - but I will never complain when the company is willing to inject a little humanity into the game instead of sticking to a strict "feel".

That said, I wouldn't be at all unhappy to see a mod that changed all the text to be more immersive.
Reply #16 Top
I like the visual idea - meaning not having ethical techs messing things up as they are now and I, II, III etc. building down instead of cramping it together.
For game effect it would be useless to research lasers beyond LaserI if plasma weapon is unlocked at the first step.

I think the main flaw in the tech tree system as it is (if I should put on my critics hat and be mean) is that you cannot have multiple tech requirements for one tech. I have to think pretty creatively to ethical tech be key to all the multiple-requirement techs I would want - when TotA is out and I have the time to mod.

The silliness of the game cant spoil my day and doesnt make it a blast - it is a ok laugh the first few time.
Reply #17 Top
I think the main flaw in the tech tree system as it is (if I should put on my critics hat and be mean) is that you cannot have multiple tech requirements for one tech.
End of quote


Yes, you can. Both of the prerequisite techs will specify that they unlock the specified tech, and you actually do need both of them to unlock it; the single problem is that tech a will not inform you that you also need tech b to unlock tech c and vice versa.

I've heard at least one other person say that the game only looks at one of them, but in my experience with DA 1.80g, it takes both of them into consideration and will not let you go forward and research your tech c until you have researched all of the prerequisites, however many that may be.

However, getting the tree to "flow" the way it does now with multiple prerequisite techs, particularly if they're in different branches, would be a nightmare.

I like the idea in the OP, but I have to agree that it doesn't really work. The best way to "fix" it, as it were, would be with multiple prerequisite techs (or so it seems), possibly involving miniaturization as well, but to be honest I haven't given that much thought as of yet.