Not that this got anything to do with Vista but humans are extremely violent by nature, its just that the average joe isnt aware of this since they werent around during the first and second war where millions after millions of people were slaughtered. You dont even have to go so far back, just look at the iraq civil war. Estimated 700.000 causalties so far and its far from over. It always amused me so when humans are almost always portrayed to be diplomatic and peaceloving in games/series when compared to other fictional races.

I think just about EVERYONE knows that humans are violent deep down. The difference between humans and Drengins is that Drengins are more "expressive". But seriously, I don't think mankind will ever change their ways. For the most part, I think we are careless.

I tried the Beta only a month or 2 ago and to cut a long story short, it was useless.
It would not let me run any of my programs I need for work, and its a resource hog.

Oh, and the Sims 2 (the biggest selling global PC game) doesnt run on it. Anyone guess that MAXIS are going to release all their old Sims 2 titles for Vista?

All the negative responses here are valid and personally, rather than spend any more cash on upgrading my PC, Im going MAC.

Citizen uglycow (Reply #47):
I beta tested Vista, but I did not get all the info... or maybe I did receive it and ignored because it didn't affect me or maybe I ignored some of the info because MS sent a lot of newsletters and emails.
Regardless, if MS do attempt to lease Windows it will backfire to them with negative PR and possibly class action suits against them.
IT IS A BAD IDEA by definition and if EXECUTED IT WILL BE THE WORST IDEA OF THE CENTURY.
Not to offend bean counters but that sounds like a typical bean counter idea.

---

Citizen James Bond 007 (Reply #99):
Lets discuss your statements:

1) "I guess you have not read some of the many problems encountered by people who have problems related to WGA (in Windows XP). And the problems are not because their Windows is pirated. At least some of them are related to WGA wrongly labelling legitimate Windows as pirated."

Ok, I wasn't implying that nobody got a problem with WGA (legitimate user or not). On a OS installed on a considerably large base with different configurations (hardware and software) with different classes of users making changes at different levels, spyware, viruses, worms, bad installers and uninstallers, and so on, a piece of software is BOUND to fail sometime.
There is much hype on news telling the troubles of WGA (or any related technology), but hey, when was the last time you got news about WGA working fine (Just answer yourself: Which of the following will make a news headline: More than 50% of the world population is ok OR 20 bystanders killed by crossfire)

2) About the number of cycles checking for piracy... do you have legitimate objective proof? or it is just a plain complaint about "big brother spying on you"?.
I doubt real spy tactics are hidden inside the system integrity check (Now why LSSAS.EXE changed? Piracy, Virus?). And regardless on how you feel, the EULA forbids MS to collect personal information gathered through activation (the only time you link a license to an end user entity).
If MS does collect personal information by using "spyware software components"/system integrity checks/whatever they violate their own EULA and if they attempt to use that illegally obtained information, any lawyer will be happy to get their day in court against MS.

I must say that for years MS was too permisive with piracy (Does anyone remember the optional "enter the registration code" procedure on Win 3.1X?). Now they are taking more active actions against piracy. Can you blame them?

It is understandable that most people feel that MS is violating their rights, and that may be true. But why are they doing that? You can say shareholders, copyright, profits, ... all true, at the end all of this is happening because LOTS of people violated MS rights TOO MANY TIMES. MS may be a multi billion dollar corp, but they still have rights and they are entitled to defend them, within the law of course.

However this change from MS (et al) happened TOO LATE and is bound to FAIL because people got used to get free goods and no matter how sophisticated a security system is, someone WILL find a way to circunvent every security measure (for fun or for profit). It is not economically feasible to hunt down each and every unlicensed user.

Now, the real solution IMHO is not feasible because of the shareholders: Making software CHEAP, DROPPING the verification/validation schemes and giving users REAL benefits (No lame extra solitaires/demos available for download). SD does good software, with almost no verification scheme and gives LOTS of benefits to their users, that proves that SD is in the right track.

With cheap software more people WILL buy it, and with fewer validation schemes (or none) less complaints about the product will be raised AND MAYBE people will start talking about WHAT THE SOFTWARE IS AND WHAT IT DOES RIGHT OR WRONG and not because COMPANY POLICY.

In MS' case they are doing it worse by allowing illegitimate users to 'upgrade' their software for a minimum price, benefiting pirates more than legitimate users (who pay the software at full price). Using a computer at a cyber coffee I found out that upgrading a pirated Office XP suite costs about 30% of the full product price (And maybe the price is dropping now that 2007 is out).

