Espionage exploit II

I've also had a problem with this aspect of the espionage system. As far as I'm concerned, if I can see what's on a planet, that's even more important to me than sabotaging any one tile.

You don't need an agent to look at a planet. Just click the 'spy' button. This only works if you are at peace with that race. When at war, a high rating is needed. I'm pretty sure the AI can see you as well. We have always been able to see a planet, the difference now, is, it's free.

I agree, being able to see everybody's planet tiles for free is an exploit, but I don't know what else Stardock could do? It seems to me you should permanently commit an agent to a planet before you get to see it.

What about a mix of the old and the new system?

You would have to split your espionage efforts towards generic espionage (as in DL) and towards the training of spies (as in DA beta 2b)

In order to be able to send a spy on the planet of a specific opponent, you would first have to commit funds on a per week basis for generic espionage (as in DL) in order to attain a certain level, say advanced.

Then would you be given the option to send a spy for specific sabotage missions.

Interesting idea, farkas. To further your idea: perhaps planetary improvements could become partially visible as your increase through the spying levels. At very low spying you might only see one or two buildings; at very high you'd see everything. At any level you'd be able to see that a space was occupied, but you'd be unable to place a spy on it without additional spying.

In any case, even without the idea suggested above, I'm hoping that at some point we get a old/new hybrid system, such as you suggest. First DA update, anyone?

I would be happy with the current system if only three changes were made.
-the spy placement screen would not show the name of the planet being viewed until a certain espionage level was reached
-any method of opening the spy placement screen before reaching the previously mentioned espionage level would result in a random planet being displayed, cycling could proceed from there as normal
-before reaching the previously mentioned espionage level, only planets that have been revealed on the map would be available to cycle through

With these changes you would maintain the current ability to view the buildup of your opponents, without the tactical advantage gained from knowing which planet corresponds to which set of improvements. On smaller maps one could potentially deduce which planet was which by comparing known PQs and textures to the placement screen, but this could only be done with certainty on small or sparsely populated maps.

I've lost my train of thought, hopefully some of the other benefits are readily apparent.

Or it could be you see the tiles on the planet and you can use an agent to discover what building is there. Maybe a two-turn process so that there is a good chance he will die, then you see what the tile is and go straight to disabling it.

Personally, when I go to war I find their main factory worlds and gut them first. With fewer ships against me and the capability to make them faster and closer to the fight, most wars don't last long.

Hi!

- the spy placement screen would not show the name of the planet being viewed until a certain espionage level was reached

Or it could be you see the tiles on the planet and you can use an agent to discover what building is there. Maybe a two-turn process so that there is a good chance he will die, then you see what the tile is and go straight to disabling it.

Maybe a combo would be appropriate:

- non-discovered planets (not found by my ships) aren't displayed on the spy placement screen,
- every spy spying on the opponent's planet has a chance to discover a non-discovered planet. If it does, the planet is also show on the main galactic map.
- when a spy is placed on a planet, it explores it's surface: each turn a number of tiles become visible. The number corresponds to the level of espionage tech the spy-owner has. Super-spy explores with double speed, or even all surface at once.

My 2 cents.

BR, Iztok

Well something needs to be doned to Espionage system IMHO.

I did have a little voice in back of my head whispering that checking out planets without actually planting spies was too easy. I do not know which way of handling this problem would be the best as I think the whole Espionage system at its current state is way too shallow.

The whole espionage scheme can be wrapped up in the following phrase, disable building, nullify another spy. This really does not get me too excited

All good ideas.
As Frogboy stated many times... "it's just a matter of how hard is to translate that to the AI tactics"

My CC (Credit Card)

checking out planets without actually planting spies was too easy.

All it would take is a telescope. I assume those will still be around in 2226.

All it would take is a telescope. I assume those will still be around in 2226.

I'm not sure why there's such a thing as fog of war, with telescopes and all...

Hi!

All it would take is a telescope. I assume those will still be around in 2226.

Yeah, but you'd be looking 3.2 years into the past with each parsec to the scanned object. Game would likely be over before you'd notice your closest neighbour has built the second building on his HW.

BR, Iztok

Yeah, but you'd be looking 3.2 years into the past with each parsec to the scanned object. Game would likely be over before you'd notice your closest neighbour has built the second building on his HW.

game over before you got started bummer

Also remember, the parsecs are the space traveled in bent hyperspace. The actual distances between planets could be hundreds of lightyears. All a telescope might tell you is that those silly backwards humans have finally developed advanced technologies like agriculture.

Also remember, the parsecs are the space traveled in bent hyperspace

Actually, no. It can't be, simple math will tell you that. c is still the limit in normal/bent space, so you can't travel several parsecs in a week.

I got FortyTwo's point. You're warp-travelling in bent hyperspace; a telescope operates in normal space and therefore wouldn't be effective. That brings up an odd thing, though: wouldn't you be able to warp to another planet and then observe yourself?

You're warp-travelling in bent hyperspace;

If you're in bent hyperspace, then you're "warp-travelling", but you can never exceed the speed of light.

wouldn't you be able to warp to another planet and then observe yourself?

?! This doesn't make sense. Whatever emissions you radiate during travel (in hyperspace) will reach the destination before you (they travel at light speed, you don't).

All it would take is a telescope.

You can also mount one on a ship. My point is that planetary improvements would be plainly visible. I don't recall us ever sending spies to Mars. During wartime, however, certain measures could be taken to attempt to camouflage important facilities. The Germans and Japanese did this, with some success, during WW2; but only after they were forced by circumstance, and then only with enormous expense and difficulty.

If you're in bent hyperspace, then you're "warp-travelling", but you can never exceed the speed of light.

Correct. Part of the problem here is that the use of the word "parsec" to describe an individual tile on the map is a misnomer. In-game, each parsec isn't 3.26 light years - one tile represents greater non-hyperspace distances when further from massive bodies and less when closer to them. It obviously isn't 7+ LYs from Mars to Jupiter, for example. (The "official" explanation is in the DA manual, pg. 28.)

In any case, the same problems apply: a planetary-based telescope simply wouldn't work for intelligence gathering. However,

You can also mount one on a ship.

If your ship is one or two tiles from the planet you're trying to observe, the light would only take hours or days to get to you, so a telescope would work.

I don't recall us ever sending spies to Mars.

Of course not. Probes and remote missions are hardly spies...
And I guess an alien structure is easily recognizable as a farm or a lab, they usually come with a neon sign...

If your ship is one or two tiles from the planet you're trying to observe, the light would only take hours or days to get to you, so a telescope would work.

Unless you're in hyperspace...
And isn't that what the survey module should do, if there was some kind of sense in scanners?

I agree that I find the ability to place spies on race planets for which you cannot normally view them as an exploit.

The new DA exploit system confuses me - how did I reach espionage levels in DL? I can't remember. All I see is allocation of funds for making spies. I too would be interested in a split of the fund allocation - part towards race espionage, part towards spymaking. You are then only allowed to place spies on race planets for which you have a HIGH espionage rating.

Also, you should only be able to place spies on planets you've revealed - ones still shrouded should not be visible.

That would be good. Of course, the costs for both types of espionage may need to be tweaked down a little to compensate.