1) the U.S. is a democratic *republic* (limited gov't) and 2) the material comfort level is from a fairly free continent-wide market.

No argument on on #1. I think I was in part argueing the superiority of a democratic republic over a pure democracy. Let the people think they have power, but really they only have limited influence...

I would argue that #2 is a chicken and the egg scenario. We partially have such a large and free market because we have had lots of stability. Parts of the world that are politically unstable are incapable of producing large and free markets.

Being U.S. centric for a moment...There isn't any real impetus to break up into little nation states (Europe seems to be operating under the opposite influence recently). Most people do recognize to some degree that they are benefiting from all the trade that occurs within the U.S. according to a relatively fixed set of rules. This is a reasonable expectation that those rules will not change suddenly. These are all factors of stability. They do not necessarily require democracy, but they, historically, are easier with democracy. Notice no mention of the word capitalism. Rule of Law is at least as important as capitalism, and probably more important. I wouldn't build a two legged stool as the support underneath U.S. success, but rather a three legged stool of democracy (representative), rule of law, and capitalism.

There is also a big break between what will work for a small homogeneous country and what will work for a large country.

That being said, China seems to be intent on having both limited capitalism and a large authoritarian state. So far they seem to be pulling it off with great success. I have heard China referred to as a "mature fascist state" and if you look at the social and economic policies of the national socialist and then look at China, this does appear to be a fair characterization.

Rule of Law is at least as important as capitalism, and probably more important. I wouldn't build a two legged stool as the support underneath U.S. success, but rather a three legged stool of democracy (representative), rule of law, and capitalism.

I would make that a 4 legged stool and add an element of morality (Judeo-Christian, thank you very much, or at least Natural Law based) that must permeate society or else we would descend into quite a nasty mess...

I have heard China referred to as a "mature fascist state"

Oh yeah, speaking of the devil...

(flame away)

Cheers!

PS: Wishing I could find more time to address sooo many interesting topics in this wriggly little thread!

WTF!?! Is this site still having problems?

Okay, guess I have to repost...
I see that this thread, as well as the "Mumble made me do it" has died and I felt that it was time to resuscitate it once more since these little breaks from game talk are needed from time to time and it also allows us to see a little more of our fellow forum member's character, lending a little bit of a personal atmosphere to the very impersonal internet as a whole. So now without further ado...
The other day at work we were talking about thieves in general. Almost everyone had a slightly different take on it, with some saying a thief is a thief while others contended that there were different levels of 'thievery', each holding it's own attributes and requirements.
My opinion is that there are different levels. A kid who steals a bottle of whiskey from his parent's stash isn't necessarily a thief, even if his action fits the definition perfectly. I will leave it with that and see if anyone else cares to add their two cents worth or at least add something to this so that we may keep the spirit of debate and conversation alive and well in here, without touching on the game so much in doing so.

Hey, Evil S is stealing my thread!

Counter-digression: I liked seeing this thing sprawl and live long also, but maybe some new OT threads would be fun, like "What's a Thief?" It'd certainly save some time catching up for anyone who took an interest mid-sprawl.

Back onto Evil's digression: I'm a recovering postmodernist (not recovering so well, alas), so I usually end up thinking both that "a theif's a thief" and that stealing might be OK (or even good) sometimes. OK is something like stealing food from an abundant supply for your starving family. Good is something like stealing all the C4 from your crazy uncle's basement so he can't blow any stuff up and you don't have to get the cops involved. Might be good to steal the keys to the gun cabinet on the way out...

I am in the same camp as GW on this one as well.

Back onto Evil's digression: I'm a recovering postmodernist (not recovering so well, alas), so I usually end up thinking both that "a theif's a thief" and that stealing might be OK (or even good) sometimes. OK is something like stealing food from an abundant supply for your starving family. Good is something like stealing all the C4 from your crazy uncle's basement so he can't blow any stuff up and you don't have to get the cops involved. Might be good to steal the keys to the gun cabinet on the way out...

This is an example of the "human dimension" I mentioned earlier. Terms can be coldly defined, penalties can be legislated, but Justice requires viewing these things as an organic whole, taken in the proper context.

Now, this doesn't mean that I am a moral relativist by any stretch of the imagination...

For instance, are there circumstances when killing another person is morally acceptable? Are there practical consequences for such actions, like stealing from an abundant source to feed your family given as an example above?

In our rush as a society to be "diverse" and "non-judgemental", we (I can only speak for general conditions in the USA) have eliminated any reasonable standards and definitions, leaving the next generation barren of some core moral precepts that we have taken for granted for millenia. It may be true that we are born to a certain degree with a "moral compass", but a compass is only useful when there is a North Pole to be measured against...