3) I DO LIKE VISTA, but I WILL NOT UPGRADE FOR THE TIME BEING. And having your opinion shared by others means NOTHING TO ME. I dont care if a billion people think it is a good idea to jump over a cliff I'm still not doing it.

4) About your money, thats up to you. No need to issue threats against SD.

---

Citizen: Sevenhertz (Reply #102):

The Sims 2 and lots of 'recent games' DID NOT RUN on Vista Beta or Vista RC and will not run on Vista at all unless new Video Drivers (and sometimes sound drivers) are released.
About Vista being a resource hog, my experience was the opposite, and my computer specs are even lower than yours (My computer does not meet The Sims 2' minimum requirements)
You are entitled to feel that Beta 2 was useless, but remember a Beta is not a finalized product and it is not a good benchmark to test compatibility with software.

"All the negative responses here are valid", there is not a single bit of truth on that statement without proof and your expirence hardly qualifies as proof. You tested a Beta, not Vista. Its like saying "Hey that movie is lame because it has a bad teaser".

---

OK PEOPLE LETS TALK ABOUT THE REAL TOPIC: "IS VISTA GOOD FOR GAMING?"

"All the negative responses here are valid", there is not a single bit of truth on that statement without proof and your expirence hardly qualifies as proof. You tested a Beta, not Vista. Its like saying "Hey that movie is lame because it has a bad teaser". OK PEOPLE LETS TALK ABOUT THE REAL TOPIC: "IS VISTA GOOD FOR GAMING?"

jmontesi4, there is proof, and not just through my experience with the Beta, but with the full product.
So who are you to decide what everyone has said on here is lies?
And where is your proof? Most of what people have said here are actual issues. Not hearsay or lies.

I work in the software business (not in a store, in a SOFTWARE COMPANY) so by all accounts, my opinion is an informed one and an educated one, and I do know what I'm talking about. Vista sucks. It may not suck as much in 12 months time, but it does suck.
For a lot of people it means a lot of incompatibility issues, extra expense, performance issues and much more.
The worst facet of Vista, and the MS rationale in general is "You must do things our way, not your way".

Oh and by the way, let people say what they think.
It's called freedom of speech, and since we are still living (just about) in a democracy, its a normal thing. Heck, you disagreed with my opinion, and I can disagree with yours. Hopefully if we have IQ's higher than a dog and a modicum of magnanimity we should be just fine & dandy.

Just for consolation: 90% (or even more) of the people complaining here, will, almost certainly within the next 12 to 18 months HAVE to buy Vista, because the software we all use will eventually not be supported in XP. So rest easy, Bill will get us on board one way or the other.


So is Vista good for gaming?
No. I don't think it is. Yet.

Due such Vista "features" as need to reactivate every 3 months, intentional "destroying" HD resolutions video quality if non HDCP complient hardware and software used and license limitation that you can't use it on your computer after upgrade and many many others ...

I stay with XP ...
May be not forever, I am sure in a year - year and half there will be enough programs "Vista only" that will force me to move but until I absolutely have no choice ...


I believe StarDoc should start another pool to see how users are feel about Vista new "features" .

License Limitations for activation?

How stupid is this?

Just an example:
A professional graphic designer, audio engineer (professional recording studio) or other industry pro may upgrade his RAM, sound and graphics cards, CPU's or Motherboard several times over a relatively short period of time.

1 year is a long time in the software/hardware industry. Things become out-of-date fast.
What happens then?
Upgrading hardware is a normal and natural occurance. MS know this. Personally, I have re-activated XP several times over the past few years after reinstalls. Colleagues have done this also. One in particular has reinstalled XP 25 times. These are all professional users who know what they are doing.

So why the unnatural limits on activation?

There can be no other reason, given the facts, that it will generate extra sales from the same user users.

This in turn will generate animosity (bad feelings) from those users, and the result of that, in some cases, will be those users turning to cracked versions of Vista to avoid reactivation.

I'm not condoning it, but thats life.

How totally stupid.

For those of you complaining about Windows Vista, don't get it! WoW.. isn't that so simple? I hate Hyundais, so i'm not gonna get one. Simple. I'm not gonna around and tell everyone not to get Hyundais or complain about it. I just wont' get one.

Oh and about Vista. It has a lot of cool features that Frogboy pointed out. I won't be getting one till SP1 comes out though.

Sevenhertz, I know for a fact that most of this nonsense is completely exaggerated. You can upgrade anything you want, but as long as you keep your original motherboard, you should be fine.

Achillus, if you only had Hyundais or Mitsubishis to choose from, your point might by valid. Better yet, if Hyundais had as much effect on the world economy, and as much publicity as Microsoft, you would be right, too. I'm not a fan of Microsoft, but not a hater as well. I do know, however, why this issue is so heated. I don't like it, but I do understand.

Vista is the next OS, people. You can hate it, but you'll come to it, eventually. And I'm sure it won't be as bad as you imagine.

Well you dont get it then cause this is the main reason why Micro$oft is hated and the market for operative systems is so dreadful; because Micro$oft monopolises the market you really dont have much of a choice. If you want to play games on a computer then you pretty much have to install whatever OS Micro$oft wants you to use, there is no real choice. Linux is neither user friendly or meant for gaming, Mac OS is user friendly but not many game developers support it and if they do its months after the PC release.

My previous post is a threat to Stardock? No, that is just a consequence of me not upgrading to Windows Vista. DirectX 10 is only supported under Windows Vista, and since I am not going to upgrade to Windows Vista, it means that I am not going to buy the games requiring DirectX 10 (which may include future Stardock games if they also require DirectX 10) since they are useless to me. Microsoft is not going to get my money now or in the future, and it just follows that any other future software which requires DirectX 10 is also automatically rejected. If DirectX 10 is ported to Windows XP in the future, then I may (just may) reconsider.

I will stick with Windows XP (Corporate version with no activation) for as long as possible. I am also spending more time on my 2 Macs. As I have said before I do not want to risk the chance of being locked out of my computer and Windows Vista contains just such a functionality. If you think just because you have bought a legitimate copy of Vista then you will be safe from this "Software Protection Platform" locking out your computer, then I can only say you trust Microsoft far too much.

Of course, I and many have said here, that Windows Vista contains nothing compelling enough to persuade me and others to upgrade. Windows XP SP2 is pretty good enough. And I saw someone above saying that "90% (or even more) of the people complaining here, will, almost certainly within the next 12 to 18 months HAVE to buy Vista, because the software we all use will eventually not be supported in XP. So rest easy, Bill will get us on board one way or the other.". I am one of the few ones that probably won't succumb so I have to disagree with him on this point.

For those of you complaining about Windows Vista, don't get it! WoW.. isn't that so simple?
Your argument is meaningless. If it's okay to praise Vista for people who like it, it should be equally okay to post negative comments for people who dislike it.

Yeah ... not to mention that if you like PC gaming then you won't have a choice. You HAVE to get this meaningless OS. Hell, I would prefer giving Microsoft the money for a Premium Vista downgrade just to KEEP my current OS as long as they guaranteed me that they would support it (i.e. put directX 10 in it etc, etc).

Dano

First of all Hi this is my first post here, I've only been playing GCII for a few weeks.

Anyway I noticed this thread and thought that you guys may want the opinion of someone who's had Vista for a while. I appologise if I've not noticed a previous post along similar lines, I've not read the entire thread.

I've got the Ultimate version as I'm a sucker for getting as many bells and whistles as possible.

Anyway Vista is definitely an improvement over XP, it runs faster and uses your systems power far more intelligently and efficiently than XP. It is also far more secure.

After a few days with Vista I didn't want to go back to XP, but still have to for certain things (disc defragging etc) but this situation should be solved soon.

The drivers that came on the Vista DVD are very good this is certainly one major improvement over XP as you can easily run your computer just using default drivers, the only problem at the moment is soundcards but once the manufacturers actually release drivers they should be fine.

I've not noticed a drop in performance whilst gaming in Vista compared to XP if anything games are running better than they did in XP (for me atleast).

To put this in perspective here's a basic overview of my PC specs:
Intel Core 2 Duo E6600
2Gb RAM
256Mb Geforce 7600GT

Just my 2p

I want to buy Vista. I want to give Microsoft my money and have a legal, modern O/S.

I want DX10. The new EVE-Online client is calling to me. Hellgate London looks to be a great game. If DX10 delivers on half the hype I'll be happy.

I want better security.

I think the performance index might help me to avoid buying a game that wants pixelbumprendershader v3.3 when my graphics card only has v3.05.

I want to stop using 'dubious' copies of windows. I don't like using anything I didn't buy and I think the time has come for me to get a 'proper copy' of windows.

I'm even prepared to suck up the shocking cost of a non-upgrade version. The sheer price of these things has always been what has barred from actually buying XP, or win98, or win95...

But I take a look at the anti-piracy systems they built into Vista and I'm put off buying it. The anti-theft features discourage me from buying the product. Not out of some sense of liberalism or protecting my rights, but because I can see so much potential for being branded a thief - because I bought the damn thing! Or I can stick with XP and remain unhindered.

That just isn't right.