While we're digressing, we are also breaking down the protocols for effective communication by allowing language to be rendered meaningless. If we are to be a society founded on the Rule of Law, it would be prudent to maintain a healthy respect for language and the meaning of words, lest we slip into a dictatorship of unelected Judges...

Cheers!

Justice requires viewing these things as an organic whole, taken in the proper context.

Ahhh, but isn't lady justice 'supposed' to be blind?

Counter-digression: I liked seeing this thing sprawl and live long also, but maybe some new OT threads would be fun, like "What's a Thief?" It'd certainly save some time catching up for anyone who took an interest mid-sprawl.

You post them with such eloquent titles that I was kind of leaving it to you G.W. to open up that door!

Hey, Evil S is stealing my thread!

Quite sorry G.W., you know I had no 'evil' intent with this... but you were leaving this poor post to rot on the side of the road so I indulged myself!

Yay FireFox has a built in spellchecker.
It helps so much. It takes ten minuets to get Maximum.
It is very useful.

Grammar nazis point out grammar and spelling mistakes because they otherwise have nothing of value to contribute. It's really that simple.

Good grammar usage and spelling lends an air of professionalism to a post. A post that has something controversial is more likely to be taken seriously if the poster uses proper English.

So in other words: Someone who isnt an english native speaker probably wont be taken seriously because english isnt his first language?

Internet is global so I think aslong as you can make yourself understood then I dont see reason to care about proper grammer and such.

Only by those that really believe that the Internet is serious business.

The rest of us will make do.

I would make that a 4 legged stool and add an element of morality (Judeo-Christian, thank you very much, or at least Natural Law based) that must permeate society or else we would descend into quite a nasty mess.

I dont know about Judeo but US definetely does not have christian morality. Christian morality is and always will be pacifistic and non violence so US with the biggest and most advanced army which it regularly uses to invade other countries can in no way be regarded as such.

Also you have one of the most liberal laws regarding wearing guns. Which also is not compatible with christian morality.

Furthermore US is one of the biggest armsdealers in the world...

I would rather say that the fourth leg in your "stool" would be imperialism as your country has repeateadly overthrown or helped overthrow foreign nations goverments because it was in the interest of your nation to do so. Aswell as supporting ruthless dictators for the same reason.

So please, dont try to portray your nation and actions as being based on christian morality. Im a christian and I dont want to be associated with all the violence that your goverment and companies are directly or indirectly the cause of.

Ok... first time back in awhile.

Swicord, congratulations on your first metaverse game. You're a credit to the Empire.

Evil, glad you're still around.

To everyone in this thread that is either (a) an illiterate fraktard or (b) an illiterate fraktard apologist, you have no excuse: contemplate exiting any reality we might share by any means necessary.

Welcome back. I see your hiatus didn't help improve your mood

Or the precision of your snarky-talk Didn't another thread cover how silly it is to *type* to tell someone you think they're illiterate? Just a few more syllables and your insult would be sturdier: "ill-read and inarticulate" or something like that.

Better yet, try calmly holding your head high as you display literacy and non-fraktardness. If you avoid the simple rhetoric of insults and keep pecking away with nuggets of reason, you might actually help repair or remove the thinking behind the writing that vexes you.

p.s. Wheel, you might get some ironic satisfaction out of two facts: This week I've been added to the new Metaverse Council (check out the Core), and my nomination was a mild controversy b/c I joined the Empire of Standards and have been caught in public "defending" you

Didn't realize you had joined us G.W.! Glad to 'hear' it. And Wheeloffire it is great to see you back in here. I was beginning to think I'd been abandoned. As you probably already saw, the Metaverse has been getting some sorely lacking attention. I tried to nominate you into the panel, but at least we have a rep. Oh, incidentally, my area now has hi-speed internet available so I am almost there (posting on the Meta that is)and will hopefully be able to 'contribute' to the Empire.
ALL HAIL OUR MIGHTY LEADER!!! HE HAS RETURNED!!!!! YAAAAAAAAHOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!
Okay, so maybe that was a bit much Wheel, but it IS really good to see you back.

Wow. I've thought precisely nothing about GC2 for a few months now. Looks like I left some scarred people in my wake.

Glad to be such an issue for you that more traditional issues didn't pop up _at_all_. So, in the world of Galactic Civilizations and it's fans, you're dealing with a very progressive group--good and "evil."

Rock on.

Evil, glad to be back. I'll setup an Empire of Standards thread so I don't hijack this one.