I'm worried that Vista will fail a call home check to the MS server and lock me out.
I'm worried that upgrading my hardware will lock me out.
I'm worried that the computer will simply screw up as they sometimes do and I'll find that I've exceeded my 'liscences'.

I want Vista and I'm prepared to pay. But I want piece of mind that once I have paid I will not be branded a thief because their software screwed up.

Do I think Vista is good for the future of PC gaming? Yes I do. But I think its bad for peace of mind and customer service.

Thanks for starting this thread Brad, I've found it helpful even if I'm still undecided on these issues.

This comeing from a developer that started with OS/2? Im shocked!  

It is not just the High End 3D CG apps that depend on OpenGL, a growing number of mid to lower end apps require OpenGL. Microsoft changed the WDDM API from XP to a new one in Vista, which makes using OpenGL apps dicey, until companies like nVidia and ATI catch up.

One big Gotcha! with RTM Vista's installer: Even if you bought Ultimate, You may or may not have Ultimate at the end of the installation! Vista will install the version IT thinks is appropriate for you, based on your hardware.

Unless MS changed things Again, Ultimate Retail has the same number of installs/activations as XP Pro Retail. However, you cannot use in physical install and Virtual Machine. One OR the Other, but not Both.

I ran Beta 2 here, and, I do like it. nVidia's Beta driver supported my FX5500 AGP card. The only issues I had, were from my Old Games, which ran fine in XP Pro and Win98SE. The other issue I had, was Nero and InCD, and both of my HP printers not being recognized (DeskJet 3820 and LaserJet 1018).

I am not about to pay $399 for OS + $800 or more for the video card, just to run a game that costs less than $60. Also, I am one of those that uses 3D CG apps that require OpenGL.

I recently decided my fankenstien computer was just too old so I bought a computer that blows it out of the water it has vista and in just the three days i've had it I have hollowed it out and replaced the modem graphics card and ram and I have had NO problems with it. hell the only problem I had was with City of Heroes doing a vanishing act with the game mouse pointer but that was an easy fix. Every game I own from sims (yes the sims) and homeworld (1&2) to City of Heroes (god it's pretty now) and supreme commander work on it

OH and this is my first post here and wanted to add stop pissing in the cheerios it's a new OS yeah and we all hate change (so it seems) but it's coming and the pitchforks and torches ain't going to help

It doesn't? Vista actually has a larger (in fact, much larger) driver database than Windows XP (not just for new hardware, but even for older hardware). Case in point: Ethernet cards and adapters (more so wired Ethernet than wireless). My motherboard (ASUS P4C800-E Deluxe) is pretty darn old (Intel's own 875P AGPset, AGP 8X, six PCI slots, dates back to 2003), and includes built-in sound, SATA, and gigabit Ethernet support (while the onboard audio comes from ADI, the SATA and Ethernet support both are from Intel). I don't use the onboard sound, but *do* use the onboard SATA and Ethernet support. But the onboard Ethernet is where XP falls down, as it does *not* include drivers for it! Instead, I have to dig up the drivers from the motherboard CD, as the motherboard came out *after* Windows XP. Vista, on the other hand, is much easier: from a bare-metal install, select (and if necessary, format) the target partition/drive, accept the EULA, input the 25-character key, and go do something else for thirty minutes. Make a few final selections when I return (including wallpaper and time zone) and I'll only have *two* drivers left (display and audio) when I see my desktop for the first time. (USB Printer and webcam, from HP and Logitech, respectively? Vista *supports* both; in fact, it auto-updates the Webcam driver utterly without prompting (and it installed the printer driver *already*). TV tuner card? I have the HDTV Wonder, and the first reboot after installing the display driver adds support for the TV tuner (again, without prompting). Sound card? I've had two different sound cards (Audigy 2 ZS when I first installed Vista, and an X-Fi XtremeGamer now). In both cases, drivers and software support were a download away from Creative (the XtremeGamer, which I bought this year, also includes a Vista software and driver CD). In fact, my Mom, who is also running Vista Ultimate, has my Audigy 2 ZS in *her* Dell Dimesion 2400C (as in *Celeron*). Beats the heck out of XP Media Center Edition 2005 (which Vista Ultimate replaced). Number of games that I played in XP that I can't play in Vista: none. I lost all of *one* application upgrading from XP to Vista (and that application was replaced by functionality built into Vista itself). Game performance loss moving from XP to Vista: also none. If anything, the much fewer number of crashes and BSODs (due to increased driver and OS stability) has been a performance gain. Yes, among the games I play in Vista Ultimate today is GalCiv II Gold. (At least once a week, usually as the Terran Empire.))

Agreed, Brad. In fact, I'll tackle your ticks one at a time: 1. The benchmarking is broken down into easy to understand categories (with separate ones for desktop and gaming graphics performance). While some GPUs perform better in terms of desktop graphics than gaming graphics (ATI's R3xx, which includes the 9700 and 9800, falls into this category), some perform better in gaming than on the desktop (RV515, also from ATI, is in this group; my X1650 PRO AGP scores a 4.6 in desktop graphics, but a 4.9 in gaming graphics), while some are, of course, overall stars (ATI Radeon HD 3850, their latest and greatest in AGP graphics is in this group), while still others overall stink (such as most onboard/built-in graphics on the motherboard). 2. The Games Explorer doesn't just support Games for Windows-type titles (such as C&C 3), but even games that predate Vista, (such as Guild Wars: Prophecies) as well as casual games and even those included with the operating system (such as Spider Solitaire, Hold 'Em, and Luxor 2: Amun Rising). 3. I have no children, but you can actively have games sort in the Games Explorer by ESRB rating or by performance requirement, or simply in alphabetical order. 4. Not just DirectX 10 (which my GPU doesn't support), but there are features unique to Vista that games can use. I mentioned Luxor 2 earlier (a casual game): there are features unique to the Designed for Windows Vista version that are not available in Windows XP, even on the same hardware (mostly having to do with graphical effects), and I'm referring to hardware not even capable of supporting DirectX 10 at all. The same is true, naturally, of applications that deal with the desktop (such as WindowBlinds 6). 5. Casual and lightweight game performance is improved because the stability of the rest of the operating system is much improved, even over XP. This is true not only of Luxor 2, but of a pair of Stardock's own titles: GalCiv II Gold and Sins of a Solar Empire. (Remember, GalCiv II Gold requires nothing more than Windows 98 or newer, and Sins requires only Windows XP or Vista. However, I had stability issues with GalCiv II in XP (and this was the non-Gold version), while GC II Gold is stable in Vista *on the same hardware*. The only change was the operating system. For that reason, I wouldn't dare even try Sins on XP.)

I'm a fairly careful (PC health-oriented) "power user," and it might just be luck of the draw, but I've never had a worse new PC experience than with my current brand-name, mid-range Vista box, acquired last August. And I've way lost count of the PCs in my life...

Although I've not been brought to a grinding hault either working or playing, I've lost countless hours to struggling with odd problems and have lost all confidence in my ability to know whether my system is hacked or just doing some bizarre thing that is "by design." SP1 has been no improvement, so maybe the new mantra should be "never before SP2."

p.s. My vexation with Vista does not include GC2 performance, which is so outrageously better than it was on my old sub-spec XP box that I can hardly believe the game runs on both of them.

I can give you one reason why its BAD for gaming - games crash .
Simply games that runs fine under XP - crash.

I do not know is it NVIDIA driver to blame or something else but this one reason beats 1,000 "why it's good" reasons.

I've been around a while and find the Vista debate old hat. I started with CPM (anyone remember that?), and have upgraded over the years. My philosophy has been to wait on new MS operating systems until they have been out a while. Since NT that has meant waiting on the first service pack. Since Vista has just released SP1, I wonder how many of the complaints will be addressed. I'm currently running XP and plan to continue to do so until I buy a new computer. THEN I'll get Vista. BTW, don't buy one with home basic. It seems to have all of the disadvantages and none of the advantages.

i found vista to be fine, as good as xp anyway.

All the noise is a re-run of XP release, all the noise then was a re-run of Win 98 release ..... it'll always be that way. When you are World No1 in a Market Segment you have a large Bullseye painted on your Butt labeled "Kick Me"

Those lower down the Food chain in a market segment always play on the fact that the No1 "is being ... beastly to me - 'snif' "

I'll bet my pension the fuss dies down in the end, Vista settles - apart from Professional Moaners. Corporates will eventually transfer to it, and we will all forget we moaned and that it does contain 5Million lines of code to enable everything on the Planet to operate.

Life's too short to compete to be the first to spot a new glitch in the Beast .....

Regards
Zy

I`ve been using 32 bit vista home premium for a few months now, I like it for the most part. My only problem with it...Vista alway`s seems to be accessing the hard drive or doing something on it`s own. I`ve shut down file indexing, Superfetch, Any non essential service is disabled. It still won`t stop. I`ve tried stardock`s tweak vista trial and didn`t see anything there that might stop it. Maybe in the full version? I`ve seen this same issue all over the internet. If anyone knows how to stop this, I would really appreciate hearing it.

Thnx